I must have somehow missed this.... $2.5 billion for BRT?

At that price, they'd better be engineering the guideways to support an "upgrade" to Light Rail or streetcar at some point in the future, because bus projects typically don't come with a billion dollar price tag attached.

by andrew on Nov 22, 2011 10:05 am  

The "alternative waterfront plan" was a sad joke: a maritime museum that would attract half-a-million visitors a year? A single boutique hotel? If you don't like living in a city, you should consider moving to the country. Because Old Town isn't a time capsule and without a broader tax base, the city is unsustainable. But by all means, put up bogus arguments about how yacht clubs are an essential part of the local economy. This should have been eminent domained years ago. Time to STFU and GTFO.

by monkeyrotica on Nov 22, 2011 10:21 am  

May I just say, the links summaries here are much improved.

by charlie on Nov 22, 2011 10:25 am  

@andrew--if you look at the County's BRT plan, you will see that it is massive--150 miles--and is aiming to have a high percentage of the system in guideways. That can bring you to $2 billion pretty easily.

by thesixteenwords on Nov 22, 2011 10:54 am  

@monkeyrotica--

Where does it appear that the people against the City's waterfront plan "don't like living in a city"? People who live in Old Town live in the densest part of the City of Alexandria and have chosen to do so. What we DON'T want is to turn into National Harbor (which the City's plan is starting to feel like). And if you don't understand why not, then you've clearly never been to National Harbor. ::Shudder::.

I'm not a member of the Citizens for an Alternate Waterfront Plan or whatever they call themselves, but I do NOT like the City's plan as presented.

One, I'm not big on eminent domain. Seems wrong to me. Even though I think that boat club and by extension its members are insufferable snobs who really ought to compromise.

Two for me, it's the hotels issue. We already have SO MANY flipping hotels in Old Town--half of them are empty. We just don't need more. Period. Maybe if they'd make it mid rise apartment lofts or something, fine. But no more hotels, already. Otherwise it WILL be just like National Harbor. A hotel ghost town.

by Catherine on Nov 22, 2011 12:40 pm  

Anything that demotes Arlington's REP. on the WMATA Board is a good thing. if ever there was a non-responsive group of bad government folks...it would be in from Arlington. You mentioned we should 'watch' how the new Board acts. There is nothing to watch...unfortunately this Board operates with far too little supervision.

by Pelham1861 on Nov 22, 2011 1:39 pm  

@catherine: there are arguably other parts of Alexandria that are denser. I'm working on a map to verify/refute that.

But Monkeyrotica has a point. I've seen it firsthand at the Transit Corridor A meetings. At an absolute minimum, the more vocal of Old Town residents are *VERY* fearful of change and are about as NIMBY as one can get.

Could the city have done a better job? Absolutely. For example, using the boat club land for something strictly PUBLIC (i.e. public park, infrastructure, public boat launch) would give the city a better position for using eminent domain on the boat club (Kelo vs. city of New London decision notwithstanding). Explaining WHY they disagree with the citizens on various aspects would be good to do. But at the same time, I have yet to see a plan from the citizens that doesn't smack of NIMBYism/keeping-the-status-quo.

BTW, besides Hotel Monaco, where are the Old Town hotels, besides the ones near King St Metro or North Old Town? Or were those the ones you were referring to?

by Froggie on Nov 22, 2011 3:34 pm  

Either way, even if it is not *the* densest part of Alexandria (which, based on everything I've seen, data-wise and anecdotal observation-wise; it is), it is among the very densest in Alexandria, and even DC area taken as a whole.

And are there NIMBYs in Old Town? Sure. They're everywhere. But I don't think that it's nearly as bad as you're painting (and for what it's worth, I've noticed that people tend to paint older, wealthy populations who are against a proposed change as "NIMBYs" a HECK of a lot quicker than other sorts of populations, and I think that people should be a little more careful about that).

Anyway, every Old Town resident I've talked to about this WANTS change on the Waterfront. And wants it yesterday. Everyone loves the continuous boardwalk idea, the pier on King Street (yes, that you'd have to take the boat club's parking lot to build), the public kayak launch etc. The status quo, frankly, sucks and is a waste of valuable space.

But I don't know many people who like the City plan part-and-parcel. And for most people, it's the building height issue and the hotel issue. And yes, I'm refering to the hotels around the King Street Metro and North Old Town (though there is also the Morrison House). As far as I'm concerned, 22314 is all one neighborhood and these 4-square-block mini-neighborhood distinctions are a silly aside. The hotels are largely underused, and there are too many of them too close together and as a result the immediate surroundings of those places are dead zones. Hooray! Let's take THAT plan to our waterfront, too!

If at least some of that real estate was residential, you'd see more life and activity in those sections. Placing hotels all along the waterfront is NOT a resident-friendly use of that space. Why NOT apartment buildings, for example? Outdoor theater? Giant playground?

Also, I know Andrew MacDonald, I knew him when he was on City Council and was the Vice Mayor. He's not "fearful of change" or a NIMBY, and he wants a revitalized waterfront just as much as if not more than the next guy. But just not the way the City's planned it. Again, I'm not part of that group because I *don't* agree with a lot of their stance. But the City's plan isn't exactly perfect, and I think it's throwing residents under the bus in the hopes of making a few more bucks from yet-more hotel rooms.

And finally, no. Old Town is not a living museum but it IS one of the oldest residental areas in the country and I think that that's good reason to stop and think long and hard before making drastic changes. Without the dreaded "historic preservation crowd", they'd have knocked down the lovely Penn Station and thrown a brutlist arena over its remains. Oh wait....

by Catherine on Nov 22, 2011 4:02 pm  

Certain Old Town residents expect heaps of public money to be spent on "open space" along the waterfront in order to have a nice place for rich people to take their dogs to sh*t. The cities plan is balanced, and a few small boutique hotels do not equal National Harbor or "BRACing the Waterfront". I can't wait for this issue to just get settled and die. I don't participate in Alexandria planning/politics/development issues much because I can't stand the same cast of characters over and over again. As a non-Old Town Alexandria resident, I welcome a new and updated mix of development that gives me reason to go there, and spend a little less money in Arlington and DC. Of course the Old Townies don't want anybody to go there at all, unless they're magically transported like on Star Trek without the use of a car, or horrors, a tour bus. I imagine when Cabi is finally introduced, there will lamentations and public forums about the bike traffic, parking impacts, or other "quality of life" threats.

by spookiness on Nov 22, 2011 4:06 pm  

I'm an Old Town resident and I'm neither rich nor a dog owner nor do I want the waterfront to be open space. I would LOVE a new and updated mix of development though that wouldn't "give me a reason to go there". Honestly, if you can't come up with a reason to come to Old Town now, I HIGHLY doubt that smacking a few exclusive hotels along the waterfront will. Hotels are NOT resident focused. Period. How do people not see this?

And I have YET to meet an Old Town resident who doesn't want people to come to our neck of the woods. And woops, is funding a free trolley to help people get around via public transportation suddenly a bad thing? Our bad. Let's cut that out so the ONLY way to get to Old Town is by car. Works SO WELL in Georgetown.

And just so I can clear it up: it's cool and encouraged to kvetch on this blog about the impact on quality of life when tour buses choke up the National Mall, one of the largest tourist attractions on the Eastern Seaboard, which is a very healthy distance from anything resembling a residential neighborhood. We can kvetch about this to the point of suggesting building a massive parking lot underneath the National Mall, right? But when actual people who actually reside in an actual residential area complain about tour buses choking up their neighborhoods, we can make fun of them and imply they're NIMBY backwards thinkers? Cool. Only if they're rich though, right? Or we assume they're rich based of an address?

by Catherine on Nov 22, 2011 4:23 pm  

@spookiness: there was really only a small handful of Old Town residents that were against Capital Bikeshare. The city as a whole, especially those in Del Ray, were very supportive.

@catherine: for starters, let me make clear that I agree with you on the hotel issue. And while there's a drastic need for additional housing in the city, I'm not so sure that adding apartment buildings to the Waterfront plan is going to work. The buildings themselves would likely be wildly successful...the problem is, given the Harris Teeter development fight as an example, I'm not sure the local residents would allow it. And using the Transit Corridor meetings as an example, I suspect residents would also fight those apartment buildings on the grounds of increased traffic and "an even bigger parking mess". I hope I'm proved wrong, but I don't see any encouraging signs at the moment.

by Froggie on Nov 23, 2011 7:55 am