The DC Streetcars should/could similarly be run on greenways ... for more than aesthetic reasons. Putting them in the middle of a street AND in the middle of traffic puts their greatest virtues (the possibility of speed and reliability) at the mercy of the other traffic in the street. Put the streetcars in medians (e.g., the grassy median of Rhode Island Avenue) or in streets closed off to non-delivery motor vehicles (e.g., M Street in Georgetown) and a streetcar can operate at its fullest potential ... AND look nice. Every streetcar I saw operating in France operated that way. (Maybe some actually operate in the street as DDOT is proposing for DC, but I didn't see any.)

by Lance on May 23, 2011 3:15 pm • link • report

Won't the Purple Line still call for tall fences? I agree that greenways are a good way to keep the transitway attractive, but if we're still throwing up a huge fence, it will still be kinda ugly. Still worth it, but ugly nonetheless.

by TM on May 23, 2011 3:22 pm • link • report

Oh, I see from the photo that they're not proposing a tall fence, at least not at this section. I swear I saw an earlier plan for a tall fence. I hope I am wrong.

by TM on May 23, 2011 3:24 pm • link • report

Fort Collins for the WINNNNN!

by Jeff Dailey on May 23, 2011 3:27 pm • link • report

Having seen and ridden some of the grassy transit systems in Europe, I'd just add that the phot doesn't quite capture how much nicer they are than slabs of concrete. They seemed to define their space well enough that people weren't surprised by them, and mulling around like farm animals on the tracks, nor did they seem to encoutner as much interference from cars. At the same time, the grassy track was nice from a distance (to see) and nice up close (because it wasn't radiating heat).

by Paula Product on May 23, 2011 3:30 pm • link • report

Did Lance just advocate closing M Street to cars?

by BeyondDC on May 23, 2011 3:40 pm • link • report

I think u your to need more than just greenways, something has to be done in the name of safety

by Jerome on May 23, 2011 3:52 pm • link • report

@Beyond DC ... Yes, and if you'd been following you'd know I've all along said we're doing the streetcar system backwards here in DC. They should be going in areas that are already congested and being used to relieve congestion on their own ROW - Right Of Way instead of being put in places like H Street NE where there's no congestion to deal with. And yes, of course that involves closing some streets to cars. (I.e., like in Europe where delivery trucks and the like can still access the streets but most motor vehicles cannot.)

by Lance on May 23, 2011 3:55 pm • link • report

I think he did...

by Geoffrey Hatchard on May 23, 2011 3:56 pm • link • report

If you look at the historic aerials of DC, you can see that Pennsylvania Ave used to have street cars down the center of it.

http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=4E-06&lat=38.8793094640307&lon=-76.982876&year=1951

by ErikD on May 23, 2011 3:58 pm • link • report

How do these other systems solve the "This is not a place for kids to play in the grass" problem?

...and closing M Street to cars should be head-smackingly obvious at this point, although I'm not exactly sure where you'd send the traffic from the bridge. I sure do with that the H St streetcar was built in its own median, at the expense of the parking lane. I have a sad suspicion that we'll be doing this in a few years if the rest of the system is successful.

by andrew on May 23, 2011 4:02 pm • link • report

Add The Hague to the list:

by Jasper on May 23, 2011 4:04 pm • link • report

OK. Interesting. I've been following and I don't remember you ever advocating to create new rights-of-way by closing car lanes. I only remember you criticizing the program for "being backwards". If you (and if the Cmt 100) are open to closing car lanes, that's real news that the city, the mayor, and DDOT need to know. I agree! We should close car lanes to make these work.

One thing, though: H Street may not be congested now, but one of the reasons for putting a streetcar there is to allow the neighborhood to develop without becoming congested. It's like eating healthy to avoid getting sick, as opposed to getting sick and then going to the doctor.

by BeyondDC on May 23, 2011 4:10 pm • link • report

Of course there are physical accessibility considerations (i.e., for stops/platforms), but as the Eugene, OR example illustrates...you can have a grass transitway with accessible stops/platforms. Some of the other examples (particularly international ones) might not be as physically accessible to people who use mobility devices.

by Penny Everline on May 23, 2011 4:11 pm • link • report

What's the impact of grass tracks/transitway on construction and maintenance? They seems like something that - nice as they are - would get tossed overboard in the name of cost savings.

by Distantantennas on May 23, 2011 4:20 pm • link • report

Lance's blanket statement notwithstanding, plenty of French streetcars/light rail run on non-grass surfaces. As Dan points out, many run on streets closed to cars, especially in central Strasbourg. Others run in mixed traffic. And of course, apart from a small section of central Bordeaux and a tiny stretch in central Nice, they all run with the dreaded overhead wire.

Here are photos of French streetcars/light rail running on non-grass surfaces and with an overhead wire:

Bordeaux: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?83367

Grenoble: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?50356

Le Mans: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?85036

Lille: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?40277

Lyon: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?22290

Marseille: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?94347

Montpellier: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?49441

Mulhouse: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?108429

Nantes: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75115

Orleans: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?23306

Paris: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?91603

Rouen: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?48875

Saint Etienne: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?49453

Strasbourg: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?43308

Valenciennes: http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?84464

by rg on May 23, 2011 4:49 pm • link • report

I'm sure that the way they mow the grass medians is with regular lawn mowers but wouldn't it be cool if they had a special lawn-mowing-train? Kind of like the "money train" that Philadelphia (and probably other transit systems) runs late in the night to collect money from the stations?

by LawnMower on May 23, 2011 4:51 pm • link • report

I am a Fort Collins resident and find the Mountain Ave trolley interesting for a few reasons. First, the trolley has its own separate transit signal crossing Shields. The signal was installed within the last 2 years for who knows why. It makes us feel like a big city for once!

The other is the grass median. Yes, people do have a habit of playing and lounging in the median. Nobody gets hurt because the trolley only goes maybe 15mph max. I have a hard time picturing a light rail system using grass tracks because of the trespassing issue. Also, how fast can trains travel on grass tracks; anyone know?

PS. there is another separate transit signal elsewhere in Fort Collins. Does anyone know where?

by Zmapper on May 23, 2011 4:57 pm • link • report

@rg
Your photos or both Orleans and Paris show grassy medians in the background. Besides, dan's original point was not that all streetcars run in grassy medians, but that there is an "incorrect misconception that all transitways must consist of massive concrete barriers." Your images proved his point, despite not being greenways.

@LawnMower:
That may now be my worst nightmare: a train with chopping blades coming at me.

by thedofc on May 23, 2011 5:05 pm • link • report

WMATA has money trains. I see them on the orange line all the time.

by BeyondDC on May 23, 2011 5:10 pm • link • report

You can tell when the moneytrain hits Tenleytown: the arrival board says it's a Blue line train "Special" and is only four cars long. Tenleytown has no elevator from the mezzanine to the platform, so the Metro Transit Police officers always grown as they have to carry this large metal box on wheels down the escalators.

by thedofc on May 23, 2011 5:31 pm • link • report

Pretty sure it's just one money train. Cars 8000-8003 -- VERY dirty, a permanent "NO PASSENGER" sign, and blacked-out windows, usually coupled to two 3000-series cars, because the system is no longer engineered to support 2 or 4-car trains.

by andrew on May 23, 2011 5:44 pm • link • report

@thedofc: I agree 100% with the original post and was not trying to prove Dan wrong. I was responding to Lance's comment that all the French streetcars/light rail he saw ran on grassy medians, with the insinuation that DC is way behind what France is doing for not doing the same. I wanted to point out that while yes, some French streetcars/light rail run on grassy medians, many others do not. Indeed I frame my entire post in terms of backing up Dan......I think the key words are in my post are: As Dan points out.

BTW, if the Committee of 100 favors closing streets to automobile traffic, that is indeed big news!!!

by rg on May 23, 2011 5:56 pm • link • report

Grassy transitways are a nice idea but what about upkeep?

Not trying to be a spoil sport here, but the transit areas could become quite an eyesore pretty fast if they're allowed to get overrun by weeds and litter. Which would defeat the enitre purpose of the transit since the idea is to get people to use it.

There definitely would have to be funding set aside for specifically for upkeep and beautification, untouchable for any other purpose (good luck with Metro). Or perhaps neighborhood groups/associations could adopt the section that passes through their blocks.

Just a thought.

by ceefer66 on May 23, 2011 6:27 pm • link • report

Great post. I wrote one a while back on the same subject, highlighting a few in addition to the ones you show. There's no reason we shouldn't be planning these.

by Kaid @ NRDC on May 23, 2011 6:43 pm • link • report

@ ceefer66: Not trying to be a spoil sport here

Then don't. Just don't. There is no reason to believe that DC can not do what many other cities have been doing for decades. There is just none.

by Jasper on May 23, 2011 8:06 pm • link • report

Is this an argument for the DC area?

I sure hope not because this would require irrigation to be installed, not to continuous maintenance.

by TGEoA on May 23, 2011 8:28 pm • link • report

@rg Lance's blanket statement notwithstanding, plenty of French streetcars/light rail run on non-grass surfaces.

I said "Put the streetcars in medians (e.g., the grassy median of Rhode Island Avenue) or

by Lance on May 23, 2011 9:20 pm • link • report

@BeyondDC ...

That's MY take on it. I don't think the Committee of 100 has considered any scenarios other than the one already under consideration by DDOT ... i.e., putting streetcars directly into the streets (in mixed traffic) and starting with areas where you want to see economic development happen.

As I've explained previously, I personally see the value in streetcars are being used to solve the problem of congestion ... as is the case where they are being successfully implemented in European cities. Sure you can also use them to stimulate development, but in my personal opinion it's a pretty risky and EXPENSIVE proposition to use them for that. Yeah, if the gamble pays off and H Street suddenly grows faster and bigger than it would have without the streetcar, then it might be worth it. But it better grow much faster and a lot more than it would otherwise to justify paying for the over-capcity now. I mean, yeah you can always start with the biggest and best support systems (in this case a transportation system) but in most cases it makes much more sense to grow your support systems as you need them ... If for no other reason than that it's very inefficient to own and operate a system that 'by far' exceeds your current needs. Think of it as a computer system. Should the mom and pop on the corner buy a mainframe super expensive system because someday they'll grow into a large chain store and need it? Or does it make more sense for them to buy some cheap off the shelf software for now, and if they get bigger to upgrade as needed?

I think most business people would go with the latter scenario. But I understand that most people pushing for the streetcar aren't business people and don't understand these basics. They're either potential users not really concerned with the costs (as long as they don't get reflected in the fares ... which they've already been told could actually be 'free' in the downtown area) or they're DDOT folks who just want a chance to build it ... And if the developers have told them 'build it and you'll see this neighborhood turnaround', it's enough for them. They don't need to see if there's really a cost benefit to putting it in there.

by Lance on May 23, 2011 9:33 pm • link • report

@rg ... part of my posting (from 9:20) to you got cut off ...

"Put the streetcars in medians (e.g., the grassy median of Rhode Island Avenue) or in streets closed off to non-delivery motor vehicles ..."

by Lance on May 24, 2011 8:39 am • link • report

@Lance; bravo, for a brave post.

Pushbacks: I suspect H st will be OK. There's a lot of questions about how it will all connect, but it is part of town that it is good for developers to run wild.

I sometimes feel the same way about bike lanes. Being done because they are cheap and on the margins. But how do we get to the point where we say 10% of car trips can be done by bike? I do think bikeshare has an aspect of this.

However, while I think it is a good idea to eliminate parking along M St in Georgetown, banning all car traffic probably isn't a great idea. Maybe running a street car up Wisconsin is better. Much of the bus traffic on M is really Wisconsin traffic. While the best mode in Georgetown is walking, you do need to find a way to get through there into Rosslyn and McArthur. The various proposals to extend K st back to canal aren't very helpful either.

by charlie on May 24, 2011 9:17 am • link • report

OK Lance. Next question: If there is "congestion" on the H Street bus line, is that adequate reason to invest in more transit capacity, or do we have to wait until automobile travel becomes congested too?

by BeyondDC on May 24, 2011 9:36 am • link • report

@ Lance: as is the case where they are being successfully implemented in European cities

Correction: as is the case where they are being have been successfully implemented for many decades in European cities

by Jasper on May 24, 2011 9:42 am • link • report

The H Street/Benning Road streetcar is not only about spurring growth. It is alreasy a high ridership transit corridor that is desperately in need of new transit investment. The X2 bus that serves that corridor is one of the most high ridership and overcrowded bus routes in the city. (There are other kinds of congestion besides motor vehcile congestion!) A DDOT study found that the neighborhoods served by the X2 bus have low rates of automobile ownership and suffer from some of the longest travel times to employment centers in the District. (Despite what the Committee of 100 says, DDOT has conducted extensive and in depth studies re: DC transit investment.) Of course, few Committee of 100 members live in the parts of town that are underserved by transit. And few of them take take the bus, So they are not aware of just how awful the X2 and other similar bus routes can be. I guess kind of like why I could care less about parking.....

by rg on May 24, 2011 9:45 am • link • report

@Jasper,

Please explain how you managed to conclude that my post claimed a belief on my part that "DC not do what many other cities have been doing for decades". I'm curious, since I said nothing of the sort.

I'll wait.

by ceefer66 on May 24, 2011 12:18 pm • link • report

@ ceefer66: Pet peeve of mine. There is a cognitive dissonance in the phrase: "Not to be ..., but ...". If you don't want to be a spoiler, then don't. If you do want to be a spoiler, then fine and go ahead, but don't deny you're spoiling.

In your case, your ... was that things might get dirty and people don't like dirty things. That is a truism that implies you don't believe DC could keep the tracks clean. I pointed out, there is no reason to believe that DC can not do what other cities have done for decades.

by Jasper on May 24, 2011 2:11 pm • link • report

@Jasper

Agreed.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for innovative and creative transit options. although I mostly drive to commute (out of necessity), I fully support transit as long as it it's not looked at as a substitue for a decent highway network (that's a topic for another discussion).

I've seen some of the foreign transit systems mentioned in this discussion and I've often returned from overseas trips wishing our cities (and the nearby suburbs) were as easy to get around in. Heck, you don't even have to go as far as Europe or Asia - the transit systems in Canadian cities such as Toronto and Montreal are far superior to those in the average US city.

Didn't mean to come off as overly pessimistic. It would b great if the DC streetcar system became a benchmark.

by ceefer66 on May 24, 2011 4:10 pm • link • report

"Not trying to be a spoil sport here, but the transit areas could become quite an eyesore pretty fast if they're allowed to get overrun by weeds and litter. Which would defeat the enitre purpose of the transit since the idea is to get people to use it."

Dude, ceefer66, try looking at DC's asphalt streets some time. They've got trash and weeds, too.

by tom veil on May 24, 2011 4:13 pm • link • report

@"Dude, ceefer66, try looking at DC's asphalt streets some time. They've got trash and weeds, too."

And your point is...?

MY point is they have to make - and keep - the streetcar nice if they want it to be a success. Quite simple.

And please stop trying to make it a transit vs. cars issue because it isn't.

by ceefer66 on May 25, 2011 12:37 pm • link • report

I started a group on Flickr to collect photos of trains, trams, streetcars, and buses rolling over grass.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/1641257@N23/

by Steven Vance on May 25, 2011 3:43 pm • link • report

Re Lance's post on May 23, 2011 9:33 pm, I doubt that DDOT is trying to replace underused bus lines by even more underused streetcar lines (except perhaps Anacostia - but that was intended as a demo). More likely bus lines with very high demand are considered for conversion.

USA data shows that in large transit systems with both bus and light rail or streetcar the bus systems are almost always far more expensive to operate than light rail or streetcar. And streetcar capacity can always be upgraded if necessary, add more cars, lengthen cars, run them in multiple unit. The three cars that DDOT has are midget size; for large ones try: "Budapest Siemens Combino" in your search engine, and note the hourly capacity of the line
.
The tracks themselves are an investment in street capacity, moving from a car lane with a capacity of about 1000 people per hour in the peak, up to 10 000 people per hour in the peak. And far cheaper than widening the road to accommodate more cars. BTW, most people, business or not, have a pretty good idea of when an investment is justified or not.

by Dudley Horscroft on May 27, 2011 1:39 am • link • report