Do the buses really need a low traffic area? Are they really that inconvenient to nearby businesses and traffic? I don't think caving in to this tripe is what we should do. The buses are there for their convenience and flexibility. If you want a intercity travel terminal you have it already, its called UNION STATION. The train should be central, as it is, the bus should compete and its flexibility makes up for a lot.

I smell a rat, and it smells like a dirty dog of a bus line.

by Boots on Jun 23, 2008 2:07 pm  

Given L'Enfant Plaza's incredible Metro access and convenient location to the highways out of town, I'd like to know whether we could put the loading zone in L'Enfant Plaza as DDOT suggests and use that as the nucleus of a plan to develop that site into something actually desirable.

by cminus on Jun 23, 2008 2:10 pm  

Assuming the buses are actually a problem that requires a change in location (and I'm not totally convinced of that, as it seems like a little enforcement of laws already on the books - such as idling, blocking bus stops, loading docks, etc - could go a long way to solve these problems), why not use the Convention Center lot as a temporary site - and then evaluate all the options? Why not get the buses onto the less trafficked streets in Chinatown - i.e. shading over towards Judiciary Sq, where the streets all end up dead ending into 395.

by Alex B. on Jun 23, 2008 2:21 pm  

A few comments about the general Chinatown area. I take as a given that a bus depot would be beneficial, if only to soothe the nerves of first-time users.

1. Old Convention Center. Absolutely nothing about the development there is written in stone yet. If what we want is a REAL depot, something at least as welcoming as NYC's depot, then the possibility of turning the basement of this superblock into a giant, bus-only garage is attractive. Plus, if we build a depot there and also build the Chinatown-Metro Center tunnel that is under discussion, then the cost of building a fork on that tunnel to reach this depot would be relatively small.

2. 8th St between D & F, OR between G & I. Because of the Portrait Gallery, no one drives on 8th street right now, so it should be quite painless to shut it down to non-bus traffic. This option drops the traveler off right in the heart of downtown, and if the G & I option is used, again it could be linked to the Chinatown-Metro Center tunnel.

3. L'Enfant Plaza. The only way that this works is if some combination of money and zoning changes comes along, allowing a group of developers to transform this area by overlaying shopping and other street-friendly development. If that's on the table, then god bless: anyone who's walked around L'Enfant knows that virtually every building here wastes about 40% of their footprint on concrete "parks", so there's plenty of room. The brass at the various agencies might gripe or get all turfy about new construction, but their employees would probably be very happy to have stuff to do on their lunch breaks or after work.

4. Judiciary Sq. Alex B mentioned this. I know this area like the back of my hand, and the best 3 options are:

4A. 3rd St btw D&E

4B. National Building Museum parking lot (4th btw F&G)

4C. The Parking Lot Monster, AKA H St btw 1st & 3rd.

While not as bad as L'Enfant, all of the Judiciary options plop you down in an area that's dead at night and not a safe place to look like a tourist -- especially for the inevitable lost people who wander northeast into Sursum Corda. They would need to be coupled with some other development, so that travellers would have a busy street to walk down as they make their way from the bus depot to Judiciary Square metro or any of the other area stops. For 4A and 4C, that's easy in theory -- if nothing else, the airspace above 395 and the half-finished projects littering 3rd St could be built up. For 4B, there's really no free room -- it would be enough of a fight to get the Building Museum to give up their parking, let alone get GAO and/or the Courts to put some retail or community space in their buildings. But if done in tandem, the net result would be a much more welcoming neighborhood.

In short, if the city is feeling super-ambitious, then L'Enfant or Judiciary. But if all they want to do is dump the buses somewhere and not have to develop the neighborhood around it, then Old Convention Center and 8th St are the best choices.

by tom veil on Jun 23, 2008 4:01 pm  

To go with my comments here:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post.cgi?id=975

Build parking in a manner that doesn't have such of an impact on livability, and you can replace tons of streetside parking in small chunks in appropriate areas with "Five Minute Parking" - even with bus-sized spaces.

Aside from that:

L'enfant Transit Center could be an excellent idea, space-wise, development-wise, traffic-wise.

We just started charging charter busses $50 to enter DC. If that isn't struck down in appeals (an ABA suit failed a few weeks ago), how about we keep it in place (or perhaps double it), and waive it if they restrain themselves to using only a designated loading zone? It's a gentle incentive that would decrease charter bus dropoffs elsewhere, but allow them where they're really necessary (and the company's razor-thin margins can bear the additional expense).

I'm pretty sure there are other designated loading zones (the Mall, for example) already filled to capacity.

by Squalish on Jun 23, 2008 4:10 pm  

@AlexB - I can see the temptation with saying that we just enforce laws on the book more diligently. But it is hard to enforce restrictions that don't deal in absolutes. Too much grey area. I've attended enough PSA/MVSNA meetings to know that grey area reduces police effectiveness.

For instance, take the empty doubleparked buses idling for 30-40 minutes in front of the Woodies building. It's difficult for police to know how long a bus has been idling. Many residents will be too apathetic to call 911 over the bus idling because they either feel 911 is for more serious crimes or that the police response time for an issue of this type won't be prompt enough to catch the bus in the act.

Similarly, if a bus is blocking the garage door of a building that's a little harder to police than you might think. That requires that the police be canvasing every block of the neighborhood constantly. They may look down G Street and see that a bus is 3 blocks down. But they cannot tell if that bus is blocking a driveway from that distance. However if the policeman knows the bus isn't even allowed to be downtown at all it's clear to him, even from 3 blocks way, that there is action to be taken.

Basically, gray area = harder to police = buses ignore laws. Also, law enforcement has other trouble areas that most of us would prefer their focus remain on.

by MDC on Jun 23, 2008 4:45 pm  

MDC, there's no doubt that policing is harder.

As a matter of policy, however, there ought to be a legit cost/benefit analysis - even if not in a solely quantifiable sense.

Perhaps L'Enfant is a good option for the bus companies to use, but the process wasn't open and nobody was involved in this decision.

(as a complete aside - my pie in the sky dream project would accompany a massive new rail investment in the US - I'd love to see 395 at L'Enfant fully buried and the train tracks re-routed from VA and MD aves over the air rights of the freeway, with a second intercity and commuter rail station there. In that situation, you'd have direct access to Metro and to this proposed bus bay in the basement of L'Enfant Plaza. It would also allow for the restoration of Virginia Ave. /end dream sequence)

by Alex B. on Jun 23, 2008 5:04 pm  

I normally agree with you guys but these buses are a perfect example of a market springing up to solve a need. We should applaud it, not f it up with unnecessary and burdensome regulations.

by laur on Jun 23, 2008 5:25 pm  

Love the convention center bus depot idea, especially the ped tunnel. Also wouldn't mind seeing the old Greyhound bus depot on NY Avenue (now a sushi place I believe) returned to its former purpose.

by VC on Jun 23, 2008 5:40 pm  

i'd put it at union station along first street ne

by sean on Jun 23, 2008 6:25 pm  

Laur - what do you think of my idea? Build a bus depot at L'Enfant, charge buses to park elsewhere (Or rather, waive L'Enfant busses from fees already introduced by the District).

A large majority of the intercity buses aren't interested in any particular part of the city - they just need somewhere with space and a Metro hookup. The rest, which may target specific neighborhoods, can/should be accomodated.

by Squalish on Jun 23, 2008 8:35 pm  

If all things went as planned, L’Enfant Plaza would be undergoing a $300m renovation with street level shops and total redevelopment of the underground mall. However, the National Children’s museum decided to go over to the National Harbor and the plans were foiled. Also, around that time, the south end of L’Enfant Plaza was the alternative choice for Nationals Park. Now with nothing planed, maybe the bus station would be the incentive JBG needs to let loose of that $300m to spruce the place up.

http://www.akridge.com/docs/realtourweb.pdf

by RJ on Jun 24, 2008 8:17 am  

I got called "thoughtful" by David Alpert! My day has been made.

I took the Bolt Bus this weekend to NYC. When the bus was late arriving, there were things to do or places to eat if we wanted to grab a bite really quick. If we were leaving on a Saturday morning from L'Enfant, there would have been no (or very few) places to linger or patronize while waiting. And when on the return trip where the driver skips the scheduled rest area break and you're starving after four hours, getting dropped off on a Sunday night in L'Enfant would have been rubbing salt in the wound. (Not that this happened to me or anything.) Having places to eat after a long trip is essential for increasing vibrancy, because otherwise you're going to leave ASAP to get food.

by mel21clc on Jun 24, 2008 12:04 pm  

There are a couple of different arguments going on here so I hope I don't drop something and can still make sense.

On the bus "nuisance" argument -

To me, it's concerning that there's no real evidence provided to quantify the harm done by the current system. Certainly, some of the buses picking up in Chinatown, which is already difficult driving, are a hassle for traffic. It probably makes sense to move them (although they were there first...) The bus at 15th and K Streets, however? I've never seen any sign it was a problem. Without evidence to quantify all of the positive and negative effects of the current non-system system, it's impossible to decide whether this is a net gain or loss for the city. We certainly all have our anecdotal evidence, but as the organization proposing a change, it's incumbent on DDOT to explain why that change is necessary.

On the "best use" argument -

The question of where it's most convenient for the bus companies and their riders to be picked up and dropped off has already been answered - it's their current locations. If it really was in the best interest of the buses and riders to to move L'Enfant, they would. But they don't, for a number of reasons, of which I think would be:

1) Although L'Enfant has Blue/Orange & Green/Yellow Metro access, most locations downtown are also within walking distance of those, the Red line and a number of the city's busier bus lines. Simply put, transit in DC was designed to give greatest access to downtown from the entire metro area, so if you need one location to serve all of DC, it's downtown, not L'Enfant.

2) The customer base is also, for that reason, already downtown. Most of these buses are scheduled to allow riders a half day of work, or to leave right after work. Thus, picking up where your customers work [downtown] is not incidental to their business model, it IS the model.

3) As popular as the bus services may be, they're not the keystone to economic revitalization in L'Enfant. SW has a long and storied past of bad development that sadly is still apparent today. But a bus station in an otherwise failing neighborhood will not serve either. If the area was already turning the corner it might help create the critical mass needed for self-sustaining growth. But, as L'Enfant now stands, the area provides practically nothing for the bus ridership, and they'll contribute practically nothing to the neighborhood.

In short, I do think having a policy to regulate where these buses operate is a good idea. But it doesn't seem that centralizing them in L'Enfant is the right answer.

by Ryan on Jun 24, 2008 1:19 pm  

>> To me, it's concerning that there's no real evidence provided to quantify the harm done by the current system. Certainly, some of the buses picking up in Chinatown, which is already difficult driving, are a hassle for traffic. It probably makes sense to move them (although they were there first...) Without evidence to quantify all of the positive and negative effects of the current non-system system, it's impossible to decide whether this is a net gain or loss for the city. We certainly all have our anecdotal evidence, but as the organization proposing a change, it's incumbent on DDOT to explain why that change is necessary."

Ryan, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of the sentiment in this paragraph. The argument that "(the buses) were there first" doesn't work for me. That mantra is only legitimate for business that are running the same way they've always been and obeying laws.

Some buses have been in Chinatown for awhile. But Bolt Bus and Megabus have only been around a few months. I think DC2NY has been around just shy of a year. The volume of buses has dramatically increased of late. There is far more than just those 3 companies I've named. It's not the same operation. It's irrefutably causing more congestion. Therefore I do not believe it should take 'a proverbial act of congress' to revise the non-system into a system. A non-system breaks when the volume increases.

However I don't necessarily think the buses need to all go to L'Enfant. But they need to park legally on the curb rather than just double parking and idling in lanes of traffic. The city should work with them to allow them to buy downtown curb space. If the company isn't willing to pay an fair price to buy curb space then all that means is they have voted with their wallet to go to L'Enfant. That's the capitalist solution. If that means rides on Chinatown buses end up being $35 and L'Enfant buses stay $25 that's cool with me and I won't have sympathy for anyone who whines about convenience but won't actually pay for it.

by Paul on Jun 24, 2008 2:02 pm  

I somewhat agree with the market-based solution of having the bus companies buy curb space downtown. Just like parking spaces for cars, I don't think the city should be giving away pubic goods for private use. My one caveat is that social policy concerns - promoting mass transit over individual car trips - make me want to ensure the fees aren't overly onerous.

But what does "overly" onerous mean? Without a clear calculus of the cost/benefit here, we're unlikely to find the best solution. DDOT doesn't have to do much, if anything, to convince me that "something" must be done. My concern is that before that becomes a specific plan (moving to L'Enfant or any other proposal) they need to do the work of justifying those specific actions in addressing a well defined problem.

As to the "they were here first," comment, that was completely incidental to my argument.

by Ryan on Jun 24, 2008 2:39 pm  

Ideally, buses wouldn't go to Chinatown either (except at night) and they would go to Greenbelt instead. People would get off and get on Metro or MARC and then head into town. buses would stay on the highways and not on urban streets. I've taken these buses and it kills me to putter my way downtown for the last 5 miles when I could be racing along on a Metro train.

Of course between midnight and 6am, metro won't work.

by VC on Jun 24, 2008 3:10 pm