Okay ... this isn't directly related to this post ... but something I've been wanting to ask of the other posters ...

I've noticed that come the weekend, the comments on GGW seem to slow to a trickle. I wonder why that is. Intuitively, I'd expect the opposite to occur. During the week people are busy working their regular jobs ... posting here and there when they have a breather (or want to take a mental break from work). But you'd expect community activists (as I think we all define ourselves if we post on here) to do their main posting eves and weekends when we have the free time to really contribute to our causes. Any thoughts on why folks aren't really ramping up their comments/activism on the weekend when they have the most time to do so?

by Lance on Dec 4, 2009 10:24 am  

I got questions in on Ghost Buses and opening up the NextBus feed. Let's see.

by HM on Dec 4, 2009 10:27 am  

We'd have better vending options if it wasn't such a political hot potato with councilmembers looking to protect long-time hot dog vendors from actual competition from new entrants.

by Fritz on Dec 4, 2009 10:28 am  

@Lance

Because some of us have lives?

by MPC on Dec 4, 2009 11:03 am  

@Lance:
It's for a few reasons (IMO):

1) There are lots of posts on weekdays. There are few on the weekends.

2) People have lives. They are enjoying their time off from the daily grind.

3) People post while at work, while goofing off.

by AtWork on Dec 4, 2009 11:04 am  

CHRS does not want street cars PERIOD.

What they really want is more surface parking.

by w on Dec 4, 2009 11:42 am  

Actually, in the MDP's baseline scenario, the developed area of Maryland would increase a little over 54%. In their smart growth scenario it would increase about 12.5%. The 500,000 acres predicted to be "preserved" under the smart growth scenario represents about 8% of Maryland's total landmass.

by David Daddio on Dec 4, 2009 12:07 pm  

Matt Yglesias has a good point on this here.

by Dan Miller on Dec 4, 2009 12:10 pm  

"this"="blog comments on weekdays"

by Dan Miller on Dec 4, 2009 12:14 pm  

The overhead wire thing is so stupid. Everyone go out this weekend and take one photo of an existing overhead wire in the L'enfant city and post it on this thread. You'll find plenty of them, including in capitol hill. This is an anti-streetcar thing, not an anti-overhead wire thing.

by JTS on Dec 4, 2009 12:26 pm  

I think it's important that we preserve the downtown DC and not let ugly overhead wires get in the way.

It would be more than reasonable to delay things a bit to get it right. I'm surprised more people aren't asking questions about the issue...

by MPC on Dec 4, 2009 12:30 pm  

JTS

you are dead on target

It is exactly that- a pro- auto mobile, anti transit and NIMBY posturing to delay the streetcar implementation.

The old farts in the CHRS love their damn cars and wants lots and lots of room to park- and dammned to those who might bicycle, walk or take transit.

They also do not want young people or families moving in here.

Go to one of their meetings at CHRS- it is a retirement community.

CHRS = AAA + AARP

by w on Dec 4, 2009 12:33 pm  

@AtWork, I hear you ... but that's my point. People who really care about issues, make these issues their lives ... as David has done. And those are the folks who get heard when all is said and done.

We all think the Internet and it's blogs and the like is a wonderful thing for encouraging and enabling people to get involved. But are they really involved ... if they can't take the time fight for their issues on 'their own time'?

by Lance on Dec 4, 2009 1:30 pm  

Because reading and typing doesn't take much of a commitment. I'm not even trying to be sarcastic when I say that. Many people simply don't have the time to protest every weekend so that they can get a streetcar line in S.E. DC. They have other commitments like children and such.

by MPC on Dec 4, 2009 1:44 pm  

I think people participating online are making a commitment. It's not as much of one as going to meetings, but as MPC said, some people can't do that. Should civic engagement be limited only to those people whose family and work commitments allow them time to go to meetings? Their opinions and desires matter too.

by David Alpert on Dec 4, 2009 1:50 pm  

And I will grant you that those posters who take the time to write topics for you are showing ture commitment since it takes time ... personal time to research and write the articles. But are you actually getting commitment in terms of people showing up at hearings to support your positions, volunteering their time/money to govt reps to support your positions, and all the other ways by which policy decisions in the end get made ...?

by Lance on Dec 4, 2009 2:03 pm  

The statement here is still not right. I read the CHRS resolution. It doesn't oppose streetcars with overhead wires. It calls for a study of alternatives to wires. That is a lot more reasonable and I think the characterization here is unfair.

by David desJardins on Dec 4, 2009 2:16 pm  

I post during the week because I'm at work.
I don't post on weekends because I'm busy and have stuff to do.

by spookiness on Dec 4, 2009 2:17 pm  

Dick Wolfe, President of the CHRS, has written repeatedly of his opposition to any new streetcars .

He is all in favor of more parking for Hines, and the CHRS in general opposses most new busisnesses - as RG pointed out once on this blog- the CHRS was all in favor of turning the commercial corridor of 8th street SE into exclusively residential back in the 90's before the crime went down and the real estate boom came into play.

these people are NIMBYs plain and simple- they are on the WRONG side of real progress.

by w on Dec 4, 2009 2:23 pm  

@Lance:

Maybe these activists post all week from work because they happen to be at work, then on weekends don't post because they are out actually doing activism-type activities. Like in the real world. On "their own time". Using "their own time" to perform physical activities to further these causes. Ever think of that?

by CW on Dec 4, 2009 2:55 pm  

Lance, I do activism in the real world as much as I write for GGW. You don't see me since I'm a Montgomery County resident but I do activism in my county of residence for Smart Growth.

Both my writing and my activism in on my own time.

by Cavan on Dec 4, 2009 3:15 pm  

w is largely right. CHRS is dominated by a faction that bucks any change, even for the better. They moaned about even the mildest re-write of the 1950s zoning code, and lately, the city is ignoring them wholesale. They lost a major preservation case, a Mayor's Agent case involving the expansion of the Heritage Foundation property in the 200 block of Pa Ave., they are litigating over the 11th Street bridge project, and I fully expect them to litigate over streetcars too, if the project gets that far. Last I heard they were going to appeal the Mayor's Agent case to the DC Court of Appeals. They are the party of "NO" on the Hill, albeit a deep-pocketed party of NO.

by Paul on Dec 4, 2009 4:45 pm  

The full text of the CHRS Resolution:
RESOLUTION SUPPORTING STREET CARS WITHOUT OVERHEAD WIRES IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
November 17, 2009
WHEREAS , the District of Columbia Government has announced a plan to introduce a 38 mile, $1.5 billion dollar new street car system on to the streets and avenues of the city; and
WHEREAS, a properly designed streetcar system could improve public transportation and do so at less cost than a below grade rail system and,
WHEREAS, the streetcar system, once installed will be in place for decades and
WHEREAS, the L’Enfant Plan for Washington (generally, the area south of Florida Avenue/Benning Road, west of the Anacostia River, sometimes referred to as the “old city”) is on the National Register of Historic Places; and
WHEREAS, the L’Enfant Plan’s status on the National Register of Historic Places is a bar to the wires and the various supporting structures which might impose on the streets and avenues, and the District’s Comprehensive Plan protects vistas, open spaces, natural settings and public thoroughfares, and the National Capital Planning Commission (NCPC) has correctly described Washington as one of the most significant wire-free transportation networks in the world; and
WHEREAS, the NCPC in carrying out its duties to protect the Federal interest in Washington, has informed District representatives that it would defend against wires in the L’Enfant Plan streets; and
WHEREAS, Washington is a planned city with vital vistas and views that make it unique in the world, and those views are located throughout Washington, including areas outside the L’Enfant Plan that deserve protection from unsightly overhead wires used to power streetcars , now:
THEREFORE, it is hereby resolved by Capitol Hill Restoration Society that before any further official action is taken to introduce a streetcar system to the District of Columbia, the City should conduct a study of streetcar powering systems that are not dependent on overhead wires, including systems in, Charlotte, NC, the U.S. and in Europe and other parts of the world.

by Monte Edwards on Dec 5, 2009 8:35 pm  

I'm still trying to figure out what CHRS means by citing Charlotte specifically.

I've only been able to find presentations like this one:

http://www.hydrail.org/docs/5_nadolny-1.pdf

This only shows that Charlotte is interested in having a no-wires system. They cite the same alternative systems already discussed, including magnetic induction, intermittent contact, ultracapacitor and battery powered systems. To my knowledge, they don't actually have such a system, but they're looking into the matter.

Their resolution might also refer to the heritage system re-started in 1996. Due to a lack of funding at first, the historic trolleys were powered not by overhead wires, but by a diesel generator that was towed behind the passenger vehicle. Later, when more funding was available, the line must have been upgraded to full overhead system because all the photos on the page show overhead contact system.

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/charlotte.htm

I've written to some people in Charlotte to confirm.

Interesting to note that CHRS's resolution goes beyond opposing overhead wires within the L'Enfant City, and basically opposes them everywhere within Washington, DC.

It's also interesting that being on the register of historic places would somehow be a bar to overhead wire systems, which have been in use since the late 1800's, historic enough for my tastes.

by Michael Perkins on Dec 6, 2009 3:59 pm  

Hello Michael,

I understand that in September Charlotte, NC voted for a Hydotrolly system (hydrogen fuel cell powered)
See: http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/hydrolley
There has been mention of the Charlotte system being the federal demonstration site for DOT/FTA funding.
I'm not able to attach it to this comment, but if you email me, I can send you a PowerPoint link, describing the system, which plans to use a mix of heritage and modern streetcars.
I'll be interested in what your contacts in Charlotte can tell us.

Regards,
Monte

by Monte Edwards on Dec 6, 2009 8:27 pm  

So they voted for an unproven, uninvented, unfunded, single-vendor technology and are touting its cost benefits?

Look, I'm pretty interested in the potential technologies, like APS, but that blog and its product are pure vaporware.

Why not just make the catenary better looking?

by Neil Flanagan on Dec 6, 2009 9:33 pm  

The blog has a lot of hype, but it's reasonable to think that fuel cell rail vehicles are going to be practical in the moderately near future, and it does seem reasonable to think about future technology when installing rail infrastructure that's going to be around for many decades.

by David desJardins on Dec 6, 2009 9:39 pm  

Sounds like something DOT and DOE should jointly fund as a pilot program rather than make a city pay the increased costs of being first.

Especially when it's a federal mandate the city has no control over.

by Michael Perkins on Dec 7, 2009 6:29 am  

Hello Michael,

Yes, I agree that streetcars should receive federal funding. And congress has enacted legislation to do so. In 1992 there was the Intermodal Surface Transportation and Efficiency Act (ISTEA) that established the Federal Transportation Administration's "New Starts Program" that encouraged new rail systems. In 2005, the Safe Accountable Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU) created a "Small Starts Program" for less expensive public transportation projects like streetcars.

However, as explained by U.S. Congressman Peter DeFrazio, Chair of the House Subcommittee on Highway and Transit:

"... unfortunately, the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) biased its approach so that streetcars have been unable to obtain funding."
* * *
"Streetcar advocates lost time and momentum during the eight years of the Bush Administration. But I am confident that the Obama Administration will get us back on track. SAFET-LU expires[ed] on September 30, 2009, and we have begun our efforts in Congress to craft a bold new vision for the nation's surface transportation system."

Working to make that happen is the American Public Transportation and the Community Streetcar Coalition, whose publication, STREET SMART was the source of the above quotes. Jeff Boothe is a partner is the DC office of Holland and Knight and serves as executive Director of the Community Streetcar Coalition.

by Monte Edwards on Dec 7, 2009 4:18 pm  

Quote:A stronger Smart Growth policy would save 500,000 rural acres from development in Maryland over the next 20 years

RE- After reading the prejections from that opinionated Blog Site there os noo way that they can reduce 500,00 rural acres from Development...

Wishful thinking but that will not happen especially since nearby states like Virginia continues to rapidly Develop..

Sorry....

by Steve on Dec 7, 2009 11:42 pm  

Monte Edwards, I like your resolution!

How great it would be if Greater Greater and the Queen City would make common cause in pursuit of hydrogen wireless streetcar innovation!

Charlotte has not yet committed to "go wireless." Their engineering firm has been instructed to consider wireless. As a neighbor (and the one guilty of coining the term "hydrolley" and predicting its "manifest destiny" future in APTA's Passenger Transport in early 2007), I think it's likely that the political risk of investing $60MM+ in the world's last catenary streetcar will eventually outweigh the dread of the new and the incompletely proved (hydrogen hybrid buses around the world are a close proof-of-concept).

Given the new wireless developments by Siemens, Bombardier, Alstom, Kawasaki and Shanghai Transit, I'd give the odds that Charlotte will choose some wireless tech as about 9-to-1. That said, they haven't decided yet. And if they do go wireless, and if a hydrolley demonstration hasn't happened in time, then clean, small, diesel gensets charging battery-dominant hybrid streetcars would not be bad as placeholders for future hydrolleys.

Diesels can be swapped later for fuel cells.

But catenaries, like herpes, are forever.

by Stan Thompson on Dec 9, 2009 1:54 am  

hydrogen hybrid buses around the world are a close proof-of-concept

Unfortunately, they prove the concept that if you want to spend a million dollars per bus, you can find a way to do it. Who knows when fuel-cell vehicles will be economically feasible. I hope it's soon, but there are no guarantees.

by David desJardins on Dec 9, 2009 5:57 am  

David, re "who knows the answer" it's those who have been immersed in the issue for years, spoken in various countries at conferences on the transition, conferred in Washington with the FTA, been supported and written about the change for years in APTA's Passenger Transport and the IEEE's Spectrum.

One who knows is pursuing the world's first Ph.D. in hydrail at the University of Pisa.

Who knows if we'll revert to cathode ray tube displays or hybrid cars will go away? Possible, yes, but most unlikely.

Re H2 buses, somebody in British Columbia thinks they know; they ordered 20 hydrogen buses for the Winter Olympics.

In Charlotte, catenary cost $1.75 per mile in 2002. In 2007 it was calculated at $6 million per mile; this for a technology that has already begun to be replaced in Europe and Asia.

Who knew if there would be another flying machine after the Wright Brothers succeeded? Change was in the air then. It's on the rails now.

A bus needs five to seven times the energy of a streetcar and about 50% more labor to move the same passenger load.

As to cost, how much did the first transistor cost? How much does one cost today on an LSI chip in your lap-top?

Don't bet against change.

by Stan Thompson on Dec 10, 2009 10:56 am  

@Stan, are we talking internal combustion H2 buses or fuel cell H2 buses (for British Columbia)?

by Michael Perkins on Dec 10, 2009 11:20 am  

Fuel cells, I believe, and with a substantial hybrid battery.

Until the economoy tanked, there was also to have been a vintage electric interurban railcar retrofit as hydrail. I expect that will happen eventually but not in time for the Olympics. Google FVHRS.

by Stan Thompson on Dec 10, 2009 11:26 am  

No, the zealots are the LAST people you should ask about feasibility. Enthusiasts are useful when it comes to creating desire and possibility for change, but it takes actual scientists and engineers inventing and building actual technology that actually works, before it can be deployed. The Winter Olympics can afford to spend several times the usual cost per bus, as a demonstration project. Ordinary cities can't, so they have to wait until the technology exists that is competitive on price. I am not saying that will never happen. I'm saying it doesn't exist now. Making up words like "hydrail" doesn't change that.

by David desJardins on Dec 10, 2009 12:54 pm  

David, if you visit the University's web page, http://www.hydrail.org, and check the presenters' bios, you'll see that virtually all the presenters at the International Hydrail Conferences are exactly the Ph.D. scientists and/or government agency experts and industrialists you invoke. This year one presenter was CEO of a transit vehicle manufacturer. The keynote this year was head of the US FTA's Office of Mobility Innovation. Last year's keynote was from the US DOT Volpe National Transportation Systems Center in Cambridge. The keynote in 2007 was the head of the locomotive design faculty at a major university in India. In 2006 Russia alone sent nine scientists.

Dismissing these people as "enthusiasts" and "zealots" is ungenerous at best.

The word "hydrail" was coined specifically to allow these scientists to find each other's work easily via search engines. It's working; the hydrail site at Appalachian State University is viewed by 600 to 800 unique vistors every month from an average of 55 countries. So far conference presentations have come from the US, Canada, the EU as such, Denmark, France, Italy, Russia, the Netherlands, Spain, India, South Korea, and Japan and the US Embassy in Copenhagen.

If these professionals are "enthusiasts," then the word describes people who prefer to do something about curtailing climate change and diminishing energy security problems rather than waiting around for unnamed "other" scientists to do it (thereby making themselves "enthusiasts" and incurring the same scorn from the uninvolved).

Commerce is moving ahead too...

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20091202/NEWS/912020333/1-300-jobs-hinge-on-bus-company-s-decision

http://news.therecord.com/News/article/241910

...but public issues such as energy and the environment have to pull while business pushes. No one who has ever managed technology change serious believes it's driven by the impulse to find a cheaper way. If cheaper were cleaner and more secure, we wouldn't be having this dialogue about change.

Not all costs are prices; Charlotte, NC—if it were not addressing its air quality non-attainment issue with innovations such as non-polluting transit—could face up to $6 billion in Federal sanctions under the Clean air Act. You could buy quite a few hydrogen hybrid transit vehicles for a tiny fraction of that.

This is not the best of all possible worlds. To make it a even little better requires education and motivation—necessary, even if they're insufficient.

by Stan Thompson on Dec 11, 2009 12:59 am  

Dismissing these people as "enthusiasts" and "zealots" is ungenerous at best.

Not them. Just you.

by David desJardins on Dec 11, 2009 1:01 am