It occurs to me that the classic "bargain" of the civil service is lower pay but iron-clad job security compared to the private sector. Teachers' advocates are somewhat hypocritical when they complain that teachers aren't paid comparably to other professions (like doctors or lawyers) who don't get tenure like civil servants. (Also, keep in mind the amount of time doctors, and especially lawyers put in at the office, usually it is much greater than forty hours a week, some teachers put in less.)

by Steve on Aug 19, 2008 2:23 pm • link • report

I wouldn't be very quick to try to generalize the situation with the DC Teachers' Union to anything else at all. This is a unique situation, even among large city systems.

As someone who worked as a teacher (in MD, not DC) I can't imagine trying to do that job when you have to worry about the politics of your work environment causing you to lose your job at the drop of a hat. And no, it's not the same as other jobs. Yes, all jobs have politics. However, few have the stress of teaching, trying to maintain discipline and simultaneously teach a class of 30+ adolescents who hate school and want to be somewhere else. No office job compares.

I like to think that Ms. Rhee has the best of intentions when she proposes her overhaul of the pay system. However, her system would leave the classroom teacher vulnerable to a wide variety of abuse from administration. You have to understand why these unions fought to get the current system that rewards longevity: whatever existed before wasn't working.

If you want to lose even more teachers than you already do (I'm one of them) implement this proposal. If you have no job security, why bother putting up with such a stressful job that pays poorly? There are plenty of other jobs that also have no job security that will pay double or triple. One reason why teachers have made a career of it at all was that they got comfortable in life. They embraced their profession and were able to master this difficult skill over many years once they got their initial tenure. If there's no more comfort, why bother?

The skills of a teacher are not like the skills of basketball player. You can't just watch them play once and then decide they will light the world on fire. Many of the best career teachers out there will tell you that it took them years and years to grow enough to be able to teach and enlighten like they do. You want to decrease the chance that they'll ever get there? Remove their job security.

The focus of this blog: urbanism and urban revival is going to contribute much more to the long term viability of DCPS. Stable schools require a vibrant, stable community. The schools are a piece of the social fabric. They are not a separate problem that can be solved with the magic bullet of teacher salary structure reform.

Of all reasons why DCPS is broken, I think that the teachers' pay structure is about the last on the list.

by Cavan on Aug 19, 2008 2:24 pm • link • report

I'm pretty sure I'd support Rhee's proposal.

by Vik on Aug 19, 2008 2:40 pm • link • report

From what I hear from my teacher friends, there's a major race component to this. The teachers think that this is an elaborate plot to replace them with white teachers are to further gentrify DC. Obviously, this makes no sense whatsoever, but this is the DC Public school system we are talking about...

I really hope Rhee's proposal is adopted. Teachers like Cavan somehow think they shouldn't be accountable or subject to the same whims every other profession is. I can be fired for no particular reason- "cost cutting" or such. Why do teachers think they're ENTITLED to something more than the other 95% of Americans who work hard at their jobs?

by SG on Aug 19, 2008 2:52 pm • link • report

You should talk to some teachers. You should talk to some parents too. It really bothers me that current liberals sound like Alex P keaton when it comes to unions

by Alex on Aug 19, 2008 2:53 pm • link • report

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!!

Oh, wait..... it's the most broken school system in the history of mankind....

by SG on Aug 19, 2008 2:56 pm • link • report

We need to move beyond fighting the battles of the 1980s. Alex P. Keaton was right about some things (competition is good) and wrong about some things (unchecked, monopolistic businesses can create abuses as bad as or worse than government overregulation). What bugs me about some unions is that they are really trying to turn back the clock to the 1970s instead of finding the right model to represent their members' interests in the 2010s. SEIU is trying (and, consequently, being criticized for hiring too many young whippersnappers with crazy new ideas).

by David Alpert on Aug 19, 2008 2:58 pm • link • report

Alex, Cavan, THANK YOU.!

by Jazzy on Aug 19, 2008 3:01 pm • link • report

However, few have the stress of teaching, trying to maintain discipline and simultaneously teach a class of 30+ adolescents who hate school and want to be somewhere else. No office job compares.

You've obviously never had clients...

Yes, every job has its benefits and its drawbacks. But DCPS do not exist for the benefit of the teachers. Their right to a "fair deal" ends where the students interest in a future begins. The only consideration we should have is whether this plan will result in better schools for the kids. I say we call the bluff of all these Union chicken littles and say to them "Fine, you think we won't attract good talent with the new system. We don't care what you think. We're just going to find out for ourselves."

by Reid on Aug 19, 2008 3:49 pm • link • report

small amendment to my previous comment: by "I'm one of them", I meant to say that I am one of those young teachers that the profession lost. I left teaching after two years to get my master's and now have an office job that pays about twice as much as I made before and has nowhere near the stress (no adolescents, and you're responsible for your own work, not for the work/whims of children).

by Cavan on Aug 19, 2008 3:51 pm • link • report

Reid,

While your sentiments are well intentioned (won't somebody please think of the children!) you can't run a system without experienced teachers. You might be able to attract new teachers, but you can't retain them without a stable staff of experienced teachers. I'm telling you, this is a different workplace with a different set of rules than what is considered to be normal work.

Roughly 50% of new teachers leave teaching within 5 years. Most of them leave because of a mixture of money and feeling like they don't have any support for such a fantastically stressful job. Do you think that getting rid of the senior staff will help this problem?

And yes, I've had clients. You're dealing with adults. Yes, the situation is stressful. Every job has some stress. That's part of why they have to pay you to do it. But you don't have 30+ adolescent clients who don't want to be there, yet you're still responsible for their learning.

by Cavan on Aug 19, 2008 3:57 pm • link • report

At the risk of seeming overly caffeinated, I'll just add this final note:

School systems across the nation are having an incredibly hard time finding teachers with the appropriate credentials. There aren't enough of them coming out of college. And of those who get a BA in Education, not all of them ever set foot in the classroom. So it's not like there's an excess of teachers out there to staff DCPS with. Compound that with the fact that the school system is known to be broken, and the equation changes. Notice how Ms. Rhee is trying to play hardball at the negociating table with the union, rather than trying to recruit new teachers and encouraging them to not join the union. It sheds a little more light onto why she's much more media friendly than the union. She is trying to use public opinion (and the fact that in this point in our history, most would rather castigate and pile on civil servants rather than feeling empathy) to do things that she can't do.

This is a power grab by Ms. Rhee. She does seem to intend to use the power for good. However, there is no guarantee that her successors would be so judicious with that power. She is under a lot of political pressure, as her successor will be. There is no reason why that pressure should be taken out on the teachers.

I'm not saying that the DC teachers' union is wonderful. I'm sure they have their share of baggage, like most DC government related things seem to. However, as someone who has been in this profession before, I do know that the situation is never as simple as it appears to the outside.

by Cavan on Aug 19, 2008 4:15 pm • link • report

Caven your point there is not enough teachers witht he appropriate credentials is one that I think should be furhter explored. Maybe we should revaluate what the appropriate credentials are? Is a MA in education really necessary? Should we find someway to accomodate mid career professionals who want to teach.

My understanding of a lot of the certification process is that you do not have to prove you have mastery of the material or even the ability to teach, but rather you prove you are willing to spend a year completing the required items.

by Nathaniel on Aug 19, 2008 4:32 pm • link • report

Nathaniel,

You are getting at something constructive about the credentialing system. That was my experience. I have a B.S. in Physics. However, that is not enough credentials to teach math or physics. The education classes are far more important to the credentialing process, than the subject matter.

If I had my way, I would require subject credentials and replace a lot of the read stuff and write paper classes with more mentor guided student teaching. In the classroom, there is no substitute for experience. All the education classes in the world don't prepare you to teach. The best way to learn to teach is to have experience.

The mid-career teacher thing is a bit of an overhyped myth. It happens but their retention rates are lower than recent college grads. They are much less idealistic and can easily go back to whatever they were doing before when they actually get their feet wet in a real classroom. It's not as easy and as relaxing as you remember it in school. That's for sure. My dad (a career teacher in Delaware) has told me plenty of (admittedly anecdotal) stories about doctors and lawyers coming in and then resigning after a month because they found they didn't want to deal it.

This problem is much more complicated than first meets the eye. It's like what we discuss on this blog. They tried to solve urban decay with "urban renewal". Simple magic bullet solution. Failed miserably, wrecked many lives, nieghborhoods, cities, and arguably our national culture and soon our national economy. The same will happen if you try magic bullets in education. If you declare something blighted, then tear it down, you just might get something worse than before. This kind of problem needs to be addressed incrementally like urban revival. It has taken decades for DCPS to get this way. It will probably take decades to get it back on its feet. Just like our national infrastructure and oil sucking way of life. It took decades to destroy our cities and replace them with soulless sprawl. This decade, our cities started to show some life for the first time in decades. However, it will take decades for them to be fully stable, diverse, vibrant, economically diverse communities again.

by Cavan on Aug 19, 2008 4:50 pm • link • report

my 2 cents: You get what you pay for. You can pay for it with higher salaries or with better job security, but you gotta pay more for it. And paying the deadwood takes away funds you could otherwise use to pay more to those who make a difference. How do you get rid of the deadwood? Well, for starters you probably have to do away with that job security based on longevity rather than results. Yeah, give those teachers with results that job stability they want. But don't give it to the others. But, of course, isn't this what Rhee is trying to do?

by Lance on Aug 19, 2008 5:28 pm • link • report

While I agree with you that DCPS needs improvement, sadly, I don't agree that Chancellor Rhee necessarily knows what to do. We spend enough money on schooling in the city that if higher salaries were the solution we could pull the money together.

There are many problems with the schools. The biggest, my joke is, is that's where Home Rule started first. So the school system became a morass for contract manipulation and yes, bad hiring.

But management and accountability and sound practices and processes are the real need. The system has been destroyed for the most part over the past 30 years. It has to be rebuilt. (Cf _Black Social Capital_ by Orr.)

But many of the budget (at the school level) and personnel decisions by Chancellor Rhee engender very little confidence for me. Many high quality principals and other personnel have not been retained, without due process, without much in the way of explanation. Given that more apparent track record, people of ability have to worry that they will lose their jobs regardless of their worth or excellence. Given that, I'd rather work for maybe a little less in a neighboring school district such as Montgomery County.

Note that I agree that schools needed to be closed. But that was mishandled too.

Sadly, I think I'm more likely to be right than you. I never like to be proved wrong, but I am willing to be proven so on this issue.

by Richard Layman on Aug 19, 2008 5:39 pm • link • report

So I'll relay this story from the 1990's....

A good friend was denied employment at DCPS because he did have college calculus.

An African-American male DC native who wanted to "give back" was a math major at Yale and took Calc. in high school.

He ended up teaching at a local parochial school for two years, went on to HBS and is a senior exec at a national retail chain.

Oh well.

by William on Aug 19, 2008 7:41 pm • link • report

Lance,

Teaching is an interesting profession in that it is tough to judge who is a good teacher. Another question is, "what is a good teacher?" Is a good teacher someone who inspires students to learn more? Is a good teacher someone who students like and respect? If so, how do you measure any of these concepts? How about test scores? Is it a teacher's job to get test scores up? What if the teacher is excellent but the students don't apply themselves to the test? Should that teacher be fired? Is that a bad teacher?

Also, keep in mind, what some might see as a good teacher, others might see as bad. Think back to your schooling. Did everyone have the same favorite teacher?

How do you measure performance as it pertains to salary increases? Isn't a "merit based" salary structure in a profession where performance is highly subjective just ripe for abuse and conflicts of interest? How about destroying morale in the teacher's office at work? Why bother trying if you don't think your boss will ever recognize you? Worse yet, why stay in the profession?

I see two outcomes if Ms. Rhee's proposal goes through. The first is a gradual erosion of the District's ability to keep its schools staffed with teachers. The second is a reversion (functionally) to the current experience based system in order to retain all the current experienced teachers.

by Cavan on Aug 19, 2008 7:52 pm • link • report

Cavan, you don't see the outcome being the privatization of the school system? Seems transparent to me that this is what it's all about.

by Jazzy on Aug 19, 2008 8:07 pm • link • report

Cavan, the answer to your question is fairly simple one in my mind. A teacher isn't "good" because they are popular or because they are a good role model, we have friends and parents for that. A teacher isn't good if their students can't pass standardized (or even non-standardized tests), since getting them to learn that knowledge, by whatever means/skills they can, is a teacher's job.

In private industry you don't retain someone "because they tried" or "because they inspired their fellow workers to lead good lives" or "because they are popular." You retain someone because they produce results. Period. In private industry that might be dollars. For a teacher that is test scores, how many students make it to college, etc.

I was shocked to learn the other day that we have 2 non-teacher employees in our school system for every teacher we have out there. Our school system somewhere along the way stopped being a school system and started being an entitlement system. The charter system has only come about because when you have a system as disfunctional to the core as our school system is, you probably can't reform it. You really have to start over. I for one wish the District would quit wasting 1 out of every 3 tax dollars I give it on a system that can't teach. And the fact that people within this school system are actually fighting to keep this system "as is" is pretty disgusting. I guess the reason I find it especially unsettleing is that I went to schools where my teachers received NO salary ... ZILCH ... All they got were living accomodations, some spending money, and the satisfaction of knowing that they were giving a great education. Some 95% of the students went off to college with a high proportion going to very difficult schools to get into. Yeah, these were religious people ... Catholic sisters and brothers ... And no, I wouldn't expect lay teachers in a public school system to go without pay as these teachers did. But yet, I can't help but marvel at how 180 degree opposite are the apparent motivations behind our DC teachers who don't produce and my teacher who did.

by Lance on Aug 19, 2008 8:45 pm • link • report

Lance,

Hardly. You can't compare "private industry" to teaching. In private industry, you exist to turn a profit. You are not required by law to lead a horse to water and try to get it to drink. You're not responsible for the whims and misgivings of adolescents.

You do have a good point about the 2 to 1 ratio of non teaching personnel. DCPS is quite notorious for having people on the payroll in offices out in who knows where that no one can seem to contact or visit.

DCPS will also have issues is they are primarily educating a transient population that has no focus on education. This is what I mean by tying it in with urbanism. The schools are a reflection of the community they serve. If your community is beaten up, your schools will be too. Good teachers or not. Getting DCPS back on its feet will take decades, not a magic bullet. This salary structure thing is no magic bullet. It is merely a union busting power grab.

I went to Catholic school too, in an affluent suburb in the favored quarter of the region I grew up in. I also taught at a school that had a majority of its population from the wrong side of the tracks. Totally different universe. Can't compare. Not possible. If the kids in my high school got kicked out, they had to go to the public school.

Finally, charter schools were chartered by Congress in the '90s. It was the Republican Congress's opportunity to inflict its ideology on DC. A little social experiment. These schools suck public money, yet the public has no leash on them. They have shown no difference in performance (test scores) on average than DCPS.

by Cavan on Aug 20, 2008 9:29 am • link • report