Comments on Join the authors of Dream City on October 17th - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by OctaviusIII

Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:22:58 EDT

Blast! I'll be at the Rail~volution film/happy hour tonight instead. This sounds absolutely fascinating, though, as my knowledge of the post home-rule years is derived almost entirely by innuendo and common "knowledge". Hopefully I can find the book around.

Have fun all!

Comment by ACG

Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:06:25 EDT

This is a fantastic book which I think has a lot of relevance for DC today. How can we even begin to confront DC's corruption without learning from the Barry Administration's missteps. Why would people on this thread be indignant about the fact its 20+ years old...

I'd like to hear how the authors conceive of the DC economy today. The indicated in the book that a commercial real estate boom was responsible for DC's success in the 80s. i wonder if the DC market is still conceived as "stable" given the prospect of major government cuts... Where will new growth in DC originate from? Are we in a real estate bubble?

Comment by christopher

Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:48:33 EDT

will there be an opportunity to buy the book and/or get it signed? I borrowed from the library and thoroughly enjoyed it, but would love having my own signed copy.

Comment by Geoffrey Hatchard

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:00:21 EDT

greent: I look forward to seeing you there then! I'll be sure to introduce myself.

Comment by greent

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:58:52 EDT

Sure thing Geoffrey. I often see GGW blog posts about a 20 year old book... nope, not a one. A blog that is 80-90% about city growth (development cleared up for ya) and transportation issues... politics only around the elections and when it is about an issue... is now doing a whole bit on politics as a whole?

I doubt this has no point but a "hey did you know" historical roundtable. We'll see what the point is, when the point is made.

Comment by Geoffrey Hatchard

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:39:01 EDT

greent: GGW has been devoted to writing about all the ways that life can be made better in the greater Washington area for years now. The blog was never solely about transportation and 'development' (that's a rather vague term).

There's no shift of focus here.

Comment by greent

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:29:29 EDT

@Richard: greent -- you don't think that the way of the world described in _Dream City_ describes how municipal govt. functions here (today)?
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Not as much as you, obviously. And, no, I don't. I think what has occured over the last few years is done by the same people (the legacy children of the old order included), but I think ALOT has changed since 1991-1993 when this books was being researched.

That there is still corruption, sure. But the level of it? Not even close. The lack of functioning city services? No. A total lack of fiscal accountability? No. The turn a blind eye and forget what you see bribery? Not even a comparison then to now. The biggest bribes we worry about today are taxi drivers and corporations... not drug dealers?

C'mon Richard, it's why people who did live here then did not jump on the Fenty followers "it'll be just like Barry" campaign... because nothing can bring back that city. Sure, some of Mayor Gray's team are in that power broker... but the man is old as dust... of course he goes with the power strcutre he was raised in. But as you can see by the stunning amount of Gray appointees that have been derided, removed and/or not appointed - the power is not there - for none of that would not have happened under Barry (he would have pushed through all appointments, regardless).

That Gray is a devout member of that old paternal black caucaus is without question. That that caucaus has as much power now as it did then? As the make-up of the city changes, so too shall the power politics, so no, I do not think it does.

If Fenty had been nicer and just met with Angelou and Height, and actually talked about the city services provided for Ward 8 during hsi term, and NOT hired a quite bitchy and uppity beyond reason korean lady to run the schools, he never would have lost the blogger vote and woulda kept the middle class black vote.. he'd still be mayor. And this book would be a dustbin collector for people who like history, not a primer for understanding old school dc politics for the newer arrivals monitored by a new arrival.

If there is anything new, I look forward to the journalists and authors to present it. But no, I think this is a rather odd discussion group sponsered by a blog supposedly devouted to transportation and development. I guess GGW is branching out.... I wonder why....

Comment by Rain17

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:06:19 EDT

The biggest legacy that I see from Barry is that he was a very smart educated man, a Ph.D in fact, who was able to act "ghetto" and win. The tragedy for the people of Ward 8, who continue to elect him, is that he did very little to them. He ironically laid the groundwork for what DC is today in his last term. Had he not gotten in trouble with drugs and women he might have well been regraded as one of DC's best mayors.

But the darker side of his legacy is that older people I knew who fled DC after the riots still vividly remember him. They still think DC is as dysfunctional as it was in the 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s. They will forever view DC in a negative light also because of Barry.

Comment by Cavan

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:57:48 EDT

@Richard,

"I actually think Gray is whip smart, but I'm wondering if he is too much a creature of the same system that Barry and others created."

Now you're wondering? It was obvious from the campaign.

Comment by meanteeth

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:35:03 EDT

You do know that Marion Barry was wearing dashikis when he was first elected to the school board, right? Have you read the book (because those of us who were alive & living in DC remember it well).

Comment by Richard Layman

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:28:05 EDT

In the question to greent, I meant how DC govt. functions "today."

Comment by Richard Layman

Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:27:25 EDT

greent -- you don't think that the way of the world described in _Dream City_ describes how municipal govt. functions here? Yes, Mayor Williams changed the climate somewhat. Maybe Fenty did too, but in my opinion it was more of a matter of selecting a different group of people to specially benefit, with some focus on improving municipal functioning, maybe. I actually think Gray is whip smart, but I'm wondering if he is too much a creature of the same system that Barry and others created.

(And in fairness, this happens elsewhere too, and has for hundreds of years cf. _Political Parties_ by Michels + anything about Tammany Hall, Robert Moses, etc.

Comment by greent

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 16:20:55 EDT

@Hog: every once in a while, miracles do happen. As to the dashiki - I recall the 1993/94 dashiki wearin Barry, when he was running for his last mayoral terms. It was derided by many in the press as a gimmick. But then again... that's a career politician for you. Gimmick works round here.

I have the book if anyone wants to read it. It is interesting... but I am fascinated that people think this is still how DC functions. Or is this the blogs way of "understanding the anger and backlash of the gary campaign?" Is this the "this is the old guard, not understanding this is why Fenty failed" explanation?

Comment by HogWash

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:55:29 EDT

@John, thanks and I think it would have been more helpful had you included just a tad bit more about what GGW expects/hopes attendees would get from the event. This doesn't happen everyday (at all actually) but if greent is thinking along the same lines as lil ol' me, I may be on to something. :)

+1@Greent. I agree but even "historical facts" can carry a special meaning. I don't really have the context for the description but if the period was in the 70's or early 80's, I can imagine that there weren't very many politicians in majority black cities who didn't "become black" (if you will) during that time. No biggie - just an odd description for these times.

@DCster, thanks for the suggestion and oddly enough, I see that the book w/a more sympathetic view of Barry was written by blacks. I've found that blacks generally have a somewhat different take on Barry than others. Not that they love him. They just don't seem to take the same approach when discussing him or his failings.

@SE, I may cop one of those but it certainly won't be the one baras wrote or anything by her for that matter.

Comment by Richard Layman

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:43:52 EDT

the book's relevance isn't so much about Barry, as much as it's about what he represents in terms of how the city developed its political institutions post-Home Rule. The city functions the same way as it did under barry. That's why reading Dream City is still an important thing to do.

The book is at the library but out of print. This review from Washington Monthly covers the jist.

- http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Dream+City%3A+Race,+Power,+and+the+Decline+of+Washington,+D.C.,...-a015151999

And the Gillette book mentioned by SE Erudite is good in that it explains what the differences in positions of "social justice" vs. "quality of life" are about. Barry and the like represent the social justice/jobs/making things better for African-Americans viewpoint, whereas people like me care more about the quality of life, placemaking, and the delivery of municipal services.

Similarly, I think of Dream City as a good illustration of Molotch's "Growth Machine" thesis, although I am sure that neither reporter delves much into urban sociological theory.

- http://web.archive.org/web/20050430232141/http://nw-ar.com/face/molotch.html

Comment by SE Erudite

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:27:32 EDT

I don't think this is a book reading. It seems to be a conversation of interest to many people.

Additional books on the years in question:

The Last of the Black Emperors : The Hollow Comeback of Marion Barry in a New Age of Black Leaders by Jonetta Barras -- http://amzn.to/re52ds

Marion Barry: The Politics of Race by Jonathan Agronsky http://amzn.to/nbpe8B

Between Justice and Beauty: Race, Planning, and the Failure of Urban Policy in Washington, D.C. by Howard Gillette, Jr. http://amzn.to/otQiYk

Comment by DCster

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:13:58 EDT

For another view of the Barry mayorality (and subsequent administrations), read 'Democratic Destiny and the District of Columbia.' Published last year, the chapter on Barry was much more sympathetic than what I recall reading in Dream City, though I felt 'Democratic Destiny' approached the DC mayors more from an African American and policy perspective and less from a general city-wide political perspective.

Comment by greent

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 14:56:55 EDT

You gotta admit that describing Barry as evolving into a dashiki/kofia-wearing soul brotha carrys a certain meaning.
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Well, seeing as that is exactly what he did during the times in question, the meaning would be historical accuracy.

I concur with Hog: It is an interesting book, but why now? Are S&S coming out with a new edition? Is there something new and fascinating that is based on the book (movie, play etc.) coming out? Does Mike Debonis need something to do that night? Or is this just a historical discussion of what DC was like in 1994 for the GGW folks?

Why have a book reading about a book from 17 years ago?

Comment by John Muller

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 14:26:12 EDT

@Hog -- This is a discussion about the book and its two authors. We look forward to seeing you there and encourage your participation in the Q/A session.

Comment by HogWash

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 14:20:16 EDT

What is the nature of GGW's interest in talking about the barry years? What are the attendees expected to take away from the discussion?

Admittedly, I'm not really excited about the idea of rehashing the barry years through the prism of two white men. I do like reading about how DC became DC though.

Will there be any black panelists/moderators or is it just the discussion led by those two? You gotta admit that describing Barry as evolving into a dashiki/kofia-wearing soul brotha carrys a certain meaning.

Comment by Richard Layman

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 13:07:32 EDT

The funny thing about Jaffe is that his columns in the Examiner read as if he has absolutely no passing familiarity with the above-mentioned book.

WRT your mentioning _When Washington Went to War_, I found it very enlightening with regard to the incongruence between Republican and Democratic Party perspectives. If you were to read that book, about the vehement antipathy expressed regarding FDR, it wouldn't sound that much different from the anti-Obamaism of today.

Comment by Steve D

Tue, 04 Oct 2011 12:16:11 EDT

Thanks to Richard Layman and his blog, I picked up that book before I'd even moved to DC years ago. An essential read for any DC rez. Looking forward to the discussion.