@ Infill station

Did you mean to add a link to "near Benning Road"?

It makes sense to have an infill station at Benning now that the streetcar is closer to being finished. That area needs all the help it can get in terms of development. A convenient metro stop would be a huge benefit. Not sure that this can cost effectively be done though with the track location on the orange and blue.

by Nicoli on Aug 3, 2011 9:19 am  

I did mean to have a link. Fixed; thanks.

by David Alpert on Aug 3, 2011 9:21 am  

I find the countdown timers very useful when driving. You have to be careful on a few because they aren't matched to the lights.

A good example of a win-win. Better for pedestrians, better for drivers. We need more of these.

by charlie on Aug 3, 2011 9:24 am  

Why does anyone need a countdown timer on a light? Pay attention, and drive when the light turns green.

The only reason for a countdown timer on a red light is so you can jump the light when it turns green. It's a city street, not a drag strip.

by MLD on Aug 3, 2011 9:30 am  

I find the countdown timers, as used by drivers, decrease safety. All too many drivers see a decreasing countdown not as an indicator that they should prepare to stop but, rather, as their last chance to desperately accelerate their vehicle to "make the light".

Speeding cars entering intersections as lights are changing are not better for anyone.

The countdown red light depicted would even be worse.

by JeffB on Aug 3, 2011 9:33 am  

An Oklahoma Avenue/Benning Road metro station would be awesome. It makes so much sense-- minor infrastructure investment, great added value to the existing system, a natural tie in to the streetcar teriminus, providing a blue line/red line connector route, and a possible place to house a power substation. The benefits for Kingman Park and Carver Langston would be enormous, and it could spearhead the long overdue redevelopment of the horrendous RFK North parking lot.

by East_H on Aug 3, 2011 9:45 am  

Warnig to Green indicators have been used outside of the US for decades, so there has to be reams of data available for safety/efficacy purposes.

Most drivers here use the pedestrian indicators or the perpendicular lights to time the green.

by TGEOA on Aug 3, 2011 9:57 am  

New Oklahoma or Benning St station would be a huge win... leveraging existing infrastructure assets is a great idea.

by enplaned on Aug 3, 2011 9:58 am  

I have to agree with MLD and JeffB. Drivers plowing through an intersection to beat a light is not ideal.

Perfect example: the new left-turn light at the intersection of 16th, U, and NH Avenue. West-bound traffic now has a left-hand turn light. The problem is that cars often try to make the turn after the light and run the real risk of hitting pedestrians who have already entered the crosswalk. I've seen two accidents happen as a result, and I'm surprised there aren't more.

by Adam L on Aug 3, 2011 10:06 am  

RE: Countdown Reds
I've seen these in use in quite a few countries, particularly among the former Soviet Bloc. However, they didn't use the radial counter; they just used a numerical countdown.

RE: Snyder / Home Rule
Not sure he's actually said he's against home rule... and as much as I join others in despising Snyder: he may actually have a point on this one.

by Bossi on Aug 3, 2011 10:06 am  

Re: Countdown Lights

In Russia, traffic lights will go from Red to Red & Yellow before they go to Green. Similarly, traffic lights will go from Green to flashing Green to Yellow and finally Red. Although traffic is generally far crazier there than here, I always found that I really liked the system a lot. It provides the driver with more information.

Also, pedestrian crosswalk signals both count down the time until it changes from walk to don't walk, as from don't walk to walk so you are not left guessing and/or tempted to jaywalk because you know precisely when you will be able to cross the street. This is something I wish we used our crosswalk to displays to do here.

by petrograd on Aug 3, 2011 10:16 am  

RE: Countdowns

Advance Green (Red+Yellow) is actually quite common throughout the world... it's actually more the rule than the exception.

Flashing greens are quite uncommon worldwide, but there are actually a few just a few hours north in Quebec; Montreal, in particular, has a decent amount of them.

Countdown "Don't Walk"s are also somewhat common elsewhere. But one caveat with additional countdowns of any variety: unless the signal is on fixed time, don't expect them to be accurate. Because DC has ped countdowns during WALK is one of the reasons why you'll see it go from something like 70 seconds to 5 seconds in an instant (and occasionally vice versa).

by Bossi on Aug 3, 2011 10:21 am  

Does anyone have a very rough estimate for what the infill station would cost? My concern is that you typically need the station to spur both high rise condos and large scale retail or offices to justify an infill station (see potomac yard or NY Ave). I have a hard time imagining that sort of TOD at okie and benning.

by Falls Church on Aug 3, 2011 10:22 am  

"The only reason for a countdown timer on a red light is so you can jump the light when it turns green. It's a city street, not a drag strip."

You must not drive a manual transmission vehicle; it's nice to know when the light is about to change so you can put your car in gear. This is a big reason why these timers are popular outside the US.

by Phil on Aug 3, 2011 10:27 am  

Also, we have too much underutilized infrastructure as it is. The city should focus on building out plans for Hill East, the Stadium area, and the SW waterfront before taking on a new project to redevelop Kingman/Carver.

by Falls Church on Aug 3, 2011 10:28 am  

RE: Countdowns

"The only reason for a countdown timer on a red light is so you can jump the light when it turns green. It's a city street, not a drag strip."

Engaging the transmission & also simple inattention can both add several seconds of startup delay, which when dealing with often highly-congested urban streets: those few seconds add up fast. Speeds can be controlled through plenty of other means to negate the folk who do a hard acceleration from a signal.

by Bossi on Aug 3, 2011 10:32 am  

I'm no fan of Dan Snyder (query - is anyone a fan of Dan Snyder?), but it's a bit much to say that he's anti-home rule (because of this, at any rate). He's not making policy pronouncements, he's trying to prevail in litigation. The lawsuit may be ill-conceived, but even so he (or more accurately, his lawyers - do you really think he came up with this argument himself?) have seized on a plausible reason that the case shouldn't be dismissed. Litigation isn't conducted in a fantasy-land of "I wish the rules were this way, so that's how I'm going to act." The challenge to the constitutionality of the anti-SLAPP law simply claims that under the current framework, the DC Council doesn't have the authority to set procedures for DC Superior Court - it doesn't take a position as to whether the current framework is true, just and consistent with the American way (at least, it typically wouldn't, although I confess I haven't looked at the papers he filed). He's simply trying to stave off dismissal. I have no idea if the argument has any merit, but if it does, he'd be nuts to eschew it.

by dcd on Aug 3, 2011 10:32 am  

@Bossi re: Synder / Home Rule

I tend to agree with you. It's a sucky situation but he's likely correct and the problem isn't unique to the District. Federal courts have rejected application of other state's anti-SLAPP laws because they violate the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. That's significant because many suits of this type get to Federal court under diversity jurisdiction.

Even still, I think the D.C. anti-SLAPP law may have a shot at prevailing, especially if you use the argument that Congress meant to prohibit the Council from changing the structure of the District's court system (e.g., allowing judges to be nominated by the mayor and approved by the Council, instead of the President and the U.S. Senate) and not meant to prohibit the Council from modifying the details of the city's tort law (which the Council has the power to do).

If the D.C. anti-SLAPP law is struck down as procedural, it seems like some lawyer out there should be smart enough to create a substantive act that would have the same effect or get Congress involved to fix this problem nationwide.

by Adam L on Aug 3, 2011 10:33 am  

RE: Infill station - would this be an above ground station? And where do the lines actually extend past Stadium Armory? All the way up to Benning? (I assume so, or RL wouldn't have proposed the idea) or would there have to be any track re-routing?

by Shipsa01 on Aug 3, 2011 10:36 am  

I like the idea of a Benning infill station, particularly if it could connect to the streetcar, since a direct metrorail-streetcar connection at Union Station is off the table. Not sure how that would work here, but I like to hope something is possible.

by Lucre on Aug 3, 2011 10:37 am  

RE: Infill OK/Benning

It's 1600' of straight track horizontally, but so near to a portal its vertical curvature is a bit pronounced... not to say it's impossible to have a station on a grade, but I can't think of any other Metrorail stations *anywhere* which are on such a slope. I certainly welcome examples to prove me wrong, though! It's not infeasible; just not ideal.

Surrounding the area is plenty of land with physical room for development, though I'm unsure of how the community would react to the potential for redevelopment; nor how the park might fit into the whole equation -- if it'd be preserved or sold off.

If an infill station were to be considered: it'd be a perfect opportunity to chase down private financing as part of the redevlepment of the surrounding land.

by Bossi on Aug 3, 2011 10:49 am  

Engaging the transmission & also simple inattention can both add several seconds of startup delay, which when dealing with often highly-congested urban streets: those few seconds add up fast.

This is particularly true on short-cycles, such as protected left turns. Often the time allows only 5-6 cars through. If the first one is slow, it means only 2-3 get through, with ripple effects including drivers going through a red left turn arrow into a pedestrian crossing.

by ah on Aug 3, 2011 10:50 am  

@DCD; all true, but the entire purpose of the law is to prevent frivolous lawsuits such as Synder's. Saying he is entitled to his day in court in one thing. Saying he is entitled to a day in court, and driving a defendant into bankruptcy based on a frivolous claim is quite another.

In this case, and the recent NSA whistleblower case, I wish judges actually handed out more sanctions. Having a lawyer cool in in jail for two weeks for making a mockery of the court process would certainly lower the number of lawsuits.

by charlie on Aug 3, 2011 10:57 am  

"@DCD; all true, but the entire purpose of the law is to prevent frivolous lawsuits such as Synder's. Saying he is entitled to his day in court in one thing. Saying he is entitled to a day in court, and driving a defendant into bankruptcy based on a frivolous claim is quite another."

I'm not sure who said, "he is entitled to a day in court, and driving a defendant into bankruptcy based on a frivolous claim is quite another." It certainly wasn't me.

If the DC Council didn't have the authority to enact the anti-SLAPP law, it's invalid and shouldn't be used as a basis for dismissal, regardless of the nobel intentions of the Council. And asserting, as the Breakfast Links blurb does, that a legal argument pointing out the potential constitutional infirmities in the law means that "Dan Snyder now stands against . . . home rule" is simply incorrect. Makes a good headline, though.

by dcd on Aug 3, 2011 11:17 am  

"query - is anyone a fan of Dan Snyder?"

Jerry Jones. Snyder's probably doing more to build the Cowboys' fan base than anything else.

by Jeff on Aug 3, 2011 11:32 am  

To follow up with Phil@10:27,
In some places it is not un-common to shut off the engine for long lights. A countdown light assists with this greatly. There is a tiny fuel savings, in any case it "adds up", particularly in places where gas/diesel, is $5 or more.

by spookiness on Aug 3, 2011 11:35 am  

RE: Infill station

I looked up some numbers and NY AVE cost $104M with with private landowners and fed govt each contributing $25M and DC govt contributing the rest. The return on this investment is as follows:

The project far exceeded the promise of 5000 new jobs and $1 billion in area investment upon the construction of the Metro station. Assessed valuation of the 35-block area increased from $535 million in 2001 to $2.3 billion in 2007. Over 15,000 jobs have been created since 1998 with $1.1 billion in private investment.

I have a hard time imagining that an OK/Ben station would come anywhere close to these benefit numbers. It probably wouldn't be that much cheaper to build even if it was easier to construct because of inflation.

Potomac Yard is going to cost $240M with bulk of money coming from the landowners. The station is expected to result in 7 million square feet of additional mixed use development. Even with these gaudy development numbers and the bulk of money coming from landowners and a special tax district, the project is in danger of not getting done.

by Falls Church on Aug 3, 2011 11:39 am  

re: red light timers

Perhaps there would be a small psychological advantage to them. Having that timer might decrease the frustration of waiting at red lights, because if drivers know exactly when it's going to switch to green, and they see the timer progressing toward green, then the frustration of getting caught at the red light would drop. Who knows?

I don't think people will use the timer to gun their way through the instant it hits zero, though.

by jyindc on Aug 3, 2011 11:54 am  

Re: Countdown timers. On my bike I love them. It lets me know if I should peddle through to the light - because I'll make it - or just start coasting to the red - because I won't(wait, I thought every cyclist ran every light). In DC they were added for pedestrian safety, and I think they work.

Re: Infill station. I think they streamlined the track from the portal to the bridge when the original station was eliminated, so you'd probably need to rebuild that section to get a long flat area to use. Ideally they'd do this in such a way as to set up the decoupled Blue and Orange lines through DC - or even in conjunction with that project. Actually, Ideally, the blue line would stay underground (going under the river) and the orange would drop below ground EOTR as well. But that's probably prohibitively expensive.

by David C on Aug 3, 2011 11:57 am  

Why is there debate about this?

Do it at every light that's being replaced. The foreign data is there to prove it's not unsafe. I haven't seen Germany mentioned yet. And if they do it, you bet it's tested and approved safe.

How to draw ANC lines?

Not.

by Jasper on Aug 3, 2011 12:05 pm  

1. The consideration of the economic value of the infill station idea is development is over long periods of time. The "new stations" in DC such as at Petworth or Columbia Heights or NOMA are generating development much faster than some of the first stage stations.

2. DC is gonna reach build out, pretty much, in our lifetime (that's why Walter Reed, the RFK area, Poplar Point, Res. 13, McMillan Reservoir, AFRH, etc. matter so much), so you need to plan forward for areas that can be better used. You plan for this now, to realize it over the next 10 years, and it takes 20 years to happen.

3. The NOMA station cost $120MM, that including relocation of a switch. This station would cost a lot too. The difference there is that it was possible to create a tax district to help pay for the benefits. It can't be done in the same way for this station as most of the land is publicly owned now, or residential (and look at the reaction of the Alexandrian residents who were to be impacted by the Potomac Yard station).

4. I haven't done recalculations lately, but in the area north of H St. and south of Florida Ave., which is about 1700 residential buildings (some, but very few, apartments), I estimated 4 years ago that each building became worth at least $200,000 more. Now DC property taxes aren't that high, but that's new taxing value of about $350 million. And that doesn't include for new construction like Loree Grand, that college student housing unit on 3rd St. NE, etc. Loree Grand (predecessor proposals) was first proposed around 1991 or 1992. Without the NY Ave. Metro, maybe it still wouldn't have broken ground.

The RFK parking lots, areas around Spingarn, Hechinger Mall, the Pentacle, etc., are ripe for redevelopment.

5. It wouldn't generate as much development as NoMA but it would still probably generate plenty, enough to be worthwhile for DC and that's all that matters, since DC would be paying for it.

And it shouldn't be considered as separate from Hill East/RFK as FallsChurch suggested, but intimately integrated with development plans there, as well as plans for H Street and north of H St.

by Richard Layman on Aug 3, 2011 12:10 pm  

I don't think people will use the timer to gun their way through the instant it hits zero, though.

I'd be stunned if countdown timers didn't increase the number of "t-bone" accidents as some idiots do just this, at the same time other idiots are speeding up to make the light.

Anyway, now that we've covered the problems, what possible benefits would this provide? Is "drivers not aggressive enough" really a burning issue we should be solving?

by oboe on Aug 3, 2011 12:19 pm  

@Petrograd (or is it "Leningrad"?)--

You seem to be quite enthusiastic about Russia, Comrade. I hope you don't agree with CCCP-nostalgic premier Putin that we're all "parasites."

by Sam on Aug 3, 2011 12:47 pm  

@DavCCountdown timers. On my bike I love them. It lets me know if I should peddle through to the light - because I'll make it - or just start coasting to the red - because I won't(wait, I thought every cyclist ran every light). In DC they were added for pedestrian safety, and I think they work.

I would imagine that this is the same logic drivers use.

by HogWash on Aug 3, 2011 12:57 pm  

@Falls Church Re: SW Waterfront Development:

Are you taking about development like this? If so those plans are well underway:

http://www.swdcwaterfront.com/about/plans.htm

by Steven Yates on Aug 3, 2011 1:08 pm  

I would imagine that this is the same logic drivers use.

There's a difference between a countdown to red and a countdown to green. Right?

by oboe on Aug 3, 2011 1:48 pm  

@oboe

Exactly. I don't see a problem with countdown to red, but I don't see the benefit except to the 0.05% of people who drive manual cars (and I used to be one of them when I had a car). If someone's not paying attention a little counter isn't going to get them to do so.

by MLD on Aug 3, 2011 1:55 pm  

err, that should be: "...I don't see the benefit of a countdown to green except to the 0.05%..."

by MLD on Aug 3, 2011 1:57 pm  

I've seen the combined red-yellow cycle, advising you that the green is coming on, all over Europe and I like it very much. People there are ready to go, and do go, immediately when the light turns, whereas here a lot of people don't know it's about to turn and so there's almost always a delay. On the other hand, one big difference between there and here is that red-light-running is a lot less common over there. I can think of a number of intersections where if you go as soon as it turns green you risk getting broadsided.

As it is now I sometimes use the countdown timer to judge when the light will go green, since in the District they're usually pretty accurate predictors. Elsewhere, or when there is no such timer, I watch the other street for the yellow to come on, and that's when I shift to first gear to be ready to go immediately on green if the way is clear. (That's a big "if," of course!)

I've never understood why the USA failed to adopt this very logical phase of the traffic signal. It seemed like such an obvious thing the first time I went to London and saw it.

BTW, regarding flashing green lights, I think I read that those are now prohibited in the USA in part because their meaning varies elsewhere. In some Canadian provinces, for example, the flashing green light denotes that your direction has an "advanced green." In other words, the oncoming traffic has a red light and you can make all your turns without conflict. In the USA a green arrow would be the preferred way to indicate this. In other places I believe the flashing green arrow has other meanings. Typically when a traffic control device is subject to widespread misinterpretation of that sort, the FHWA will prohibit it in favor of something that's thought to be unambiguous. (Those of you familiar with the new standard for the flashing yellow arrow can debate whether they necessarily succeed in that.)

by Rich on Aug 3, 2011 2:19 pm  

RL: DC is gonna reach build out, pretty much, in our lifetime...

Agree with the rest of your excellent points regarding the infill Metro station. But you should take a drive around Wards 7 & 8, which retain a suburban feel. EotR has a lot of vacant land that is unlikely to get built on in our lifetimes, even if we live another 50 years. Take the Pepco plant -- given its amazing location near so many forms of transportation, it could be a stunning mall -- is probably 30 years away, minimum.

by goldfish on Aug 3, 2011 2:25 pm  

@ Yates

Yes, I'm talking about plans like those. I'd like to see DC focus on getting those plans implemented, along with plans for the Nationals stadium, Hill East, etc.

That said, I agree with Layman's point that it's not too early to start planning for something that might not be implemented until 20 years out, such as this infill station. 20 years from now, Kingman/Carver will also be much more gentrified and then that area could more easily support the kind of development that would be needed to justify an infill station (maybe high rise condos along Benning, DC USA type retail at the station, and waterfront restaurants at Anacostia Park).

by Falls Church on Aug 3, 2011 2:52 pm  

I wonder if it would be easier/cheaper to put the station where the train comes out of the ground, just a couple hundred yards South of Benning? That might save some money and time, though it wouldn't coincide with the potential streetcar terminus.

by Bob Coomber on Aug 3, 2011 3:42 pm  

goldfish -- I do get around W7 and W8 from time to time. I live in a "suburban" area of the city compared to rowhouse neighborhoods too. (The houses are detached, about 30-36 houses to the block.)

But I don't think these kinds of neighborhoods are likely to be able to be changed very easily. DK if you are familiar in practice with how Arlington rezoned blocks comparable to mine in the Wilson Blvd. corridor, such as how Virginia Square looked in the late 1980s.

I don't think that will ever happen in DC, at least not at that scale.

Mostly, it's impossible to change owner occupied housing zoning. Rental is different.

In the next couple days I am gonna write some about this prophecy of reaching build out, which will talk about some of the densification opportunities going forward...

by Richard Layman on Aug 3, 2011 3:46 pm  

@RL -- I was thinking commercial corridors in W7 & W8, not the residential neighborhoods. Check out anywhere along South Cap or MLK...

Replacing the Pepco plant is a huge opportunity. The transportation hub there is incredible: this location could and should support much higher than normal density.

by goldfish on Aug 3, 2011 4:03 pm  

Given the cost of building power plants, I don't see replacing the pepco plant happening before its useful life is over. Replacing the plant with a nat gas one would also help DC air quality.

by Falls Church on Aug 3, 2011 4:30 pm  

Falls Church, I think the plant is already scheduled to be replaced in the next few years.

by David C on Aug 3, 2011 4:50 pm  

Thinking about the lights again...
The other advantage I see is that if the length of the light is known, people might use the time check or send messages. I suppose it would be better than if they did it while driving.

by spookiness on Aug 3, 2011 5:26 pm  

"In some Canadian provinces, for example, the flashing green light denotes that your direction has an "advanced green." In other words, the oncoming traffic has a red light and you can make all your turns without conflict."

That is the case in Québec. When you have a solid green, left turns must yield to oncoming traffic.

by dcseain on Aug 3, 2011 10:57 pm  

Re: station

If they want to build a new station how about reconfigure the route and get rid of the sharp turn and slope first; anyone that has rode Metrorail in that area knows what I’m speaking of the spot where the trains turn onto/off Benning Road where it feels like the train will tip over especially if they stop there like when there is single tracking or another train infront. Another thing they could do is keep the Blue line underground and never have it surface infront of Pepco since that cuts the whole area off from transit during storms.

@ Richard Layman

DC will not reach build out for a while what DC will reach is build out in convenient and desirable places; I could list them down to streets and intersections. If you were to survey all land in DC you would see that there is a lot of vacant lots throughout the city and if you added the total amount it would be a huge area. The problem is the land is not in desirable areas due to crime, metro access, physical location, health concerns (River Terrace see Pepco). Another issue is that a vast amount of land is filled with detached single family houses throughout all areas of DC except for SW

If DC is really running out of land than Ft Dupont Park should be carved up to make it smaller as it is the biggest obstacle in DC east of the Anacostia or disconnect all the parks (they all connect in SE/NE east of the River except Oxon Run and Ft Stanton) You could walk from Capitol Heights to Anacostia following nothing but parks if you wished.

by kk on Aug 4, 2011 11:31 pm