I'll copy what I wrote at "Just Up the Pike" here. I'd like to push this a step forward and ask what do you & other commenters think would be the best viable use for the Border's location? Instead of waiting to see who offers to pay rent & agreeing or complaining, this is the time to start advocating for a replacement & perhaps attract a good renter.

Compared to every other public and semi-public place in that area, it's a huge piece of indoor space. It has a bigger footprint than the Civic building and is as big as Whole Foods! http://www.petersoncos.com/retail/images/factsheet/pcos_factsheet_dss_051811_web.pdf

Because of the exits on both Ellsworth & Fenton, it could easily be divided into one decently sized business & another slightly less huge space. It would be a shame if this was subdivided into a bunch of much smaller stores.

Given that the Peterson company isn't going to rent this cheap & I don't see the county subsidizing something at this location, what type of business would be able to pay the rent & be the type of multi-generational third place you're talking about.

I'm skeptical that another bookstore/cafe could survive at that location and be open late unless its a chain like Barnes & Noble. Being in walking distance to two movie theaters, Roundhouse, the Civic Center, the future Fillmore, & new library/community center it would be a risk to open another pure performance space. That said, something that allows for informal performances with another draw does have potential.

Something following the Politics & Prose model with something to buy & a real speaker-space would have the potential to bring in people & revenue.

A well designed gaming place (like Dave & Buster's, but better designed) with stuff to appeal to multiple ages has potential & could easily draw people in before & after movies.

Neither of these are great ideas, but what's better?

by Dan H on Jul 26, 2011 10:42 am • link • report

Dan H: Why would subdividing it into a bunch of smaller stores be bad? Generally, more stores is a good thing because it creates more diversity, more different reasons to go there, and engages the street more by having more entrances onto the street at different spots. Also, if there are many stores, then if 1 store closes (as Borders did) it won't mean the whole huge space is suddenly vacant for a long time.

by David Alpert on Jul 26, 2011 10:44 am • link • report

I'll echo David on that. I think having two stores (one on Fenton, one on Ellsworth) could be a good thing. I'd love a Busboys and Poets in one of them.

It's too bad record stores have gone by the wayside, because something like the old Phantasmagoria in Wheaton would be pretty cool, albeit another performance venue.

I suppose a bowling alley wouldn't quite fit, but perhaps something a little like the H Street Country Club, night life with some fun and games peppered in. That is a pretty prominent location with tons of foot traffic, I don't think there will be any difficulty filling it.

by Dave Murphy on Jul 26, 2011 10:58 am • link • report

David, Looking at the type of small stores that end up at that location, you'd end up with a few more chain or semi-chain restaurants that would probably close early. They all close earlier because it would take a lot of traffic to keep them profitable later and there's peer pressure in that, unless a bunch of small shops all decide to stay open late, none of them will.

I also don't think the "more entrances" = "more engaging" is true for this situation. The building is on what is essentially a pedestrian street with glass windows & an easily found entrance. It's a big spot, but, thanks to the L-shape of the store that surrounds the movie theater lobby, the frontage is barely larger then the DSW shoes next to it.

I'd, obviously, prefer small stores to a large empty space. There's nothing bad about that, but I think it's a lost opportunity. Like I said, one small store on Fenton wouldn't detract from the remaining large space on Ellsworth.

A business that uses the larger space well has the potential to bring something distinct to the area and act as an anchor to the nearby stores... perhaps evening encouraging more businesses to stay open later. A space that large is rare in this area & is worth thinking about how to use it well.

I like the idea of Busboys & Poets. Mayorga in Silver Spring used to have a good crowd of people working during the day & they has more social events at night. They moved to Takoma Park because their location wasn't as populated as the Borders location. A place for people to work/meet with coffee during the day, with a small shopping area, & the potential for performance space at night would fit the area very well. It also gets at was David is saying about multiple reasons to come to the area. Those multiple reasons can be in several stores or one business with flexibly divided space.

by Dan H on Jul 26, 2011 11:05 am • link • report

I'm not worried about filling the Borders space - I'm pretty confident Peterson Co. will bring it something worthwhile, but I am worried that all of DTSS will continue to be held back by archaic MoCo alcohol laws. Not that I want Colesville (with the new Fillmore) to turn into anything near an 18th St., but it certainly would be nice to have some more "real" bars instead of the required restaurant bars (some of which are great, but some of which are generic and crappy).

by jag on Jul 26, 2011 11:19 am • link • report

the suggestion of a busboys & poets is a good one. Or B&N. B&N could well be looking at the space. But I do think that more run of the mill stores would not help. It relates to the point I make that commercial districts should plan their retail and attraction mix by time of day to maximize utilization and reach.

- http://www.cambridgemainstreet.com/index.php?page=Market-Analysis-2009, the discussion is on pages 15-18 and for me is pretty succinct.

Dan, wrt the general discussion on curfews, I must not have read your piece, but the Baltimore Sun had an excellent editorial on the subject using the Baltimore experience as an example.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-07-25/news/bs-ed-curfew-20110725_1_teen-curfew-curfew-center-violent-juvenile-crime

by Richard Layman on Jul 26, 2011 11:22 am • link • report

Busboys & Poets, Politics & Prose...something of that nature. I would suggest a Barnes & Noble, but I don't really know Silver Spring that well...is there another one within spitting distance?

The tragedy, I find, is that often bookstores of this type are not replaced by other bookstores when they close. (I know, I know, Amazon is replacing bookstores at an alarming clip...I don't believe that there isn't a place for a real, viable independent bookstore such as Politics & Prose in this day and age.)

Or a good, large used bookstore, for that matter...someplace like the Strand in New York used to be (they tell me it's gone downhill - it's been ages since I was last there.) Combine it with a performance space and that would be a decent draw, I should think.

I'm just wondering what they're going to put in instead of the Pentagon City Borders. As an aside, I'm sorry to see them go; I remember the time when they had one of the best classical music selections of any chain bookstore I'd seen.

by Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Jul 26, 2011 11:24 am • link • report

Or something on the Trist model might also be a good option.

by Jacques on Jul 26, 2011 11:30 am • link • report

@Ser Amantio di Nicolao

When Borders is gone, there will be a Barnes & Noble in Bethesda (5 miles away), one in North Bethesda (10 miles), and one in Ellicott City (20+ miles). If there's still a market for big bookstores, Silver Spring wouldn't be a bad place for one.

I'd love to see a Busboys in Silver Spring. It confuses me that Andy Shallal would open in Shirlington (which is less diverse) and Hyattsville (which is less busy) before here. Mayorga was awesome while it was open in Silver Spring but struggled because it was way too far from the center of activity. I have no doubts that a similar space would work nicely in downtown Silver Spring.

by dan reed! on Jul 26, 2011 11:31 am • link • report

@dan reed!

Hrmm...from what you describe, then, I'd think a place like Busboys would be better, for variety's sake if nothing else. Not that I don't like B&N, but in a situation such as you describe I wouldn't mind going five miles for one, even were there a location possible closer to me.

I must admit, though, that I am somewhat jealous - I live off Route 1 in southeast Fairfax. The nearest bookstore is in Alexandria City; the nearest large bookstore is the B&N at Potomac Yards. What I wouldn't give for something closer at hand...

by Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Jul 26, 2011 11:46 am • link • report

It confuses me that Andy Shallal would open in Shirlington (which is less diverse)

What does "diversity" got to do with it?

by Lavern N. Shirlington on Jul 26, 2011 12:59 pm • link • report

@Dan,

I think the afformentioned insane County liquor laws make a place like Bussboys less profitable, hence you get one in Hyattsville and Shrilington before Silver Spring.

by Annon on Jul 26, 2011 12:59 pm • link • report

Ser Amantio,
There is a Books A Million at Kings Hwy & Rt 1.
Mt. Vernon Antiques Center is a good place to find eclectic used books for gifts, etc.

by spookiness on Jul 26, 2011 1:14 pm • link • report

@Annon,
Forgive me for not knowing all the liquor laws, but they don't seem that insance for a place that service food, like Bussboys. I think the liquor sales tax is 9% in Silver Spring compared to 10% in D.C. I think they need to stop serving a bit earlier (1AM? 2AM?), but, for a business that's trying to attract people throughout the day, that isn't a deal breaker. For just beer, the annual license is around $200 & is around $2500 for liquor too. Anything I'm missing that makes it so much worse than D.C to make it financially unwise?

by Dan H on Jul 26, 2011 1:43 pm • link • report

Why does GGW rehash all their points?

Why does more nightlife mean beating the curfew theme of more nightlife for teenagers?

Mayorga was awesome, and that locatino was fine until the construction started. A D&Busters would bring all the folks chilling in the basement playing pool up outta the basement, but is crap and brings crap (crap food, overpriced games, makes $$ on booze).. but that might work.

Something will go in there, after all, they have to make their 1$ a year rent.

by greent on Jul 26, 2011 2:26 pm • link • report

All the hype about "Silver Sprung" is done and over. Downtown Silver Spring still has promise but is also revealing itself during this period to possibly be an overrated "destination" area with fewer dining, shopping, and nightlife options, more crime, fewer jobs, and more vacancy than competing inner suburban areas like Bethesda/Chevy Chase, R-B Corridor, even Shirlington and Old Town. I consistently see less foot traffic through that area with each passing year and more groups of rowdy youth taking their place. Yes, it has some nice amenities such as the AFI theater, Discovery HQ, the coming Filmore theater, new library, renovated and expanded Montgomery College campus but ultimately that's window dressing for the fact that the office and residential stock in the area is outdated and not drawing in healthy new growth and investment. Outside of Discovery Channel and NOAA who are the major employers? Which big players are taking a risk in this economy to build an economic base here? Are the surrounding public and private schools good enough and safe enough to attract and retain growing families in large numbers?

by Mike O on Jul 26, 2011 2:27 pm • link • report

Mike O, the rate of downtown Silver Spring's expansion is huge, to the point where it worries me (as a condo owner). I worry that the shear number of units coming online in the next 1-5 years can't possibly be absorbed, but that's not a concern that developers seem to share, probably because the DC area defies gravity. See http://dcmud.blogspot.com/search/label/Silver%20Spring for some of the dozen+ residential and commercial projects under construction and slated for construction (along with the various public projects, e.g. transit center, library, purple line, etc.). Oh, and vacancy rates are extremely low, as far as I know. I can't say I follow them closely, but it's been far below average whenever I hear the numbers mentioned.

by jag on Jul 26, 2011 2:47 pm • link • report

@Mike O
Besides movie theatres, playhouses, public gathering places, lots of chain & local stores, a college campus, a couple of very large employers and several smaller ones, one of the most densely populated areas in all of Montgomery county, there's nothing, NOTHING! to do in Silver Spring. The housing market in the area is as occupied as most others in the region & doing much better than the farther suburbs. In addition to the major employers right there, it's an easy commute to both downtown DC & Bethesda. Before the Borders chain decided to completely shut down, the Silver Spring store was on their list to remain open because, I assume, it was profitable.

And yes, the Montgomery County schools are good enough to attract families in large numbers.

Yes, things can be better, but it's doing quite well even in a bad economy. The idea that this area is in decline is simply not based in reality.

by Dan H on Jul 26, 2011 2:55 pm • link • report

I'd love to see a Busboys in Silver Spring. It confuses me that Andy Shallal would open in Shirlington (which is less diverse) and Hyattsville (which is less busy) before here.

The downtown of Hyattsville is less dense, yes. But the market is far, far less saturated and expensive in inner PG. As a resident of Mount Rainier (nearby) - trust me, it thrills all of us. And it's a great step to rebuilding the urban fabric of these inner streetcar suburbs (like MtR and Hyattsville). There's also so few sit down restaurants and other institutions like BB&P in inner PG that the potential audience is much, much bigger.

by Jarrett on Jul 26, 2011 3:00 pm • link • report

The Fillmore will be a shot in the arm, but Colesville is at different stage than what I think of as the semi-mall area with chain retail and restaurants. BB&P would be a great addition because it would draw something other than chain store shoppers. B&N would be far enough away from existing stores to be viable. the problem with subdividing is that they would target more of the same stores that can be found anywhere.

Malls and downtown redevelopment projects are especially sensitive to the perception of crime. A few incidents and a big rumor mill and these kinds of places can die quickly. SS is a place that has elements for a vita area, but they don't really come together. In the past, Metro was poorly integrated. Montgomery College and most of the hotels are too far away and much of the quirky local business base was swept away. Without integration among the different venues in the area and some unique destinations, SS seems destined to continue being "not quite there".

by Rich on Jul 26, 2011 3:43 pm • link • report

Borders? Nightlife? Even if Borders continued to exist. It's 10pm/11pm closing times would still be prior to the proposed curfew.

by King Terappin on Jul 26, 2011 4:00 pm • link • report

Busboys & Poets tends to arrive early to the party when rents are still low. I'd venture to guess City Vista and Hyattsville both gave Shallal favorable rents as they wanted BB&P for it's positive real estate externalities. That dynamic anchor tenant creates buzz and residential demand.

For the firm that constructs these projects maximizing residential demand is more important than squeezing every last dime from the anchor retail tenant. Afterall the firms that develop these projects aren't in it for the long haul. They'll often sell the asset off to free up capital for other new development projects a few years after construction. Lowe Enterprises sold the retail component of City Vista to Edens & Avant, the condos to individual buyers, and the Apartment building to Gables Residential. Because Eden's & Avant and Gables are operators rather than developer's they'll be more likely to try to maximize the rents in the long run. When the existing leases for Busboys and other tenants are up they'll raise the rent.

Anyway, the situation with Ellsworth in DTSS is more mature in it's cycle and I doubt Peterson would give BB&P a sweet heart rent arrangement. And Shallal turned down the Artisphere in Rosslyn. He is selective.

by Paul S on Jul 26, 2011 5:09 pm • link • report

Dan, thanks for the link re third places and it is interesting to see an example of the dilemma which Borders leaves behind. See also:

http://www.grist.org/urbanism/2011-07-25-the-importance-of-sustainable-third-places-in-the-city

by Chuck Wolfe on Jul 26, 2011 5:57 pm • link • report

The difference between Hyattsville and Silver Spring is the owners. Peterson Companies are far less likely to be interested in an "independent" company (although they have some independent chainlets as restaurants) because as a company they prefer to deal with chains as their leases can be factored (they can get financing against them) which isn't the case for independents. And they aren't really going for an "independent" vibe.

In Hyattsville for sure B&P got inducements (incentives) to open. In Silver Spring, that would have to come from the property owner-manager.

by Richard Layman on Jul 26, 2011 7:45 pm • link • report

I think some of you are missing the point. Yes, it's great that there's public investment. My question is what's driving the long-term economic development and growth of the area? Look at the office space in downtown Silver Spring versus other comparable office areas in the region. It's lagging. You also don't have the same level of problems like MS-13 bothering people in Rosslyn or Clarendon or Tysons Corner. You don't have Fairfax or Arlington County instituting youth curfews. Why is that? Filling a large space like the Borders is great but that's small ball compared to the larger issues of safety and overall quality of life. Silver Spring is certainly better than it was even 10 to 15 years ago but it still has a ways to go and that has to start with drawing in more major companies which will in turn bring in more major retailers and residents.

by Mike O on Jul 26, 2011 7:46 pm • link • report

Stop kids from coming in from PG County and NE/SE DC, and all your problems will be solved. Open 4-6 bars up like Public Bar and Madhatters that are locted in dupont and "Poof" you have a fun night life district that attracts young professionals with out attracting crime associated with the thug youth that plague the area now. Pretty easy formula, took me 5 seconds to figure out. Arlington out it and now its one of the hottest markets in the country, why can't Silver Spring do the same?

by mike on Jul 26, 2011 9:36 pm • link • report

sorry i meant to say "Arlington figured it out"

by mike on Jul 26, 2011 9:38 pm • link • report

@ mike

Why do you need 4-6 bars one is enough while the rest could be family friendly places; everybody doesnt want to be around drunks.

by kk on Jul 26, 2011 11:27 pm • link • report

silver spring is kid friendly enough, it's always packed with families and kids. I said u need atleast 5-6 bars to balance the area out

by mike on Jul 27, 2011 6:52 am • link • report

Stop kids from coming in from PG County and NE/SE DC, and all your problems will be solved.

Ah, yes. Because walkability and a nice downtown area should be limited to upper middle class young professionals. Great. Really ignorant.

by AA on Jul 27, 2011 8:33 am • link • report

Why do you need 4-6 bars one is enough while the rest could be family friendly places;

Because sometimes you want to hang out with your friends a get a beer. Downtowns should be grown-up areas with lots of different things, not malls or theme parks.

by Tyro on Jul 27, 2011 9:26 am • link • report

@ Tyro

All grown ups don't drink so there could be a variety of things not just bar after bar; perhaps one bar one thing for everybody and something else. There is no reason or need make downtown only 21 and over and segregate everyone younger.

by kk on Jul 27, 2011 10:13 am • link • report

walkability and a nice downtown area should be limited to upper middle class young professionals

Given the choice of upper middle class young professionals and lowlife ghetto teenagers, any downtown area will be much better off catering to the former as opposed to the latter.

by Marian Berry on Jul 27, 2011 10:25 am • link • report

I know there are many Silver Spring & MoCo residents who'd love to put a big ol' gate around the county and prevent people from DC & Prince George's from coming here, but what many don't admit is that downtown Silver Spring is a mile from the DC line and a few miles from the PG line and has been drawing [law-abiding] customers from both areas for decades. Take them out of the equation and downtown Silver Spring would suffer from lost business.

That said, the point of my post is that YES, we should have amenities like bars and restaurants in DTSS that draw more people to the area. (And they could be more upscale, because that's a clientele that I don't think is well-served here.) Arlington is successful because they have things that actually attract people, not because they intentionally keep people out. Provide the right attractions and fill the streets with people and you already have a crime deterrent.

by dan reed! on Jul 27, 2011 2:35 pm • link • report

I used to work at NOAA and the area definitely needs at least one good bar. They only place to hang out after work is the one Irish bar. We used to go to happy hour at Eggspectations, god forbid.

by Joe Flood on Jul 27, 2011 2:37 pm • link • report

@Joe Flood:
Don't forget Quarry House! It's hard to find, so only the locals wander in. It's under Bombay Gaylord at Georgia and Bonifant.

by Matt Johnson on Jul 27, 2011 2:40 pm • link • report

Dan Reed - pretty sure the dc and pg residents that people r talking bring very little spending power to MoCo and from the daily crime reports they also make up a large part of the County's crime rate. I think most people in silver spring and the rest of MoCo won't miss these thug wannabees that start fights with and steal from innocent bystanders, while they yell vulgar curses at the top of their lungs

by mike on Jul 27, 2011 3:16 pm • link • report

@mike

You do know there are million dollar houses along 16th Street just across the DC line, right? Have you ever heard of DC's "Gold Coast?" Not to mention University Park in Prince George's five miles from DTSS, where the median income rivals Chevy Chase's. These people have money and spend it in Silver Spring, even if they weren't blessed with MoCo addresses.

by dan reed! on Jul 27, 2011 3:24 pm • link • report

I think the issue with some of these posts is that it isn't clearly articulated that we don't want the NON-law abiding citizens from PG & DC to come to DTSS. If they were all law-abiding we wouldn't be having this conversatgion.

by Woodsider on Jul 27, 2011 3:26 pm • link • report

Dan iam obviouslly not talking about those neighborhoods. Your not getting my point the kids loitering infront of chick fila starting fights are not coming from the neighborhoods u mentioned. I did not mean all of PG or all of DC. You mention the richest AA neighborhoods in the area obviously iam not talking about kids from those neighborhood. I am talking about Landover, Hyattsville, Deanwood, etc etc

by mike on Jul 27, 2011 4:10 pm • link • report

Quarry House is one of 3 only non-chain bar in all of Silver Spring - the yeeech Piratz and the meh meh meh Engine 9. And QH is in a basement. Egads.

There are plenty of families in downtown silver spring, as east SS has more new young families than you can throw a stick at. But if you are talkign nightlife... we are talking after 11 pm.... what are these children doing out at 11 pm? Seriously? The movies on the greenspace were great... til the town destroyed the green space...

But on the weekends, downtown SS is a teenagers outdoor mall hangout in as much as adams morgan is an VA/MD drunks playpen.

You cannot change that if you continue to cater to that. There is very little in downtown SS that anyone needs to go for.

by greent on Jul 27, 2011 4:24 pm • link • report

Thank you Greent.....atleast someone gets it

by mike on Jul 27, 2011 4:35 pm • link • report

Silver Spring needs bars. Period, the end. It is, far and away the most boring city in Montgomery County. With as many young professionals aged 21-35 in this city as there are it's absolutely ridiculous that our only options are Galaxy, McGinty's, Quarry House or that stupid f'ing Pirate bar.

To the people who shudder at the thought and instead demand family restaurants, how many more family restaurants do you want??? Downtown Silver Spring looks like Disney World and EVERYTHING is a family restaurant. It's time to let this city grow up and cater to the people who've been taking their money to DC and Bethesda for fun.

I don't want this city to become Adams Morgan, but I do want to see at least a decent club/dancing spot, a lounge/live music venue or two, and at least three more non-chain restaurant bars. Essentially something comparable to Bethesda's offerings - but not so obviously pandering to yuppies.

I'm not sure precisely what it is, but Dupont Circle gets it right. Go there and no matter what time the day, there aren't a bunch of ghetto idiots standing around. I think it's the fact that retail is reasonably upscale there, the restaurants and bars are not family, or chain establishments, and as the OP stated - young professionals stay out, keep the streets busy, and basically crowd out the rif-raff.

Also, for all of you here claiming these "undesirable" teens are coming from DC and PG county, that'd be a negatory. These are mostly students from Blair, Wheaton and Springbrook. Yeah, our kids. Here's a clue for getting rid of them: BURN CITY PLACE TO THE GROUND.

That mall has been a blight on Silver Spring for years. It needs to be turned into retail/dining on the bottom 2 floors and the rest into offices. Doing that alone would drive half the ghetto out of downtown.

by Bakari Kamau on Jul 28, 2011 12:27 am • link • report

Bakari Kamau- you are spot on, I agree completely with what you said

by mike on Jul 28, 2011 6:12 am • link • report

I'm 30, single, and a young professional. And I agree with what Bakari is saying, for the most part. But I disagree with this idea that urbanism can only be oriented towards young professionals. Silver Spring is successful, urban, walkable, and is family friendly. There are only a few family friendly urban and walkable places in this metro area. Dupont Circle, Clarendon, Logan Circle, etcetera - none of these places are walkable urban centers that also appeal to families. Why do you insist on throwing out places that cater to these groups so you can have more of the exact same that is in the rest of the area?

by AA on Jul 28, 2011 9:52 am • link • report

Why do you insist on throwing out places that cater to these groups so you can have more of the exact same that is in the rest of the area?
Who said throw out the family-friendly places? No one but you. Others are saying to add more stuff that is NOT family friendly - as family friendly has enough places already.

And I agree with Bakari. That mall is atrocious, and shoulda been torn down long ago.

by greent on Jul 28, 2011 10:10 am • link • report

You guys should check out Silver Spring - sounds like you havent been in awhile if Eggspectations was a serious consideration or you think there are only 3 non-chain bars in the area (three non-chain bars have opened in the last year alone - Babe's, Sidebar, & FS1, along with McGinty's which isn't a local chain anymore - the DTSS location is the only one still alive). Throw in Olazzos and 8407 for great mixed drinks and Piratz for when your drunk enough that it's actually funny (admittedly, very drunk) or the Ray's bistro/bar area when you actually want to be able to have a conversation while drinking and Quarry House when you want to get a bit louder and you've got a decent scene that'll hopefully continue to add multiple new bars every year. Oh, and there's Galaxy, which sucks, but I don't play pool so what do I know.

by jag on Jul 28, 2011 10:34 am • link • report