Comments on Metro "punts": Will release transit schedule data for Google and others

Comment by JUAN

Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:36:30 EDT

The transit feature does still not work on google maps for the iPhone. Very dissappointing. I have tried it Chicago and Miami and it works sweet and really makes you use public transportation.
Hope they fix it!

Comment by Michael Perkins

Mon, 21 Sep 2009 06:58:33 EDT

See the more recent series of posts on this topic. Metro doesn't want to sign an agreement with Google. They give three reasons:

1. They already have a trip planner
2. They would like to be paid (and they're willing to spend $500k to get a consultant to tell them how much)
3. Google can use the data already provided under Metro's terms.

See the series of posts starting here:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post.cgi?id=2966

Comment by Terry Oliver

Sun, 20 Sep 2009 22:54:41 EDT

except when i use google maps transit option, i still don't see the metro (sigh). after everybody celebrated in march, apparently all is still stalled in september 2009.

Comment by jkc

Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:26:56 EDT

great job, metro. way to enter the 21st century!

Comment by Sirinya

Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:35:11 EDT

Someday we will get this out to LA. LA's Metro is the only agency not participating in the LA metropolitan area. Ideas???

Comment by db

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:49:14 EDT

It is amazing how much easier it is to plan out a transit route with google maps than with other tools. A lot more people might ride buses if they could find the best route easily. I recently just started commuting via bus from Arlington into Tysons and have found that, unbelievably, it is faster than driving. I'd probably have started riding the bus years ago if there had been an easy way to find that out.

Comment by Aaron Antrim

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:28:51 EDT

One of the key issues here is what DC Metro's Terms of Service for the GTFS data will be.

Comment by Elizabeth

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:55:13 EDT

Whoo hoo!!! EXCELLENT work on this! I, too, have long been grumbling about getting Metro into Google and have followed the details of the debate here. Thanks for all the hard work that's been put in to make it happen. Even with delays/scheduling issues (which have to be expected and planned for in any travel situation -- walking, busing, driving, etc.) being able to find basic route info without downloading massive and clunky PDFs or using Metro's unreliable one-off system is a HUGE DEAL. I won't even get STARTED with how amazing this will be to use with my iPhone...

Comment by Jess

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:42:14 EDT

I want to emphasis the distinction made above between Route Planning (like Google Transit) and Route Monitoring like real-time tracking, such as the AVL (automated vehicle location) system discussed. To me, AVL has some great benefits as far as monitoring and improving performance, and some benefit for rider information. But given the technical and financial issues, I think you get much greater bang for your buck and increasing ridership if you simply help educate people that there are ways to get from Point A to Point B with transit. I realize that people get impatient and feel reassured that they know up to the minute "when" the bus or train will get there; that they are comforted and the time passes more quickly if they have a countdown. But it's a matter of a simpler effort to build one system vs. the other. It's a matter of frequency really. Providing Route & Schedule information is simpler because the information changes less frequently: weeks, months, seasons, even years. AVL systems update very frequently, a matter of seconds or minutes and have many more technical and communications issues to address; and many more technical and communications issues to break down. I'd rather have a good, regional system for route planning which will help people get ON transit, than a system that's going to tell me the bus or train is going to be 5 minutes late. Yes, I'm glad we'll have NextBus sooner or later, but I'm happier that it could provide planners with data to analyze issues like Bus Bunching more than I am that it "might" inform people that they know when the bus will arrive with split second accuracy. I think the idea of "just in time" scheduling is a little overkill when we're talking about transit when there are so many places we can't even get transit service. Let's take a real hard look where we're spending our money and labor.

Comment by Jess

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:18:30 EDT

@Michael Perkins A thousand apologies to you Michael, putting John's name in was a slip of the Cut & Paste while I was multi-tasking. If makes you feel any better, your testimony was one of the few parts of the entire hearing that I actually watched the video instead of doing other things while I just listened. Keep up the good work!! "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" and we need more "squeaks" like you to push for change.

Comment by John Mitchell

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:52:35 EDT

@Jess @Michael Perkins: Wasn't there. It's all Mike.

Comment by Michael Perkins

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:52:26 EDT

If you'd like to thank the folks at WMATA, there's a facebook discussion here: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=9865116970&topic=7762 or you can send an email to them at boardofdirectors@wmata.com I think they deserve our thanks since they're doing the actual work of converting the schedule information rather than just writing about how great it would be.

Comment by Joe Chapline

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:51:08 EDT

A WMATA representative says on WMATA's Facebook page that it will be Metrobus and rail. Also says it will be the same data that supports the trip planner. I'm assuming that it's going to be ONLY Metrobus and Metrorail, but the trip planner also includes data for all of the local bus systems. I'd like to know for sure if that will be included or not. I'll ask on the Facebook page. http://www.new.facebook.com/pages/Washington-Metropolitan-Area-Transit-Authority/9865116970?sid=0ac299bb4295e8bc03eb1418d8d502d4&ref=s

Comment by Michael Perkins

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:43:45 EDT

@Jess: As stated above in the article, WMATA updated their facebook page to state that both rail and bus schedule information will be available. Unless John Mitchell was the other panelist, I don't remember seeing him at the hearing.

Comment by Lou DC

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:21:41 EDT

I would love to know what did it - lots of emails? I like to think my article about Walkscore in which I complained about Metro's holding back on this maybe generated a few emails.

Comment by Jess

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:38:38 EDT

@John Mitchell Following getting the RSS alerting me to your story here, I started watching (then listening)online to yesterday's hearings you attended. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. But after a few hours of listening to this I finally got to the part that mentions Google in the Q&A. John Catoe spoke only about making the MetroBus routes and schedules available. Do you have any clarification or a means of getting a clarification as to whether he "meant" the entire Metro System including MetroRail? People and Metro need to really take to heart that TRANSIT ONLY WORKS IN A NETWORK, so all the components and transit providers need to supply information for routing software(s), be they Google, MapQuest, etc. to work well and give people transit alternative routes that can compete with automobile trips. This is the on-going problem with planners, providers, politicians, and advocacy groups who only think locally instead of regionally. In the "real world" people cross jurisdictions all the time, they commute/travel/move from place to place irregardless of what governmental entity they go from, through, or to. This is why people love their cars so much and why narrow thinking limits transit alternatives: freedom and mobility. Too often the transit systems exist to move people from Point A to Point B with reasonable performance, but the knowledge and integration of that information is woefully lacking and a result, people take the path of least resistance: they get in their cars and drive.

Comment by Jazzy

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:07:35 EDT

Thank you John Mitchell!

Comment by John Mitchell

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:28:21 EDT

@Jess I agree that real-time information is more important than incremental improvements in performance. The beauty of the late lamented NextBus beta was that ultimately, you didn't have to care if Metrobus could stick to its schedule, because a quick check would tell you when the bus would actually arrive at your stop. @Michael Perkins One of the easiest things Google Transit could do would be to cross-link their schedule data with the URL for the real-time arrivals website.

Comment by dcpatton

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:35:16 EDT

This is great news Michael, etc. Our emails paid off.

Comment by Arch

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:28:06 EDT

Good to see Metro listening to our comments. If you called individuals on the metro board (Jim Graham, Catherine Hudgins), their office staff members will tell you that they received hundreds of e-mails on the google transit issue.

Comment by Jess

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:51:36 EDT

Finally getting Metro data on Google Transit/Maps is a great step forward (well at least getting the data publicly available, I'm not sure if Google will pick up the ball and do the rest of the effort to post the information without an agreement with WMATA). As far as the complaints about system performance, let's not mix apples and oranges: yes, on-time performance IS important, but so is information. And this post was about making information available. People need information to plan trips and to realize there is an alternative to travel by automobile. Bus performance (and other modes) can be, and should be improved, but we have to recognize the limitations of operating buses in congested traffic. As we increase ridership, we can push for transit priorities so buses and other modes get infrastructure investments to give them advantages over cars in the physical space like bus lanes and busways, priority signaling, etc.

Comment by Jazzy

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:19:16 EDT

nice bell and whistle, but the system won't work any better because of this. for schedule information to be useful, it has to be accurate, and there is NO EVIDENCE metro bus/rail runs anything close to published schedules. by jr on Mar 11, 2009 11:20 am it's not delays that i'm talking about. the trains and buses just don't run on a schedule at all! one of the largest obstacles to getting people to use mass transit is the perception, a correct one here in dc, that the trains and buses run rather randomly, bearing no resemblance to published schedules, and that they'll have to wait for a long time until the next bus/train. putting bad information that a buss or train will be at point x at time y only reinforces the perception when someone plans their trip around that information only to have it not be accurate. by jr on Mar 11, 2009 11:56 am

I'll have to second JR here. I have no ideas about the train reliability, but the buses - whew, they are not reliable. I have no idea what google transit is, but for a schedule, I always go to the WMATA site, and it's been fine, but like JR said, a bus schedule is more or less useless. That's why next bus was so great, those four minutes I got to use it.

Comment by Michael Perkins

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:58:51 EDT

@John Mitchell: That's right, by design they're two separate systems. One is reading the published official schedule information, and the other is making predictions based on GPS location devices, predicted traffic speeds and the like. If you wanted to integrate the two, you'd have to draw a fuzzy line and give people real-time data if their trip was happening close enough to "now" (like if the vehicle had already started its trip), and written schedule data if the trip was further out than that. It's an algorithmic process (can a currently running vehicle get you there? if yes, show real time data, if no, show schedule data), so theoretically it can be done in software. Writing such a software package might be tricky, I have very little software design experience.

Comment by Scott

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:55:16 EDT

This is wonderful news! FYI, Alexandria's DASH is already on Google Transit. (As is the City of Fairfax's CUE, but you may know that since it wasn't in your list.)

Comment by John Mitchell

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:48:53 EDT

@Michael Perkins: Aren't there really two different systems at work here? On the one hand, Google Transit adds a transit option to Google Maps "directions" function. On the other hand, real-time arrivals information is often presented using the Google Map API -- NextBus does it and so does the BusTime service used by Chicago. But I'm not sure that the latter is available on the former. In other words, the random visitor in a city with Google Transit can access bus routing and official scheduling information when they go to Google Maps, but if they want real-time arrivals information, they need to go to the transit authority's website (as in Chicago). So the real-time information is not usually available on Google Transit itself?

Comment by Michael Perkins

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:36:27 EDT

@jr: Yeah, I acknowledge that I don't ride the densest, least reliable part of the system and therefore I enjoy somewhat better schedule reliability. I'll point out that I obtained and wrote about schedule reliability for buses here and reported on train reliability here.

Comment by Michael Perkins

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:17:33 EDT

@Rob Pegoraro: Thanks. I think that's our next step, to get that data published with an open API so other people can write interesting apps for real-time data. It will be great when Nextbus is working and that there's the PIDS feed on wmata.com, but with open data standards you can do stuff like this: http://www.transitalarm.com rings your phone when a bus is x minutes away. Works with chicago's unofficial feed.

Comment by jr

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:15:09 EDT

@michael perkins: then you are truly blessed by the gods of public transport, my friend. metro should avoid making promises it can't and doesn't keep. it's a bad policy.

Comment by Rob Pegoraro

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:04:57 EDT

@Michael Perkins: Well, Metro does publish real-time delay info, in the form of the "next train" displays in stations and on its regular and mobile-Web sites. (I won't even get into NextBus for now.) But I have no idea if GTFS can accommodate that type of dynamic data at all.

Comment by Michael Perkins

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:03:52 EDT

@jr: I have a schedule on the wall in my office that lets me know what train and bus I can catch based on leaving at certain times. I've found it to be more accurate than not. There are service delays, and problems with maintaing headways due to bus bunching, but it's a mischaracterization to assert that they don't have a schedule at all. They have one, it's just trickier to follow for buses because WMATA doesn't control the operating environment like they do for rail. For rail, I've found they're on time except when there is an incident like a broken door or a sick passenger. Different issue there.

Comment by jr

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:56:43 EDT

it's not delays that i'm talking about. the trains and buses just don't run on a schedule at all! one of the largest obstacles to getting people to use mass transit is the perception, a correct one here in dc, that the trains and buses run rather randomly, bearing no resemblance to published schedules, and that they'll have to wait for a long time until the next bus/train. putting bad information that a buss or train will be at point x at time y only reinforces the perception when someone plans their trip around that information only to have it not be accurate.

Comment by Michael Perkins

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:51:05 EDT

People use Google Transit for planning purposes. I don't see a feasible way for WMATA to plan the service delays they'll be having tomorrow, so it's either put the schedule data in this format or release nothing. I'll take the data.

Comment by jr

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:46:45 EDT

bad data is worse than no data at all in many cases. take the credit rating companies. they rated all these junk securities AAA, causing most people not to question whether or not that was true.

Comment by Arlen

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:43:01 EDT

Thanks to everybody who pushed to hard for this! Whether the data is accurate or not, this is a great step toward a more open and transparent system--and that's always good.

Comment by Erik

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:23:10 EDT

Fantastic! I've been writing to Metro for years about this, and its great to hear them say they are doing it!

Comment by Kevin Beekman

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:20:55 EDT

Not only is DASH on Google Maps, but they have a new website with a trip planner that utilizes Google Maps.

Comment by jr

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:20:02 EDT

nice bell and whistle, but the system won't work any better because of this. for schedule information to be useful, it has to be accurate, and there is NO EVIDENCE metro bus/rail runs anything close to published schedules.

Comment by Peter

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 11:13:34 EDT

great news!

Comment by Patty

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:22:59 EDT

DASH transit data is already on Google Maps.

Comment by Chris S

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:21:34 EDT

BRAVO

Comment by Steve Davis

Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:09:36 EDT

Fantastic news. Great job from David, Michael and everyone else at GGW who worked so hard to get this viewpoint across to Metro. It's refreshing, really.