I'd say keep them. Better to deal with it as it comes. And maybe having a big pile of snow in the middle of a thru-lane will mobilize people to think about how we plow in general and get a Mule or RTV with a plow attachment on some of the major trails as well.

by Canaan on Nov 17, 2011 10:05 am • link • report

I agree to keep them in; no more than it snows in this city it hardly seems worth the hassle of more cars in the bike lane than already intrude.
Would it be possible to pull them for a short time, i.e. when snow is forecast, then put them back in again?

by Joe on Nov 17, 2011 10:10 am • link • report

Isn't that lane needed to pile the snow during the big storms? Meaning the real question is 'does DDOT risk plowing over the pylons and having to replace them the next Spring or is it better to just remove them before that lane is needed for piling up the snow, and then replace them. I guess it depends the cost of the pylons. If cheap enough, maybe it's just easier to replace them if need be?

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 10:19 am • link • report

I would assume it's easier to bike through a couple inches of snow than it is to bike through black ice? I don't bike in bad weather, though, so I defer to the commuters for the answer.

by tom veil on Nov 17, 2011 10:20 am • link • report

Keep the pylons! It is not a question of whether drivers know where they are supposed to be driving or not. If the pylons are not there, drivers who know very well they are not supposed to be encroaching on the bike lane will do so anyway in order to cut the corner. Driving past the pylon and turning the steering wheel more sharply is more difficult than just cutting the corner. Drivers will always follow the path of least resistance. I don't think the trade-off is a little worse all days vs. a lot worse a few days. It is more like inherently unsafe all days vs. knowing you won't be able to bike a few days. Framed that way, keeping the pylons wins hands down.

by Early Man on Nov 17, 2011 10:28 am • link • report

@Lance -

No, those lanes are needed by the cyclists for whom they were designed.

by Jon Renaut on Nov 17, 2011 10:28 am • link • report

Keep the pylons. You can always bike in the car lanes on the few days a year that the car lanes are clear but the bike lanes are not.

by Falls Church on Nov 17, 2011 10:33 am • link • report

Keep them up. I think most of us would not plan on biking on snow days but we would need them up for the weeks/months without snow.

by Mike on Nov 17, 2011 10:34 am • link • report

@Jon R, So where do you propose they put the snow? If I knew how to link to images on here, I could link many images from past snowfalls where that's exactly where the snow has been piled in the past? Do you think we should instead pile it one the sidewalk? or an additional lane of traffic (remember it's rare that all lanes are open anyway when there's a big snow.) No, that's where they've always piled the snow and given that if there's more than a couple of inches the bicyclists won't be out there using the lanes anyways, I suspect that's where they will need to continue plowing the snow. So, the question remains 'Is it cheaper to remove all pylons at the start of the snow season and re-install them in the Spring? or is it cheaper to leave them up and if any get plowed over during the clean up operations for a big snow, to just replace the damaged pylons in the Spring?"

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 10:37 am • link • report

@Lance - I don't think you can really compare "convenience of piling infrequent snowfall" or "cost of replacing pylons" with "safety of bike commuters".

So, I can't really answer your question - it's based on assumptions that I don't think are correct.

As an aside, one of the reasons so many cyclists don't ride when there's a bit of snow is because cycling infrastructure often isn't plowed, or is used to dump snow so the cars can get through.

by Jon Renaut on Nov 17, 2011 10:50 am • link • report

And if replacing (or removing and then re-installing) the pylons comes out of DDOT's bicycle budget (as it rightfully should) then cost definitely becomes a consideration for our bicyclists. costs balanced against safety.

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 10:51 am • link • report

I think this misses the larger point that for as long as I have lived in this city, the median is where the snow was plowed to get it out of the traffic lanes. When it snows, those pylons are going to get destroyed and the bike lanes put under piles of snow EVERY single time they plow.

The only other option is to plow it all onto the sidewalks which as you can imagine would be a non-starter.

by freely on Nov 17, 2011 10:52 am • link • report

Maybe they could keep the pylons at the intersections, to keep the cars honest, while removing them in between.

by Alan on Nov 17, 2011 10:54 am • link • report

Alan: The pylons are already only at the intersections, not in between.

by David Alpert on Nov 17, 2011 11:05 am • link • report

Of course they should be removed for snow removal. Common sense.

by Pelham1861 on Nov 17, 2011 11:12 am • link • report

Leave the pylons. The political support may not be there to restore them next Spring.

by Jeff on Nov 17, 2011 11:18 am • link • report

As a daily commuter who cycles that route through the winter (including snow), I say KEEP the pylons. In particular, the intersection of Penna Ave and Constitution needs the bollards to protect cyclists from westbound cars turning left from Pennsylvania to Constitution. Without the bollards adjacent to the bicycle stop bar, cars would cut the corner on that 45-degree angle and run a good chance of clipping cyclists waiting at the red light.

by KG on Nov 17, 2011 11:21 am • link • report

Isn't that lane needed to pile the snow during the big storms?

Trolling out of the top drawer. Chapeau!

:)

by oboe on Nov 17, 2011 11:21 am • link • report

Keep them. Many out-of-town drivers utilize this street, making cyclists especially vulnerable to a driver unknowingly cutting off their lane because they're simply not familiar with sharing the road.

One thought is, if DDOT is already taking preventative measures (putting down sand or salt), could they preemptively remove the pylons on a temporary basis, then put them back after? That would seem preferable to removing them altogether for the entire season.

by Whitney on Nov 17, 2011 11:22 am • link • report

The last couple of years have distorted the perception of the incidence of snow in DC. It rarely snows here and removing the pylons on the chance that it might snow against the everyday delineation of the bike lanes as 'no cars here' is not worth the aggravation. Unless of course we are in the midst of some sort of weather cycle that is going to bring snow-maggedon here for a decade or so in which case I'm totally and miserably wrong.

by Riley on Nov 17, 2011 11:22 am • link • report

Oh....common sense. Well that is a compelling argument. Can I just add "common sense" to the end of any statement and make it true?

Of course they shouldn't report child molesters. Common sense.
Of course we should disband the coast guard. Common sense.

Seems reasonable since common sense has been proven infallible.
Of course the world is flat. Common sense.
Of course slavery is ok. Common sense.
Of course life generates spontaneously. Common sense.

by David C on Nov 17, 2011 11:23 am • link • report

I propose that we switch to only plowing sidewalks and bike lanes, and piling all the snow into traffic lanes. After all, why are drivers always automatically preferred when it comes to snow removal?

Pennsylvania Ave coincidentally has the luxury of many lanes, so this proposal isn't as absurd as one might think. Close one lane for the snow pile until there's time to cart it off elsewhere.

Sidewalks are easiest to clear, and allow people to get to Metro stations to get home. Let's face it -- driving in a snowstorm in the DC area is always going to be a very bad idea, and Metro's been very reliable in the snow. It takes a lot of snow to shut down Metro -- it's happened, but we had many hours of advance warning. However, sidewalks are the only transportation infrastructure that the city doesn't take responsibility for clearing.

by andrew on Nov 17, 2011 11:23 am • link • report

Don't all the traffic lights in the median already come out for things like the Inaugural Parade (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Obama_Cadillac_limousine_in_2009_inaugural_parade.jpg)?

It seems that the pylons should already be easily removable. If they're not now, then what are we going to do in January 2013? If they pre-treat Pennsylvania for an impending storm, they should remove them to ease in snow removal. It sucks for bicyclists but in the winter, all road users have to make some sacrifices. Sometimes, entire vehicle lanes are closed. Sometimes, roads themselves are closed.

by Sam on Nov 17, 2011 11:24 am • link • report

Can I just add "common sense" to the end of any statement and make it true?

I think it was Einstein who defined "common sense" as "the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."

Of course, he was an elitist college boy...

by oboe on Nov 17, 2011 11:33 am • link • report

The most reasonable option is more pylons and heating coils under the pavement in the bike lane to melt the snow.

I really don't think that it makes sense to remove the pylons. Given the traffic lights, cobblestones, and other obstacles (and the fact that the lanes are in the middle of the road), I doubt that the plows are going to be able to do a great job of clearing the snow from the bike lanes anyway. The remaining spots of snow will undermine the value of pulling the pylons.

BTW, the argument that DDOT used to pile the snow in the median before there was a bike lane there does not provide a compelling justification for continuing to dump the snow there now that there is a bike lane there.

by Todd on Nov 17, 2011 11:42 am • link • report

@Todd

Great point about the obstacles of plowing the lanes. The cobbles/pavers at the medians will take an absolute beating from highway plows. Repairing/replacing them will add to the cost of putting the bike lanes back into shape in the spring.

by KG on Nov 17, 2011 11:47 am • link • report

"Pennsylvania Ave coincidentally has the luxury of many lanes, so this proposal isn't as absurd as one might think. Close one lane for the snow pile until there's time to cart it off elsewhere"

Almost 36K vehicles per day use PA avenue, DDOT's bike numbers show us 56 cyclists per hour use the PA Ave bike lanes. This is ofcourse, on nice days and not reflective of the massive falloff of cycling ridership in the winter months.

So no, if we are looking at "luxury of space", that median where the snow has always been plowed is truely a luxury of space.

by freely on Nov 17, 2011 11:53 am • link • report

Sam wrote: It seems that the pylons should already be easily removable. If they're not now, then what are we going to do in January 2013? If they pre-treat Pennsylvania for an impending storm, they should remove them to ease in snow removal

This.

by Arl Anon on Nov 17, 2011 11:54 am • link • report

I'll say I haven't thought this through yet, but just wanted to put this out for others to dwell on: what if the pylons were located to the centerline instead of on each side? And if so- how might this fare as a temporary winter condition or potentially as a permanent year-round fixture?

by Bossi on Nov 17, 2011 12:01 pm • link • report

@KG "Great point about the obstacles of plowing the lanes. The cobbles/pavers at the medians will take an absolute beating from highway plows. Repairing/replacing them will add to the cost of putting the bike lanes back into shape in the spring.

They're not plowing the area where the cobblestone/pavers (and now the bike lanes) are ... just using that area to push the snow into. Pushing snow onto cobblestone/pavers isn't going to hurt them any ... pushing snow onto these pylons will probably destroy them. That's the difference.

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 12:04 pm • link • report

Geez Lance, you really take the fun out of trying to provide thoughtful comments on a forum like this. Now, put your troll hat back in the drawer and read what I said: The road plows (if used on the lanes at the medians) would likely damage the pavers.

by KG on Nov 17, 2011 12:17 pm • link • report

@KG, I'd read what you said and was pointing out that it's not a matter of the plows being used 'on the lanes at the medians' ... they'll be using those lanes (i.e., the bike lanes) to pile the snow on to ...

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 12:19 pm • link • report

@Lance,

No, it IS a matter of the plows being used in the lanes at the medians. You are the one who stated the purpose of the bike lanes was for piling snow. The actual question at hand is whether DDOT should remove the pylons to make it easier to clear the bike lanes. From the original post: "DDOT is pondering how to ensure they can plow the Pennsylvania Avenue bike lanes when snow does come."

by KG on Nov 17, 2011 12:24 pm • link • report

From the original post: "DDOT is pondering how to ensure they can plow the Pennsylvania Avenue bike lanes when snow does come."

Maybe I'm too slow to follow your line of argument, but I don't get it. Isn't that where all the snow is supposed to be piled up so drivers aren't inconvenienced?

I thought we all agreed--as a society--that that's what we were going to do. Next you'll be advocating we shovel the sidewalks so pedestrians can prance about on them.

by oboe on Nov 17, 2011 12:30 pm • link • report

@KG "The actual question at hand is whether DDOT should remove the pylons to make it easier to clear the bike lanes."

The answer to that question is easy: NO

Those lanes already have a purpose when it snows ... as evidenced by everything you've read above. The planners of the bike lanes should have considered that they won't be available for biking on when they're needed for piling snow on. Maybe they did. Who's going to be out there on a bike when you have more than a couple inches of snow anyways? Think back to last year and when the CaBi racks got used as places to put the snow ... and no one even missed them ...

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 12:55 pm • link • report

so like a I said in my first post, the REAL question is do you leave them in and take your chances on replacing broken/crushed pylons at the end of the season or do you get proactive and remove them before the need arises to pile snow there. And that's where you need to weigh safety vs. cost (out of DC's bicycling budget) ...

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 12:57 pm • link • report

And it's an important consideration because the more bike budget dollars that get spent on replacing these pylons the less there is available for building new bike paths and the like ...

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 12:58 pm • link • report

Lance - they've never put the snow in the middle of Penn. Ave., even in big storms. Please stop pretending otherwise.

by dukiebiddle on Nov 17, 2011 12:59 pm • link • report

OK, enough with the snow in the median stuff, please. Lance, I like having your perspective but you are out-filibustering others at this point. I'd like to give other people a chance to say whether they think they'd like to a) keep the pylons and have the lane likely unplowed for 24-48 hours after a storm or b) take out the pylons but have the lane cleared at the same time as the rest of the roadway.

by David Alpert on Nov 17, 2011 1:03 pm • link • report

Bossi wrote (to paraphrase): what if a single row of pylons were located at the centerline, instead of the existing two rows of pylons (one on each side of the bike track)?"

Good idea, I think. The plow could cut just right of the centerline and move the snow to the right. After one pass in each direction, all that would be left is a thin strip of snow along the center line.

by Alan on Nov 17, 2011 1:24 pm • link • report

I'd say keep the pylons where they are. On days where there's any bad weather at all, everyone (drivers, peds, cyclists) start to look for shortcuts. Visibility is worse. Everyone's distracted. We thus need more safety equipment on those days.

For reference: I bike every day of the year except during snow that's more than a dusting, and have for years. A couple of good spills when turning on snowy roads convinced me to splurge on Metro or a cab on snowy days. (During snowpocalypse I just walked. It was faster.) I don't actually use the PA ave daily any more, but I have in the past.

by Bill on Nov 17, 2011 1:26 pm • link • report

I don't much care either way. I will be biking through there all winter (even snow). If the lanes are bikeable, I'll go there, otherwise I'll go back to the right hand lane with the rest of traffic.

Also, at Penn & Constitution (heading east), I always stop right next to the concrete posts, not the little plastic thingies. The way people take that corner making a left, I don't trust a little plastic.

by JH on Nov 17, 2011 1:29 pm • link • report

@dukiebiddle 'Lance - they've never put the snow in the middle of Penn. Ave., even in big storms. Please stop pretending otherwise.

yeah right ... never ...

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_584/1298310252201PKC.jpg

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 1:31 pm • link • report

If they removed the pylons before an impending storm, and reinstalled them after the lanes/road got cleared, I don't see that being terribly much of a problem.

It sucks for the day of the storm, but are you really going to be riding your bike in a blizzard? I consider myself a fairly dedicated cyclist, and bike year-round, including times when there's snow on the ground. However, I'd stop short of biking in an actual snowstorm.

If they remove the pylons, and don't install them until 3-4 months later, then there's a problem.

by andrew on Nov 17, 2011 1:52 pm • link • report

Okay ... David ...

My opinion on your question would be to leave the pylons in given how rarely we get a 2 inch or more snowfall down here AND given the safety they provide. On those rare instances they actually got destroyed by the plows, then I'd hope they got replaced in the Spring. (P.S. I don't see DC having the money to uninstall/reinstall every time there's the threat of snow. Those pylons are certainly cheaper to replace if broken than the labor is to install/reinstall.)

by Lance on Nov 17, 2011 2:52 pm • link • report

Lance,

I think they plan to pay for the pylon removal/re-installation by raising parking meter fees - through the roof. But I could be wrong.

by David C on Nov 17, 2011 3:52 pm • link • report

My opinion on your question would be to leave the pylons in given how rarely we get a 2 inch or more snowfall down here AND given the safety they provide. On those rare instances they actually got destroyed by the plows, then I'd hope they got replaced in the Spring. (P.S. I don't see DC having the money to uninstall/reinstall every time there's the threat of snow. Those pylons are certainly cheaper to replace if broken than the labor is to install/reinstall.)

This.

1) In most snowstorms this won't be an issue. A small plow can come the next day.

2) The cost of the pylons is mostly in labor. What does the post cost--$10? The labor is probably 5-10 times that. If they get broken by a plow, install new ones in the Spring. Why pay $50 to remove one to save the $10 cost of replacing it if it's broken (you have to pay to install either way).

3) Plows don't plow to the middle, they plow to the sides because that's how the plow is angled. When we had large snows two years ago, it was pile up along the curb.

by ah on Nov 17, 2011 4:35 pm • link • report

Copenhagen Cycle Chic has a lovely video somewhere showing the bike-lane-sized snowplows in Copenhagen. Instead of paying to remove/reinstall the pylons, DC should invest in one of those snowplows.

As others have pointed out, why should the bike lanes and bikers suffer? Just pile the snow in one of the traffic lanes; there's many to choose from on PA Ave.

by Pylon Lover on Nov 17, 2011 6:08 pm • link • report

The photo that Lance provided shows human beings walking in the middle of the road. Ergo, the travel lanes are meant for pedestrians.

Q.E.D.

(For what it's worth, I remember seeing where Pierre L'Enfant explicitly declared that the center of Pennsylvania Avenue was for the piling of snow. Thus it was, and thus it shall ever be. We fear change.)

by Geoffrey Hatchard on Nov 18, 2011 1:57 pm • link • report

Plows could easily push snow into the lanes monopolized by idling tour buses in the far right eastbound lane of the Avenue, between the Old Post Office and the National Gallery of Art.(Better yet: dump the dirty snow and ice INTO the buses, facilitating removal of both snow and buses.)

Snowfall: one of the best traffic-calming measures ever!

by Sydney on Nov 18, 2011 2:29 pm • link • report

I vote option a) keep the pylons.

by Rory Finneren on Nov 18, 2011 3:10 pm • link • report

KEEP the pylons in place...We should generally be moving in the direction of greater physical separation of these bike lanes, and other bike lanes throughout DC, from other travel lanes, throughout the year. In a snowstorm where snow may cover thermoplastic lane markings and some get sloppy in their motoring, these pylons will provide a particularly important visual reminder of where the bike lane begins.

Going forward, we will be seeing more of these bike lanes in DC, so why not guide DDOT in the direction of greater investment in smaller snow removal equipment for more detailed snow removal work on cyclist and pedestrian rights-of-way?

Oh, and one more suggestion to all: "please, do not feed the trolls."

by Critical Chris on Nov 21, 2011 11:28 am • link • report

Keep the pylons. Please.

As others have suggested, it is penny wise / pound foolish to remove them and then replace them in spring. In the meantime, at night, in the rain, etc. it is exponentially safer with those lane markers in place for cyclists.

by timo on Nov 21, 2011 3:35 pm • link • report

Option E! http://www.land-of-snow.com/images/snow_dump_truck.jpg

Put the snow in a dump truck and cart it to the middle of the National Mall. Create a giant snow slide for tourists.

Lived in NB, Canada for awhile and this is how they deal with all their excess snow.

by RC on Nov 21, 2011 7:55 pm • link • report

@RC I like your idea . It make sense. And i just want to add that there is some companies that offer a better ATV snow plow or snow plow blade, So we choose the right one.

by Johnny on Nov 22, 2011 11:12 pm • link • report