Transit
Take Metro in a wheelchair, just once
Do Metro executives know what the Metro is like for a person who uses a wheelchair?
When Deena Larsen, a wheelchair-using Denver resident, took the Metro from Union Station to Smithsonian to see the cherry blossoms, the trip was so frustrating that she cried.
First, I tried for 20 minutes to find an accessible elevator at Union Station. I was directed to a long hall and four stairs. I got my wheelchair down the steps, only to find that the entrance there was not accessible. So I had to scoot back up the stairs on my butt (a friendly stranger helped bring the chair up). When I finally got to Metro Center, I could not find the elevator, because the signs were wrong.
At the Smithsonian Station, the only elevator I could find was blockedUnfortunately, this trip is typical of the problems faced by people who use wheelchairs and want to travel by Metro.— no explanation, no phone number, nothing. I pressed a call button, but no one came down. Finally, as I was crying in frustration, a nice couple located a guard, who explained that there had been a fire. He got my wheelchair and me up the escalator.
At Dupont Circle's south entrance, for instance, there are no directions from the escalators to the nearest elevator, 2 blocks away. At L'Enfant, getting from the Blue/Orange platform to the Green/Yellow platform or the street requires 3 elevator rides. At Fort Totten, the elevator is broken, so Metro runs shuttles from two stations, lengthening the trip time for riders who need the elevator.
It took a court order for Metro to routinely include elevators in the station design, and the elevators in the retrofitted stations are not necessarily conveniently located.
And when the elevators break, they often stay broken for a long time. The same is true for the escalators, of course, but at least a broken escalator can still be used as stairs by people who are able to climb stairs. A broken elevator, on the other hand, takes you nowhere.
Metro is fixing some of the problems. All of the stations opened in 2004 or later have (or will have) redundant elevators (2 elevators for each necessary ascent). Rosslyn station is currently getting a bank of mezzanine-to-street elevators. And plans are underway for redundant elevators (and new escalators) at Union Station.
But there is still plenty of room for improvement.
Ms. Larsen concludes her letter,
I would be very grateful if just one Metro executive went through the system in a wheelchair. Just once. That is all it would take.How about it, Metro executives? Any volunteers?
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by Dave G on Apr 14, 2011 1:15 pm
by Distantantennas on Apr 14, 2011 1:29 pm
Metro's failures on accessibility really are inexcusable--particularly for a system that was build after some disability laws had already passed, and with many stations build after the ADA. I'll concede that it's better than many in that it HAS elevators at all stations, but when they're out of order, the presence of an immobile elevator doesn't help anyone to use the station.
Sadly, some of this issue dates back to Jackson Graham, who was reluctant to accept elevators and even went so far as to try to "demonstrate" that a person could take an escalator (that's not a typo--an escalator, not an elevator) using a wheelchair. That sorry episode is not a model for how current Metro Board members should take up Ms. Larsen's challenge!
by Mister Goat on Apr 14, 2011 1:35 pm
by Mister Goat on Apr 14, 2011 1:36 pm
by Ed on Apr 14, 2011 1:38 pm
by Jasper on Apr 14, 2011 1:38 pm
by srfrjulie on Apr 14, 2011 1:39 pm
by canaan on Apr 14, 2011 1:41 pm
by Ethan on Apr 14, 2011 1:48 pm
I'm sure a huge portion of it is that in order to get the big open stations, they have to be really deep underground, which I'm sure raises the costs for building and maintaining elevators. Not that that's an excuse, however. Just a reason.
by Jimmy on Apr 14, 2011 1:51 pm
Also, Metro still has one of the best wheelchair-accessible systems. Most urban transit systems don't even attempt to accommodate users with disabilities, and the Federal government's request for Metro to do so would have been very unusual in the 1970s, decades before ADA was even on the table. I'd daresay Metro might have very well been the first fully wheelchair-accessible transit system. We've learned a few lessons along the way too, and can hopefully continue to make improvements.
Though the shuttle buses are less convenient, we do provide them (and from multiple stations no less). Also, elevator repairs seem to be made quickly, and in good faith. There are currently 7 out of service out of 237 total. Given that there are many redundancies throughout the system, that seems like a pretty good score.
Elevator-dependent Metro customers can also sign up to be notified by text message or email whenever an elevator at one of their stations goes out of service, and outage information is routinely flashed across the PID boards.
Look. Being a paraplegic sucks. There's no easy way around the issue. However, I think that Metro's done virtually everything that can reasonably be done (and then some) to accommodate these passengers. Wheelchair accessibility is an issue, and a serious one at that. However, I think that Metro is doing a pretty great job of accommodating it.
That said, some of the elevators can be notoriously difficult to find. I had to take my bike on the Bethesda Metro a few weeks ago, and it took me nearly half an hour to find the elevator 2 blocks away from the main (and only) entrance. Better signage would be in order.
Let's also not forget that a Metro employee carried her up the escalator, despite the fact that she never seems to have thought to ask one of them for help or information, opting instead to go directly to the Post's opinion page.
by andrew on Apr 14, 2011 1:52 pm
by dkf747 on Apr 14, 2011 2:08 pm
by Tina on Apr 14, 2011 2:10 pm
by JessMan on Apr 14, 2011 2:14 pm
by Tina on Apr 14, 2011 2:15 pm
I didn't say that people should expect to be carried. I did say that the author of the editorial seems to have glossed over this enormous and unnecessary random act of kindness.
I have friends and colleagues who are wheelchair-bound, and can certainly appreciate the many difficulties they face every day that you and I are unaccustomed to. However, Metro is rarely, if ever on their list of complaints.
My point was that the editorial was completely over the top, and possibly even inaccurate. For instance, I find it tremendously difficult to believe that the signs at Metro Center (one of the largest/busiest stations in the system) are flat-out wrong. It would have been nice if the Post did an investigation to accompany the editorial, and verify its claims.
by andrew on Apr 14, 2011 2:17 pm
by dkf747 on Apr 14, 2011 2:18 pm
I'd be curious to see how much we've already spent on ADA compliance since the system was built.
by charlie on Apr 14, 2011 2:24 pm
New York only has a handful of accessible stations (82 out of 468). Even newer systems in Toronto (started in the 50s) and Montreal (60s) are not accessible.
by Alex B. on Apr 14, 2011 2:25 pm
Make those in charge use the system to commute - take away their Metr-provided cars and parking spaces - and watch things improve quickly.
by ceefer66 on Apr 14, 2011 2:43 pm
Not of Metro's management.
by WRD on Apr 14, 2011 2:53 pm
by M on Apr 14, 2011 2:54 pm
by Brad on Apr 14, 2011 3:10 pm
Thats the point, Metro already is THE MOST accessible of them all.
As others above have already said, Metro was far ahead of the game, literally decades when it came to what then became ADA.
by freely on Apr 14, 2011 3:10 pm
by charlie on Apr 14, 2011 3:12 pm
I see this alot at the Ballston station, but have seen it elsewhere as well. I dont have a problem with this per se, I have seen people in wheelchairs or with strollers having to wait for a working elevator and then not being able to board because there were 7 other people in front of them who by all accounts looked completely able to take the stairs.
Maybe some elevators can only be used by people who need them, especially during rush hour. Maybe a policy similar to rush hour bicycle restrictions can be used for the elevator.
by Ryan S. on Apr 14, 2011 3:17 pm
by Bossi on Apr 14, 2011 3:23 pm
by Ryan on Apr 14, 2011 3:53 pm
by Ryan on Apr 14, 2011 4:05 pm
I hate to rely on D.C. exceptionalism as an argument, but this is the nation's capitol, the people's capitol. Just because other cities are less accessible doesn't mean D.C. should get away with it, too. D.C. should be accessible to any and all who want to see it. Our veterans should not have to go through transportation hell in order to see the monuments that were built commemorating their service.
by MJ on Apr 14, 2011 4:06 pm
Don't get me wrong, the system should be accessible. However, let's not forget why Jackson Graham opposed putting elevators into stations that had originally been designed without them - cost.
We have this wonderfully accessible system. Sure, it needs maintenance. More redundancy for elevators would be good. Better signage is an obvious thing.
But how has that helped bring down, say, MetroAccess costs? If we've put all these resources into Metro's physical assets to make it accessible, I would expect to see some degree of savings in terms of paratransit trips forgone because the regular transit system is accessible. That's the underlying issue, in my opinion.
by Alex B. on Apr 14, 2011 4:10 pm
Volume. Escalators move more people more quickly than stairs. They also discourage shoving (they don't eliminate it, but I've never seriously worried about being thrown down a flight of stairs like in New York's system).
by andrew on Apr 14, 2011 4:15 pm
Does anyone know what the labor situation is for elevators? Traditionally, building managers contract out elevator work. Otis Elevators, for example, is famous as a business school case study for making almost all of its profits from installation and maintenance. From an outsider like me, at least, elevator work seems like exactly the sort of thing that Metro should contract out rather than treating as a core competency.
by tom veil on Apr 14, 2011 4:17 pm
With that said, obviously feasibility is a serious issue when discussing improvements. My advice - Metro should make sure that all the elevators are repaired before repairing escalators. I get really annoyed walking up crowded, broken escalators that are littered with debris, but my annoyance pales in comparison to the experience of someone in a wheelchair.
by Thomas on Apr 14, 2011 4:22 pm
For everybody who thinks metro is fun for people with walking disabilities: put on a single ski shoe as a fake handicap and see how well you do around metro. You'll be surprised how hard it is.
I recently had a foot problem, and while I could still
walkwobble, I was surprised how much harder getting around becomes.by Jasper on Apr 14, 2011 4:33 pm
Yes, the elevators at L'Enfant (and all of the original Metro stations) are afterthoughts. The initial system was not designed with elevators in mind, they were only added well after construction had began when a court order forced Metro to add them.
by Alex B. on Apr 14, 2011 4:36 pm
by Jerome on Apr 14, 2011 4:41 pm
Oh wait they have mob (union) protection.
by Martin on Apr 14, 2011 5:02 pm
The last time was a women headed down in a wheelchair. I went to the attendant and she bluntly cut me off, saying with the ADA, metro coulnd't stop her. Really? Here again, what about an innocent person being hit by her chair or body if she lost control?
by Swissmiss on Apr 14, 2011 5:20 pm
Because those of Tenleytowners do not have the leg muscles to comfortably hike several stories a day. I would assume ditto for Rosslyn, Dupont Circle, Wheaton, and Woodley Park residents.
by thedofc on Apr 14, 2011 6:42 pm
As for the comment that escalators move more people---I'd like to see numbers on that: given that most people are stricken with escalator induced paralysis and just stand there on a slow moving escalator, AND the stairs could be wider, I'm thinking stairs not only move more people but promote even the slightest amount of exercise. Plus, they are, by nature, bi directional and can handle crowds better.
by lynx on Apr 14, 2011 6:54 pm
While ADA spells out things like slope angles, height of buttons, railings and other things used by those in wheelchair, the tools given to the blind are extremely limited.
I can pretty much sum it up with "platform edge bumps". Thats about it.
Other countries install full guideways on the ground that the blind can actually follow with their sticks, at no detriment to anyone else.
by JJJJJ on Apr 14, 2011 7:00 pm
Couldnt agree more; WMATA is piss poor for the blind.
------------
@ dkf747
So if WMATA is great than tell me why there are no signs from the bus bays to where elevators are located.Take many stations downtown, that have multiple entrances or are on the ground level of a building.
Bethesda if you are getting off a bus at the bus bays how do you find the elevator ? At Metro Center or Gallery Place the majority of buses dont stop infront of the elevator how will you find it ?
Signs should be placed at each entrance pointing to where the elevator is
Everyone does not have internet on their mobile phone.
by kk on Apr 14, 2011 8:56 pm
by Turnip on Apr 14, 2011 8:57 pm
That, however, is a maintenance issue, not a station design issue. The L'Enfant transfer is a design issue.
by Alex B. on Apr 14, 2011 9:13 pm
However, there are signs on the platforms of Metro stations showing which way to the elevator. When I exit the train they are usually right there next to the station name. Even that can be improved. Gallery Place station is a confusing one, for example. I've used the wrong one to transfer to the Red Line several times. It is annoying, especially for wheelchair users, to have to go back down and look for the other elevator.
I don't think I said that everyone has internet access on their phone. My comment was, "If you have..." As someone else mentioned, the electronic signs do list elevator outages and where shuttles are available. That's better than nothing. Would still prefer something better though.
by dkf747 on Apr 14, 2011 9:20 pm
As far as I can tell, just about every metro elevator has only two stops: up and down. Despite this, each elevator I have ridden seems to have a huge variety of buttons (mostly for use in emergencies, it seems) and each panel has a different configuration. As a result, I usually have to stop and carefully examine the panel in order to find the one button that gets me to the only other stop. Furthermore, the buttons for up and down usually have only marginally useful or even incorrect markings. An abbreviation for mezzanine? Of course, that means the level above the train but below the street. Except that some street to mezzanine elevators have buttons for street and train. I can only imagine how difficult such panels would be to use for a blind person. Big, arrow-shaped buttons would be a vast improvement. I hope that as Metro renovates and adds elevators, that it will spend some effort to make the controls more user-friendly.
by John on Apr 14, 2011 9:22 pm
Case in Point: http://www.accessthedmv.com/video/meet-the-riders-paul-spann-1
You can see the disappointment in this guys eyes and hear it in his voice and it's a shame the most of the able bodied community doesn't even take the time to help a person with a disability.
Props to the writer!
Mr. Access
www.AccessTheDMV.com
by Mr. Access on Apr 15, 2011 3:58 am
"Volume. Escalators move more people more quickly than stairs."
I'm not so sure about this in cases where escalators are short. (Long escalators are a different story.) I've noted at Metro Center if a working escalator and a stopped escalator are side by side, they seem to move approximately the same number of people.
That's because the standees on the right side of the working escalator move much more slowly than people walking up the other one. I haven't done an actual count, but I have observed this, and the difference does not seem to be significant.
Also, more width can be accommodated in the same amount of space, and stairs are always two-way. Think Metro Center again. The big, wide staircases that are behind the escalators can move a lot more people than a bank of three escalators: one up, one down and one stationary. In fact, I bet that if they swapped the location of the stairs and the escalators, it would reduce crowding.
by Steve O on Apr 15, 2011 7:17 am
re:AccessTheDMV
AWFUL name. Is it too late to change it?
by TGEoA on Apr 15, 2011 7:36 am
This is new one on me. The only legal suit I recall being filed regarding the presents of elevators for wheelchair access on metrorail was related to the opening of the Gallery Place station on 03 27 1976.
The elevators were to be built in the E, F route, Green Yellow lines part of the station that was built well after the B route Red line part of the station was structurally completed.
It true that the original plan did not call for having elevator access to system. It is also true that the four stations that opened on 03 27 1976 were adapted after construction began to accommodate them. All stations built after that had elevators in their original designs. Farragut West and Mcpherson Square are two nearly identical station where the architectural contractors contracted to design those station chose different locations for the mezzanine to platform elevators.
One must remember WMATA was ahead of the curve when it came to accommodation the handicap. Flashing light on platform edge, contrasting surface texture at platform edge, railings on top of parapet walls to differentiate between mezzanines and platforms. One must also remember that the regulation requiring handicap access on public transit was limited until ADA was passed 1990.
by Sand Box John on Apr 15, 2011 9:44 am
Access the Department of Motor Vehicles?
Wow, that's niche.
Note to AccessDMV: We live in the DC area, not in the Department of Motor Vehicles. Get a different name.
by Jasper on Apr 15, 2011 9:46 am
And part of the problem with the elevators is that you can't rely on them working, can't rely on Metro employees in the station knowing if they're working (part of the frustration in the original story was that she was directed to elevators that weren't working), and they're hard to find.
by Susan on Apr 15, 2011 10:04 am
@ Andrew--I don't know what kind of super escalator you're talking about, but I can't imagine that escalators move people any faster than stairs. (Obviously in places like Rosslyn or Dupont, that's different). And certainly not when they are broken. Which is all the time.
The solution to this problem is so simple. That's why Metro will never do it.
by MJ on Apr 15, 2011 10:25 am
by Ward 1 Guy on Apr 15, 2011 10:36 am
There is an elevator to the street in the bus station, directly next to the escalator down to the Metro mezzanine.
There's a rather large sign explaining that you must take the elevator up to the street, and then another one back down to get to the Metro Station. Unfortunately, once you're at the street level, there's not much signage to indicate the location of the other elevator that goes all the way down into the metro station.
So, yeah. It's possible, and there's enough signage there for you to (eventually) figure it out. I won't contest that this is a crappy design that inconveniences wheelchair-bound users, but it does work, and complies with the letter of the law.
by andrew on Apr 15, 2011 12:00 pm
@Justin It's a acronym for D.C., Maryland, and Virginia....amazing that you pointed that out on Greater "Greater" Washington, though....we'll keep it between us.
by Mr. Access on Apr 15, 2011 12:03 pm
by kk on Apr 15, 2011 1:26 pm
by Doug on Apr 16, 2011 12:28 pm
by grumpy on Apr 16, 2011 1:30 pm
http://www.accessthedmv.com/profiles/blogs/mvtransportationmetroaccess-1
by Mr. Access on Apr 16, 2011 9:56 pm
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/step-free-tube-guide-map.pdf
by David Reilly on Apr 16, 2011 10:37 pm
That said, the regular bus service and drivers do try to be as kind and accommodating as they can, even as many riders silently fume.
As others have noted, most urban railway systems that were built before Metro are not at all accommodating and don't even try. We should always make every effort too look out for those who have it a little harder than many; anything less is inhuman.
by copperreddc on Apr 17, 2011 12:35 am
Thanks for the blog and comments. First, I went down those stairs because I was told this is the only entrance. I figured ok, I will get there and be allowed in. But I was not. I use a wheelchair and I can walk a bit--so I can do things most can not.
Second, the metro folks were GREAT when I found one face to face. When I called for help on the phone, they said it was not an emergency. The metro folks did not carry me up the escalator, but made it possible for me to stand while on the escalator and made sure my 30 pound wheelchair made it up as well.
This is the letter I got back from Metro. While I am glad they responded, I don't think they have a grip on reality:
Hi,
All I want are signs saying where the handicapped exits and entrances are and if something is out of order, a sign with a phone number...
Deena Larsen
http://www.deenalarsen.net
--- On Fri, 4/22/11, Deena Larsen
Letter to the Washngton Post
To: "RichardSarles"
Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 1:42 PM
Dear Mr. Sarles
I do appreciate your attention to accessibility issues. I am ccing Tom Rowe at the Washington Post, as he was interested in any follow ups.
I would like to point out a few things in response to your letter below and suggest some easy fixes to help disabled tourists.
1) While each station may have at least one accessible entrance, there are many station entrances that do require steps. Once you navigate these steps, you will find that the turnstiles do not accommodate wheelchairs (or strollers or ...). Then you have to undo all of that and try another entrance--which may have steps lurking half way down the corridor. ALL of these non-accessible entrances should have signs saying "This is NOT the accessible entrance. The accessible entrance is (on the west side, one block up... etc.) Please also inform police staff, maintenance staff, and others about these entrances--a nice brochure/map would be lovely. I was directed down two non-accessible entrances by police men and by metro staff at the Union Station.
2) While you may well have staff stationed for breakdowns, there was no signage whatsoever on the Smithsonian exit elevator (from the blue line/metro station side). There was only a yellow gate. I spent 5 minutes just figuring out that it was broken and not some fancy way of doing the pass through the turnstile. This station in particular has its elevator far far away from staff--in a dark corner on the far side of the track. Please instruct ALL metro staff that if there is an outage (even to clean up for a moment) to put up a sign:
"This is out of order. The nearest elevator is at __ station. Please call 202-962-1212 and 202-962-1825 for assistance." You could print up a stack of these things and keep them in the stationmaster's office.
This sign was NOT available at the Smithsonian elevator. To be fair, that was the only place that I searched in desperation for a number. And it may be on the elevator itself--but I could not get through the turnstile to get to the elevator. So, please, recheck to make sure that these signs are at:
Each turnstile/entrance to each elevator
Each elevator
Each restroom.
3) I may have been extremely unlucky, but there were no technicians available at the Smithsonian entrance between 4:35 and 5:20 pm on Monday April 4th. I also don't think the technicians were available earlier, because when the policeman and metro staff finally rescued me and got me and my wheelchair up the escalator, they spoke about having to do the same thing about 2 hours earlier. So, please check this availability. Again, I understand breakdowns. But not having a SIGN about the breakdown and an explanation of where to go is absolutely inexcusable!
4) "We have posted the locations of our elevators with the accessibility symbol on our Station Name signs about every 20 feet on platform walls and pylons. " I was looking. I did not see one of these. IHowever, I am in a wheelchair and therefore I am 3 feet tall. Could you make them larger? or eye level with a wheelchair? Or provide a printable brochure? Or have brochures available to give out to tourists? (If this is a cost issue, I am sure we can do some fundraising!) I will be in DC again May 13th and I will be happy to retrace my steps with someone.
5) I did go to your website --and my impression was that if I were a DC resident, call this number, prove I am handicapped, go through more bureaucracy, and I might be able to get an accessible ride. In no way did I see that I as a tourist could also get help or directions or even a map. On your website, on the front page, please put a new section: Accessibility for tourists. In this section, put links to maps, phone numbers, etc. As taxis in DC charge $20 per ride for people in wheelchairs, the metro makes sense for a lot of handicapped tourists--who need this information.
Thank you
Deena Larsen
--- On Fri, 4/22/11, Sarles, Richard wrote:
Date: Friday, April 22, 2011, 7:55 AM
Dear Ms. Larsen,
I read your Washington Post Letter to the Editor and Greater Greater Washington post, and want to let you know that we are working to try to improve to better meet the needs of all our customers.
As part of our capital program to rebuild system safety and reliability, we are investing more than $100 million to rehabilitate or replace 22 elevators and 103 escalators on the Red, Blue and Orange Lines. After decades of inadequate maintenance and underfunding, Metro has a commitment from the jurisdictions in the region and the federal government to support our efforts to restore the systems state of good repair. While these improvements take time, and cause some inconvenience for customers, the benefits will be better reliability of elevators, escalators, and train service.
Meanwhile, during the Cherry Blossom festival in particular, Metro had technicians available to immediately assist with escalator and elevator issues at the Smithsonian, LEnfant Plaza, Waterfront, Arlington Cemetery, Capitol South and Metro Center Metrorail stations. I have shared your concerns with Rail Operations management to learn exactly what transpired at Union Station and to determine how we can improve going forward -- including making elevator wayfinding signage more visible.
Metro is considered one of the most accessible systems in the country, and every Metro station has an elevator -- there are no stations that require the use of steps prior to accessing an elevator. We have posted the locations of our elevators with the accessibility symbol on our Station Name signs about every 20 feet on platform walls and pylons. Also, for your future use, we have posted to the outside of every elevator a sign that provides the 24 hour elevator outage number, 202-962-1212 and 202-962-1825, which is the number to call for a shuttle if the elevator is out of service.
While our elevator reliability has been fairly good generally over 95% of elevators are available each month -- I also want to make sure you are aware of the tools we have when planning any future trips with us, including information regarding elevator outages. If you call 202-962-1100, we have people who are available to assist visitors with disabilities in advance of your trip. Also, you will soon see improvements on our website with better real-time information about elevators that are out of service for maintenance or repair.
I realize this information doesnt change the experience you had. But know that we are working to improve, and that our executives do travel through the system periodically with members of our Accessibility Advisory Committee so that we can see the system through the eyes of others.
Sincerely,
Richard R. Sarles
General Manager
and Chief Executive Officer
by Deena Larsen on Apr 23, 2011 1:24 pm
I would also suggest that Metro bring back its readily available shuttle services. Previously metro had shuttles available to take people who needed to utilize the elevators to the next station at the station that had a broken elevator. Now you must call the number and then wait hours to be picked up and transported to another location. I realize that Metro will disagree, but I am the one who spent over 6 hours last month on three separate occasions while freezing my butt of just in order to be able to get home. On one occasion it was a matter of being taken from one side of the Shady Grove station to the other side where my car was parked because there was no way to access that side of the station without the elevator. This could have easily been remedied by one of the buses taking me to the other side, but none of them had permission to do so. There are many fixes that can be made without a large investment but it will take creative thought and efforts by the DC Metro. It will also take a change in the Metros perception that it is doing good enough. I congratulate them on being one of the top Metro systems in the country, but I thought America was always about making things better, more useful and above all fairer for EVERYONE.
And while I appreciate everyones opinion on how the station manager helped for Deena I have to say that stating that she and others like her and I should just be happy with what we have is insulting. I issue you the challenges that Deena was brave enough to issue to the Metro executives. Use a wheelchair for a week on the Metro and then I will seriously consider your opinion. Be late for important meetings, miss Doctors appointments and presentations and then sit outside in the cold worrying that you may have a stroke due to being a paraplegic in the cold and what you know it can do to your already compromised health ( see autonomic dysreflexia please) and then we can have a serious discussion.
by Jason Olsen on Apr 25, 2011 10:02 am
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