Links
Breakfast links: NPS is naughty and nice
Photo by TrailVoice on Flickr.
Plan improves Rock Creek trails: An NPS proposal would widen the Rock Creek trail in most areas (though not all) to 10 feet, and add a pedestrian bridge to a narrow section. (TheWashCycle) 
Norton wants peace between pedicabs & NPS: After a pedicab operator was arrested for allegedly assaulting a Park Police officer, Del. Norton called for NPS to meet with pedicab drivers. She notes that most citations against the operators have been thrown out. (DCist)
DC buys 2 more streetcars: DC has agreed to buy two streetcars from the Portland firm United Streetcar LLC for $8.7 million. The firm beat out Inekon, who made the city's first 3. (WBJ) ... Why are they so expensive? And who's this company? (City Paper, Forbes)
MD, VA forgo millions in gas tax: By not pegging the gas tax to inflation, Maryland and Virginia have lost out on hundreds of millions of dollars each since each state last raised its gas tax. (Washington Times)
Big box development coming to NE DC: Costco will anchor a 42-acre big-box development in Northaest DC near New York Ave—with $17 million in tax increment financing subsidies from the District. As you might expect, the development will be car-dependent, with 2,500 parking spots. (DCist, Gavin)
NTSB calls for cellphone ban: The National Transportation Safety Board recommended a complete ban on cellphone use while driving, including hands-free devices. They know it'd be unpopular, but say it's needed for safety. (NY Times, Ben Ross)
Food trucks activate vacant storefronts: A new program lets food trucks set up at a vacant brick and mortar location for a week. The location this week is in Georgetown, but organizers are looking toward other neighborhoods as well. (WAMU)
Build down instead of up?: In a new urban planning effort to "eat every part of the animal," planners are considering the idea of retrofitting old, unused underground spaces for parks and recreation, including the Dupont tunnels. (Salon, Brian C.)
Pedestrian bridges fail in India: Mumbai and other Indian cities find most pedestrians won't use "skywalks," but that doesn't stop them getting built, including one that is the equivalent of walking up a 6-story building. (The Hindu, Ben Ross)
Have a tip for the links? Submit it here.
 | Steven Yates grew up in Indiana before moving to DC in 2002 to attend college at American University. He currently lives in Southwest DC.   |
Comments
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I guess some use is better than none, but just barely. I live in Eckington, and the big-box Home Depot Development up the street on Rhode Island is one of the worst things that's happened to this community. It cuts us off and contributes to traffic congestion. It's not pedestrian or transit friendly (despite being right next to a transit line -- it still takes 10 minutes to walk to Giant from the Red Line).
Let's see more models like NoMa. The Harris Teeter there is actual urban and accessible and doesn't entirely disrupt the flow of people and good across the city.
by Elle on Dec 15, 2011 8:24 am • link • report
I still have scars on the knuckles of my left hand where I sideswiped another biker, near the Zoo, over three decades ago.
by Frank IBC on Dec 15, 2011 8:37 am • link • report
by Chris Slatt on Dec 15, 2011 8:40 am • link • report
by Jazzy on Dec 15, 2011 8:40 am • link • report
by Canaan on Dec 15, 2011 8:49 am • link • report
Given that Costco sells most items in bulk and to retailers then it would make sense that it's car-dependent with a large parking lot.
@Elle,
I live in Eckington, and the big-box Home Depot Development up the street on Rhode Island is one of the worst things that's happened to this community.
Do think it was a poor location for a Home Depot or are you opposed to having a Home Depot in DC in general?
by Fitz on Dec 15, 2011 8:49 am • link • report
In terms of the gas tax, an unholy alliance of smart growthers and Gov. McDonnel. I doubt you need to index the tax to inflation, but a small and steady increase could easily be tolerated. 5 to 10 cents is not noticable to the consumer.
It's particuarly criminal given how low the tax is in the rest of Virginia.
by charlie on Dec 15, 2011 8:56 am • link • report
Also, nice to see the traditional Breakfast links return!
by DCster on Dec 15, 2011 9:15 am • link • report
Great picture with the skywalk article. I fell like most places I see them in the US it's in places where there is no access to get across any other way (the sides are elevated, or the rode is fenced off), or it's something no sane person would want to cross (i.e. a highway). I wonder if more people would use a tunnel that included shopping options? I saw those all over Kyiv and they seemed very popular.
by Joe on Dec 15, 2011 9:19 am • link • report
by selxic on Dec 15, 2011 9:35 am • link • report
by Lydia DePillis on Dec 15, 2011 9:37 am • link • report
This is just the retail site. Part of the Fort Lincoln development (which they've already started on) is 334 new townhouses and condos.
by freely on Dec 15, 2011 9:38 am • link • report
And the argument that "well, it's better than the empty warehouses that are there now" is less than compelling: the economic growth of the city over the next 2-3 decades is going to come because we provide walkable, livable spaces where people want to live. Not because we shave 10 minutes off the amount of time it takes for city-dwellers to get to the Pentagon City CostCo.
In allowing this kind of development, we're committing to it for the long-run. Which means we're forgoing the possibility of the kind of mixed-use development we've seen around the Navy Yard, or beginning to see along Bladensburg Road.
Very short-sighted.
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 9:40 am • link • report
Let's hope NPS also eliminates some of the blind spots and puts in emergency call boxes. There have been simply too many attacks on the trail over the years.
by Crickey7 on Dec 15, 2011 9:49 am • link • report
He's done an excellent job for his first time. Good work, Steven.
Thanks!
by Matt Johnson on Dec 15, 2011 9:52 am • link • report
*just to show you that we aren't all transit-haters
by Ser Amantio di Nicolao on Dec 15, 2011 9:55 am • link • report
by Canaan on Dec 15, 2011 10:09 am • link • report
This land has been undeveloped forever. It is currently unused land that last had something built on it during hte Civil War and has seen development plans come and go for literally 40 years. If there was a "better" use that made fiscal sense, it would have been done by now. Would you prefer to keep the status quo for another 40 years in the "hopes" something better comes along?
The mixed use development you mention is all located around transit, of which there is none in Ft. Lincoln and none on even the most optimistic persons radar. "Mixed use" makes zero sense in this location.
As we all know, DC loses (the Mayors office says 1 billion a year) enormous retail dollars to VA and MD. It seems to offend your sensibilities but yes, people do "gasp" like shopping at places like Costco and Target/Walmart and tens of thousands of DC residents leave DC to shop at these places every month. Not only do stores like these stop that "leakage" but gives DC the opportunity to attract taxable retail dollars from outside.
by freely on Dec 15, 2011 10:09 am • link • report
@Elle: +1,000
by John Marzabadi on Dec 15, 2011 10:20 am • link • report
This development runs counter to what is happening on the other side of the MD border. While many are just beginning to think of what Bladensburg Rd. could be, there is a lot of ongoing development along Rhode Island Ave in Hyattsville, Riverdale, College Park and Mt. Rainier. Within DC, Friends of RIA have begun to push for redevelopment of small businesses along that corridor.
If I was a DC resident I'd have 17 million reasons to oppose this.
by thump on Dec 15, 2011 10:30 am • link • report
As of 2007, we could've been talking about the H Street corridor that had "seen development plans come and go for literally 40 years. If there was a 'better' use that made fiscal sense, it would have been done by now."
Too bad we didn't build out a bunch of suburban-style big-box development.
Would you prefer to keep the status quo for another 40 years in the "hopes" something better comes along?
I think the one thing you and I can probably both agree on is that the pressures that lead to growth in the city are different than they have been in more than half a century. The decision isn't between urban-destroying big-box development and vacant land.
It's between urban development in an urban environment, or allocating increasingly scarce urban resources to create a poor facsimile of the worst of suburbia.
And, BTW, I like CostCo. Shop there regularly. Same with Trader Joes. And REI. But whatever the losses that DC hopes to capture from residents who go outside the city to shop in big-box stores, those losses are dwarfed by the diminished income tax that we lose by displacing residences with this stuff. It's about the long-game. And with regional population growth predicted to skyrocket over the next decade or two, *that* is what we should be concetrating on.
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 10:34 am • link • report
by Doug on Dec 15, 2011 10:34 am • link • report
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 10:36 am • link • report
by charlie on Dec 15, 2011 10:38 am • link • report
@Fritz, I wondered the same thing about Elle's post.
Elle, the area around the greyhound station is not the same as that in Eckington even before the Home Depot was built. Eckington is more residential than the NY-Ave metro area. Are you really complaining about having to walk 10-minutes to the metro? The Giant came after Home Depot.
If you don't mind answering, how long have you been in Eckington?
by HogWash on Dec 15, 2011 10:39 am • link • report
Me, for one. I often drive to Costco in Pentagon City for bulk purchases. I would welcome an alternative within DC.
Brave the Saturday afternoon crowds and count the number of DC plates in that parking lot; you will see a lot of them.
Likewise with the RI Ave Giant/Home Depot, which I grant is not a good pedestrian design. However there are very few retail lumberyards within the district. DC needs more places to buy lumber and other construction materials, and buying such things is inherently auto-centric. Not everything should be walkable.
by goldfish on Dec 15, 2011 10:43 am • link • report
I would suggest that the area where the Pentagon City Costco is is ripe for high density redevelopment - I don't know fort lincoln well, but i would suggest at least as ripe as Ft lincoln. Also, big box is NOT forever - look at Pentagon Yards, where the big boxes served as placeholder/revenue generator till the area was ripe.
Im also not sure where "suburban" fits into your urban/exurban distinction.
@doug - I often forget my cell phone. And sometimes I have it, but its out of power. Of course Im too old to count.
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 10:49 am • link • report
Having a Home Depot is fine, as is that location. In that particular development, the design and layout of the stores, parking, pedestrian access, and traffic flow are what sucks.
As far as I can tell, they used the fact that Ivy City was already a car-dependent industrial hellscape to excuse a really crappy design that happened to be an improvement over what was there previously (ie. nothing).
As far as I can tell, the developer could have just as easily built the Giant to face Rhode Island Ave and the Metro, while putting parking out back, below the store, or on the roof without adding any cost to the project.
Even if we accept that the project wouldn't be a multi-use TOD, the developer could at least have tried to integrate the retail properties into the surrounding community. Instead, the stores face away from the Metro. The complex presents a huge retaining wall to the streets. The supermarket is the furthest store in the complex from nearby housing and the Metro. And, even at that, they didn't provide any sort of direct route to walk into the complex from the Metro station.
Even if you're a motorist, I think you'll agree that the layout of the parking lot sucks.
Even if we accept that big-box retail and a suburban-style shopping strip were a foregone conclusion for that site, they could have done a much better job with the design without spending any more money.
by andrew on Dec 15, 2011 10:51 am • link • report
I was gonna say that BUT - Home Depot is known for their by the hour truck rentals. Mostly for folks whose autos wont accommodate very large items - but that could work as well for someone who did not own a car - walk to HD, rent a truck, return it, walk home. So at least some reason for walking access.
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 10:52 am • link • report
I have no problem with any store, but with the layout and design. Home Depot has done a good job in other places of adapting to an urban environment, but they didn't do it in this one.
Generally speaking, however, local employers are more economically empowering for the community and employees, so there's that. (Basically, dollars do a better job staying in the community. Which is what DC needs.)
@ Freely -- that doesn't mean it's well-designed, and including housing on giant parking lots like that is, well, disgusting. (To be technical. ;) )
@ HogWash -- it's they style of deveopment: parking + superblocks. It's not urban and impedes the development of an urban social fabric developing. Sure, it's not there now, but why prevent one?? Especially when we could have incredible density of housing and retail that would be better in the long term for building a community.
It doesn't matter how long I've been in Eckington (7 years), the fact remains that the Home Depot development effectively cuts the neighborhood off to the east. And, yes, 10 minutes is not a bad walk, but it is in this context considering it should be less than 5 considering the proximity. Not to mention it involves traipsing across a giant parking lot.
by Elle on Dec 15, 2011 10:53 am • link • report
More than you obviously imagine. I live in GT, the Pentagon City Costco being the closest one but I stopped goig there years ago because it is swamped 24/7 and youhave to circle the parking lot for 15 minutes for a spot to open.
Everyone I know and all my employees whether they live in DC, MD or VA shop at Costco and this one splits the differnece between the beltsville and landover location.
Considering its right off rt 50 that sees 100K vehicles a day, "most" being MD commuters, I would venture to say this development will get a lot of use.
And it is obvious you really have never been to Ft. Lincoln. Other than the stray bus line there is no transit and the entire area is sf detached housing where everyone has a car in the driveway.
@Oboe,
Comparing FT Lincoln to H street is comparing oranges to paperclips. H Street has been developed for a century, burned down and developed again. It already had access to multiphased transit options and was already a business district.
Ft Lincoln? Hundreds of acres of empty land, surrounded by thousands of acres of warehouses and neighborhoods of detached housing stock. It is as urban as Centerville VA.
And who exactly is DC displacing "with this stuff"? Part of this development includes ~350 housing units. This is on top of the 220 townhouses built there 7 years ago and that were sucked up without delay. Or are you saying the hipsters whose delicate sensibilities are offended by plebian options like "costco" will move out of the city because it became too "square" for their hipness? I mean really...does Pentagon City lose "potential" residents because there is a costco there?
At 400K sq/ft, when developed will on the super low end be producing ~60 million a year in retail sales. DC will collect 4-6 million a year in sales tax (on the extremely low conservative end), and millions more in the increased value of the land via property tax. DC gets its investment back in 2-3 years...max.
DC gets hundreds of new residents, a few hundred new jobs of the kind DC desperately needs for its large population of generally unemployable, tens of millions a year in taxable retail sales that used to go to the burbs all by developing land that has been unused for 150 years.
A win-win for everyone.
by freely on Dec 15, 2011 11:01 am • link • report
What is the rationale to support the notion that DC "needs" autocentric development? What exactly does the city gain from locating an autocentric lumber yard in the immediate vicinity of some of the most tightly packed neighborhoods of any city in the country? What is the economic, political, or cultural advantage to such a plan?
The thing is that an autocentric development does not exist in a vacuum. It requires the support of autocentric infrastructure, namely, roads. Constructing and operating the infrastructure and the vehicles that use it comes at very high costs to both the individual and the public. Because the automobile and the infrastructure that supports it is highly uneconomic in cities that support high population density, the automobile should be used as a secondary mode of travel in the densely populated city. Attempting to locate things like lumber yards in the middle of a densely populated city elevates the automobile to a primary mode of travel, which is uneconomic and disadvantageous from a cultural and political standpoint.
I think we can all recognize that lumber yards need to exist somewhere, but just not in the middle of a densely populated city. Whether a Costco needs to exist anywhere is a conversation for another day.
by Scoot on Dec 15, 2011 11:17 am • link • report
Can you honestly tell me that you think the gov running miles of copper wire through the forest with call boxes every few hundred yards is the best solution to your "I don't feel like carrying my cell phone problem"? Give me break man.
by Doug on Dec 15, 2011 11:18 am • link • report
Actually, Ft. Lincoln is probably as car-centric as anywhere in the District apart from the Palisades and Foxhall. There's only a couple of apartment buildings - the on Bladensburg by DC Brau and the one over by Goodwill and the rest of the neighborhood is modest density townhouse-style homes and apartments with ample parking. The newer townhouses have private driveways and many have garages. A while back (before Lanier moved there), it was practically the car theft capital of the city.
That said, I'm sure you're right that people would like to walk to the grocery store -- but would they rather buy in bulk at Costco prices?
by Arl Fan on Dec 15, 2011 11:21 am • link • report
What's the first thing a bad guy takes?
by Crickey7 on Dec 15, 2011 11:21 am • link • report
While it's true that it's the furtherst store from the metro, it's still a 10-minute walk. It is not true however that it's the furthest from nearby housing. Are you familiar at all with the area? I assume you mean nearby housing north and west of Home Depot?
I'm not sure how they would have added a direct route from Giant that didn't cut directly into the MUD planned for RI Ave's former parking lot.
@Elle, I asked how long you've been there because you compared two areas that are totally different in their development and density. It was a question of familiarity which is why is was relevant.
I still don't get why you think it should be 5min away. Harris Teeter in Pentagon Row is about 15min away from the station and you must cut through the mall to get there.
by HogWash on Dec 15, 2011 11:22 am • link • report
by goldfish on Dec 15, 2011 11:23 am • link • report
The areas are different, but could both benefit from increased urbanization -- that is my main and consistent point. Large box/parking developments (like Home Depot) have a tendency to cut off urban patterns of movement and access and don't, in the long or short term, create vibrant communities. This will inhibit any further development near the Costco site and keep it from ever achieving an urban density or developing a strong urban community.
It's not that I'm averse to walking 10 minutes -- it's that based on the distance, in normal city-style blocks, Giant should be 5 minutes or less from the metro stop. But it is not, due to the way the project was planned and laid out. Even WITH the current lay out, it could be much shorter, but they have blocked off several potential pedestrian access points with retaining walls and fencing.
Pentagon Row is a suburb, and therefore outside the scope of my care. (Now there is a place that is totally different from either of these other sites. Not to mention, cutting through a mall, much as I shudder at indoor malls, is not nearly as bad a design feature as having to walk across a giant, mostly empty, parking lot. Again, it's not the time itself, but that the length of time is indicative of the terrible planning.)
by Elle on Dec 15, 2011 11:30 am • link • report
According to Google maps, Ft Lincoln is exactly 5.2 miles from the US Capitol. I think what you're intending to argue is that it's "undeveloped". Not that it's "rural". Since we're arguing about which course development should take place, I would've thought that was obvious.
Or are you saying the hipsters whose delicate sensibilities are offended by plebian options like "costco" will move out of the city because it became too "square" for their hipness?
Your ability to grasp the exact thrust of my argument is uncanny. It's all about giving "hipsters" an authentic "experience."
I mean really...does Pentagon City lose "potential" residents because there is a costco there?
Yup. But that's not my concern because a) I'm not a Virginia resident; and even if I were I'd be less concerned because b) Pentagon City's fiscal solvency isn't contingent on maximizing the number of Pentagon City residents. DC's is.
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 11:34 am • link • report
Large box/parking developments (like Home Depot) have a tendency to cut off urban patterns of movement and access and don't, in the long or short term, create vibrant communities. This will inhibit any further development near the Costco site and keep it from ever achieving an urban density or developing a strong urban community.
And because of DC's unique fiscal position (large swaths of untaxable land, no tax reciprocity, etc...), cultivating density and maximizing the number of residents (and human-scale retail) should trump all else.
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 11:41 am • link • report
Having a Home Depot is fine, as is that location. In that particular development, the design and layout of the stores, parking, pedestrian access, and traffic flow are what sucks.
@Elle,
I have no problem with any store, but with the layout and design. Home Depot has done a good job in other places of adapting to an urban environment, but they didn't do it in this one.
I've never been to that Home Depot, so I can understand why you'd be critical of it.
@Elle,
Generally speaking, however, local employers are more economically empowering for the community and employees, so there's that. (Basically, dollars do a better job staying in the community. Which is what DC needs.)
While that may be true I don't think that local employers-even taken together as a group-are a suitable alternative for places like Home Depot and Lowes. Don't forget that a large number of customers at Home Depot are contractors, and a one-stop store with a large selection of goods at mostly reasonable prices are invaluable to them and the contractor's customers.
Speaking for myself I've shopped at local stores like Strosnider's in Bethesda but many times they haven't had the materials or the selection that I'd normally see at Home Depot in Rockville.
by Fitz on Dec 15, 2011 11:44 am • link • report
Anyway, I don't see how a stationary call box would be immune to being vandalized and disabled by this same band of roving thieves that is lying in wait on the trail to ambush you.
If your cell phone does get taken though I'm sure someone else will be along shortly and you can use theirs. Maybe you'll be that person, either way I'd recommend having a cell phone.
by Doug on Dec 15, 2011 11:44 am • link • report
One last thing, and I'm sure this won't make me many friends, but...the best thing we can do for low-skill workers is to improve our transit connections with the suburbs (where there are more low-skill jobs), and to further encourage the de-concentration of poverty in the city itself (via more generous housing vouchers, etc...)
The idea that we can address DC's appalling poverty rate by building a few hyper-sized retail developments (at maybe a hundred part-time jobs per) inside the city limits makes no sense.
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 11:55 am • link • report
Zip code 20018, which includes Brentwood, Langdon, Ft Lincoln etc, has a population of about 22,000 (and growing), in a land area of 3.1 square miles, for a population density of around 7,100 people/square mile. Roughly the same population density as Arlington, VA.
People actually want high density development in this area. Developers want it because it means higher revenues. And the government wants it because it means more tax dollars. That's why there is a new 275 unit development with 70,000 square feet of ground floor retail next to the RIA metro station. Quite frankly people are tired of living in a neighborhood that is surrounded by a large postal facility, rail yard, trash transfer station, and parking lots. Pretty much all signs point to this type of development being phased out in the long-term. But, by all means, keep fighting for lumber yards and Costco.
by Scoot on Dec 15, 2011 11:56 am • link • report
by Alex B. on Dec 15, 2011 11:57 am • link • report
I'd suspect most modern call boxes use some sort of cellular/wireless technology, although getting power might be a problem. Not to mention the infmaous dead spots in Rock Creek Park....
by charlie on Dec 15, 2011 12:00 pm • link • report
solar?
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 12:02 pm • link • report
I love taking a pleasant walk around the block and picking up fresh produce for a meal just before I prepare it. I can do that every day. Costco kills that lifestyle by putting a parking lot between me and my food and making me go once a week with a dumptruck, maneuvering around other people and their dumptrucks filled with mega-sized groceries.
by Ward 1 Guy on Dec 15, 2011 12:04 pm • link • report
You hit it. In the long run, it will be an "interim use" like Potomac Yard is/was. The Costco in Pentagon City probably won't be around in 5-10 years either. In some ways, the big box retail may in the long run a good thing. If the market can't support higher density mixed use development now, then this at becomes a placeholder so that something might emerge in 20-30 years. Otherwise, it could get chopped up into a million dinky little parcels and filled in with mediocre townhouses or apartments that prevent higher quality development in the future.
(Elle)"Pentagon Row is a suburb, and therefore outside the scope of my care." You don't get out much. Despite that you may not like it, its a lot more urban than many places inside the district.
by spookiness on Dec 15, 2011 12:06 pm • link • report
by Ward 1 Guy on Dec 15, 2011 12:08 pm • link • report
Nice try...that is much larger area than Brentwood, and it does not include the rail yards.
Light industrial areas such as where the Home Depot is in Brentwood, are like the utility/boiler room of your house. It is not as nice as your parlor, but it is better to have heat! All cities need places like this, to provide the necessary services. You want the benefits of city living, you have to pay the costs: that trash transfer needs to be somewhere. You want a nice passenger rail station? -- you will need the yards for maintenance and switching. Contractors already drive many miles to get their supplies; the lack of choice drive up the price we all pay to get things done here in the city.
This kind of reminds me of the rich Hampton resident that yelled at a plumber to come and unstop his toilet. Plumber: "there is only one other guy in town that will do this, and he is more booked up than me. If you want me to do this, be nice because otherwise I won't get to it until next week." The plumber won the argument.
by goldfish on Dec 15, 2011 12:15 pm • link • report
by Doug on Dec 15, 2011 12:17 pm • link • report
That's really not true. As far as inventory, Costco is somehwat like a car dealership. You have options. If you want to buy the Chevy aveo, you can. If you want to buy the Tahoe XL (of course my preferred), you can do that too. Costco isn't designed nor do I believe has ever been considered a reasonable alternative to your local supermarket. It's not a store you go to weekly. That's the point of having the ability to buy items in bulk.
I think most people love going to their local markets.
by HogWash on Dec 15, 2011 12:30 pm • link • report
I was being a bit facetious there, I'm sorry it didn't come through, and to have hit a nerve. Pentagon Row is the worst form of urbanism in my opinion. I've been out that way many times, and there is something incredibly false-feeling about it. Blocks are still large, there is not much store frontage (it's all in a mall). Sure it's accessible on transit, and that's great! But there's not much housing and in general it feels sterile and cold (despite the warmly-dyed concrete and brick).
But, some people like that. Or at least don't mind it. I think of it as suburbanized urbanism -- still too much dedicated parking and too little consideration for creating an actual community and planning on a pedestrian scale. I would never live there, but, recognizing that some find it appealing decide to "not care" in order to save my urban-dwelling and loving blood pressure.
by Elle on Dec 15, 2011 12:30 pm • link • report
The costs are higher for some things; lower for others. Perhaps the benefits of the added residents makes up for outsourcing certain services. Use the land for its highest possible value.
City residents need to dispose of our trash. Where should we site DC's giant landfill? People's cars get old and die. Where should we site DC's massive auto graveyard?
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 12:33 pm • link • report
Would it be possible for the large parking lot to be re-done in the future? For example, could they construct buildings in the middle, underground the parking (like at Container Store/Best Buy in NW or Columbia Hts Target), and insert 'streets' along the storefronts to create a denser area? Seems like a possibility as they did just add a bank in one part of the parking lot.
by Rob P. III on Dec 15, 2011 12:39 pm • link • report
by goldfish on Dec 15, 2011 12:40 pm • link • report
My guess is that its days are numbered. In fact, my guess are that its days are numbered until the opening of the DC costco. (Not to say that it will close for good, but that Costco stand to gain from redeveloping the Pentagon City store)
by andrew on Dec 15, 2011 12:50 pm • link • report
A couple of years ago, I tore down and rebuilt the balcony off the back of our house. So of course, I went to Home Depot in Brentwood. After all, that was the only place in the city to buy building materials, right?
So looking in the lumber aisle of HD, I found a bunch of warped, wet hacked-up looking pressure-treated 1x7s, none of which were usable. I took what they had home, but realized I'd forgotten some hardware, so I stopped by Frager's.
While I was talking with the hardware guy, I mentioned how bad the wood was at HD, and he said, "Oh? We've got pressure treated 1x7s..."
Took me back to the rear of the garden center, and they had pristine, laser-straight boards. When the clerk helped me bring them to the counter and rang them up, I found out they were a bit less expensive than the ones at HD.
I think Frager's is definitely more expensive that HD on whole, but I'm not sure the difference is that stark overall. And for that premium, I'm actually funding jobs for my neighbors.
by oboe on Dec 15, 2011 12:53 pm • link • report
While one could argue the value of a big-box bulk store in an urban area of increasing density and reducing car mode share, I'll at least say that a bulk store does tend to be a bit more conducive toward cars... not to say one can't walk/bike in for a select assortment of small goods or that they can't haul back a 20-pack of mayo without a car; but by-and-large I'd say a bulk store would indeed necessitate a greater parking supply.
by Bossi on Dec 15, 2011 12:59 pm • link • report
by goldfish on Dec 15, 2011 12:59 pm • link • report
by Neil Flanagan on Dec 15, 2011 1:02 pm • link • report
I dont know what you mean by its in a mall. its across the street from the mall - its a seperate development - some of the retail is on the street, some on a courtyard - but none is indoors - unless you are confusing it with the older developments nearby (note, costco is NOT in the Pentagon row development its in an older development nearby)And there is housing right on top of Pentagon Row, and newer hi rises nearby. Of course its far from all built out yet.
The super blocks are inherited from a different era, and Arlington did NOT choose to retrofit the street grid. So it is what it is. and yes there is dedicated parking - lots of people who dont live the area, and dont have good transit access shop there. Its an area that accommodates the auto while ALSO giving choices (transit, walking, and now CaBi) to do without an auto.
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 1:06 pm • link • report
Light industrial areas such as where the Home Depot is in Brentwood, are like the utility/boiler room of your house. It is not as nice as your parlor, but it is better to have heat! All cities need places like this, to provide the necessary services.
It's all about design, goldfish. Northeast is the city's dumping ground for poorly designed infrastructure, services and retail options.
A couple years ago Blumenfield Development Group opened East River Plaza, a 500,000 square foot development in East Harlem with 1250 parking spaces, anchored by Target, Costco and Marshalls (sound familiar?). The design of the site allows it to sit on only 6 acres adjacent to a neighborhood with a population density of 44,000 residents/sq mile. The vertical configuration allows the site to provide more retail square footage than the Ft Lincoln development, in 1/7th the land area, and without significantly disrupting the flow of pedestrian or auto traffic, and with providing the neighborhood with "needed" amenities. The garage charges a parking fee of $4/hour instead of being free, as the Ft Lincoln center will be. This encourages people only to drive to the shopping center if they need to, not because it's easiest to do so.
Ever since the industrial revolution, cities have managed to design efficient and compact infrastructure services that have a minimal impact on sociocultural development on the urban landscape. DC is a city that can't really afford to fail at designing proper infrastructure services, yet manages to be quite adept at it.
Also, it should be noted that since we're talking about Brentwood and Fort Lincoln, it would be prudent to include the population of Fort Lincoln and the neighborhoods surrounding the two developments.
by Scoot on Dec 15, 2011 1:07 pm • link • report
@Ward1, Great, good for you. I think it is great that you like living the urban lifestyle, but not everyone can, or wants to live in a 700 sq/ft apt/condo that costs a fortune, so they can walk to work, or so they can walk down the street to the Yes Organic Market and spend 40 bucks on a days worth of groceries.
Some people like their cars, like homes larger than 700 sq/ft, don't like living on a street lined with bars, like being able to buy a weeks worth of groceries for that same 40 bucks. That doesn't make them savages to be pitied and you guys really need to get off your high horses if you think so. You don't like Costco? Thats fine, don't shop there, problem solved.
And lastly, how many trees were cut down for your home to be built? The land is going to be completely cleared whether they build this, or your preferred version.
@Oboe,
You seem to think DC suffers from a lack of housing stock? There are enormous swaths of low density residential near existing transit in NE and SE far closer to the city core and with far greater population density than exists in Ft. Lincoln. DC would be better served addressing the opportunities that already exist there, then trying to shoehorn your utopia in a an already low density car centric neighborhood with zero transit options whose demographic won't support the expensive development you pine for.
In general:
Development doesn't pay for itself. Why hasn't someone turned this empty land in FT Lincoln into a new Clarendon already? Because the market isn't there for it. Developers prefer making more money than less and if they thought your wish of a new "columbia Heights" would work, they would certinly build it. They've certainly had the time. But it doesn't support it. Maybe in 30-40 years when the nearby demo can support it, but not now.
by freely on Dec 15, 2011 1:18 pm • link • report
I live in Mt. Rainier so I go by Ft. Lincoln quite often. The only detached SF housing I know of is on the other side of SD Ave and Bladensburg. Ft. Lincoln itself is all apartments and townhomes.
by thump on Dec 15, 2011 1:21 pm • link • report
LOL, you're right! It's paid for by our tax dollars. Developers chose the Ft Lincoln site specifically because the surrounding area provided the autocentric infrastructure that the site would depend on for its success. However, the city (i.e. you and me and all the other taxpayers) provided over $13 million in incentives, plus another $3 million to rebuild city owned stormwater management infrastructure to specifically tailor to the site design. So now do you want to talk about "the market"? Because it seems here like there are a number of other forces regulating the so-called market. It begs the question of how attractive this type of site would be without the city begging for the attention of developers, like a dog nips at the feet of its master, or how the site might have been designed differently had the city prioritized a less suburbanized project.
by Scoot on Dec 15, 2011 1:39 pm • link • report
crux of it. As we have seen with potomac yds (not pentagon yds, sorry) in Alex, its possible to build big box as a placeholder/revenue generator, and then redevelop when the market ripens. Pot Yds big boxes opened in 1997, and we are NOW looking at redevelopment in the next 5 years or so,and that seems to have been an economically feasible solution. so about 20 years life for the big boxes.
Some folks here, like Oboe, or so bullish on urban living in general, and the district in particular, that they seem to think someplace 5 miles from the center, even if currently lacking good transit, will be ripe for redevelopment very soon - 10 years or less? Others, I think, expect redevelopment to be at least 20 years away.
If high density residential/multiuse is coming in less than 10 years, well building big boxes there is probably a bad idea. If its going to be more than 20 years, its probably a fine idea.
What goes into that is a range of judgements on latent demand for high density walkable, the ability of the inner and middle suburban jurisdictions to deliver at least some high density walkable, the future of crime, society, and govt in DC, the future of the Districts major employers, the imminent or not so imminent "collapse" of the weaker suburban jurisdictions, etc, etc.
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 1:46 pm • link • report
In the 1960s. You're not seriously suggesting a Clarendon would have been built there then, if only urban policy were smarter?
Anyway, thats water under the bridge. The question is not how the market might have developed it in 1965 - its whats possible in 2011 - in 2015 - and in 2030
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 1:50 pm • link • report
You must not know what TIF is, which is where the 13 million is coming from.
The 3 million for the stormwater improvements has already been done and was needed to facilitate the 220 new townhouses that are already there and the ~350 more currently being built. Surely you don't think a 3 million investment that produced a minimum of 570 new homes (and an extra ~million bucks a year in property tax revenue) was a bad deal?
However, it wouldn't matter if the money was coming from Tax Increment Finanancing or just a lump sum gift (like the 45 million the city gave to redevelop Columbia Heights)
As I said above, the
At 400K sq/ft, when developed will on the super low end be producing ~60 million a year in retail sales (at revenue of $150 per sq/ft). DC will collect 4-6 million a year in sales tax (on the extremely low conservative end), and millions more in the increased value of the land via property tax. DC gets its "investment" back in 2-3 years...max. Considering I was using conservative revenue numbers that are literally half reality, I wouldn't be suprised if the city got its money back in less than a year after this was done.
Pick your favorite development project in the area and there will be public money involved. The only differentiating factor is how long it takes for the tax payers to make their money back.
by freely on Dec 15, 2011 1:58 pm • link • report
by GGW Neighbor on Dec 15, 2011 2:22 pm • link • report
Importantly, DCUSA played a significant role in revitalizing the surrounding neighborhood, including east and west of the 14th st corridor, in part for the reason that it works within the urban space instead of stubbornly working against it in attempt to draw throngs drivers from the Montgomery County ether. The city government has the responsibility to play a role that extends beyond recovering its investment as quickly as possible. It should help to provide intrinsic and extrinsic benefits for its citizens. The Dakota Crossing site is just lazy design, and the city is encouraging it. Time will tell how it pays off.
Although I agree with what's been said here so far that sometimes development needs to happen in incremental steps like this.
by Scoot on Dec 15, 2011 2:26 pm • link • report
Also, it should be noted that since we're talking about Brentwood and Fort Lincoln, it would be prudent to include the population of Fort Lincoln and the neighborhoods surrounding the two developments.
The density in Ft. Lincoln is not comparable with anywhere in Manhattan, even way up in Fort George. You should compare the design to developments in neighborhoods of similar density and with similar transportation infrastructure. I think the proposals for Potomac Yard are apt.
by goldfish on Dec 15, 2011 2:26 pm • link • report
And the problem, like the problem with putting car-dependent development up, even if we think that's the best use it will get *NOW*, is that the Home Depot ain't going nowhere, and it ain't gonna get reformatted. It would be lovely if they could at least bury the parking or create a greenway for pedestrians through the middle of the parking lot or SOMETHING to make it marginally more urban, but I don't see it happening...not for many, many years. And it's a real shame, because the RIA Metro is convenient to downtown and there's really a wealth of residential options in the neighborhood that would serve the middle-class of DC very well. It COULD be like NoMa. Redevelop the Safeway and Giant plazas and the areas immediately surrounding the Metro on RIA and the Giant plaza on Brentwood Road (like the old DMV plaza) into mixed use TOD, and the existing residential around it looks a whole lot like NoMa, actually - in fact, the RIA Metro area may have MORE space to develop large TOD than NoMa did, with a similar housing stock outside of the main drags and Metro area.
Fort Lincoln may not be walkable and transit-oriented NOW, but that doesn't have to be its fate FOREVER. And big-box can be done urban. Manhattan has a Home Depot; Columbia Heights has a Target; Ft. Lincoln could have an urban-style Costco, if we tried.
by Ms. D on Dec 15, 2011 2:39 pm • link • report
by Scoot on Dec 15, 2011 2:42 pm • link • report
I cited Pot yards not as an example of good design, or of urbanist design, but as an example of using big boxes as a placeholder, transitional to later higher density TOD.
BTW, there are several big box developments in NYC (for example Bath Beach in brooklyn - and the Costco in Brooklyn) which are not at all urbanist in their layout. In the former case I think the issue is density, and in the latter case, by it being a Costco.
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 2:57 pm • link • report
A. the expected long term use, not transitional
B. A very expensive location - convenient to a metro rail station, on the waterfront, and a shorter absolute distance to the US Capitol
by AWalkerInTheCity on Dec 15, 2011 2:59 pm • link • report
The crux of the debate here is how soon can that piece of land be turned into the next H St? If it's at least 15 years away (which is probably true), then it seems to be perfectly fine to put a big box placeholder there in the meantime.
In fact, that's exactly what happened on H ST. That area was filled with auto-oriented development (see: H ST Connection) that was geared toward the tens of thousands of commuting cars coming in from MD (see: AutoZone). Now that H ST is becoming the next hipster paradise, they're tearing down all the crappy auto-oriented stores and lining the streets with restaurants/bars.
I wonder if you've been to this part of town often? It's perfectly set up for walkable, mixed-use buildings.
I've driven through that area and can't imagine why someone would think it's setup to be walkable. Here are some screen shots of the area:
33rd Pl and South Dakota:
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View Larger Map
Ft Lincoln Dr:
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Ft. Lincoln and 33rd Pl
View Larger Map
by Falls Church on Dec 15, 2011 3:00 pm • link • report
Yes! on the trying. Like I said above, it's not the stores per se (though, to be completely honest, I'd always prefer something locally owned), it's putting it in the right context.
Will there be opportunities to comment on this to zoning boards, etc before it's final approval? Etc?
by Elle on Dec 15, 2011 3:38 pm • link • report
by Gavin on Dec 15, 2011 3:57 pm • link • report
Amen to that!
@MsD, we will always be able to second guess any decision. I lived in that area for a few years and believe me, a more pressing safety concern was the fact that people walked through a opening in the fence, across the CSX tracks, just to get to the northern end of the RI pedestrian walkway.
by HogWash on Dec 15, 2011 4:52 pm • link • report
One thing that always makes me shake my head in amazement is the level of self obsessedness and ego of some folks who post here, who believe "their" lifestyle is the one we should all be striving for and that the rest of us live boorish substandard lives.
Your persecution complex is showing. If I were a paranoid person with a hefty sense of vicimization, I might argue that "others" are trying to foist "their" car-dependent lifestyle on those of us who have chosen to live in the city. Some of us don't want that or we'd move to Bailey's Crossroads. And no matter what the elitists who run this country, and who think the car-dependent way is the "only" way might say, this is "America", and our way of life is just as legitimate as theirs!
by oboe on Dec 16, 2011 9:26 am • link • report
by Steph on Dec 16, 2011 12:03 pm • link • report
by Ms. D on Dec 16, 2011 3:44 pm • link • report
2. Downtown Vancouver, B.C. has a Costco with paid underground parking, 900 condos above, and a direct connection to SkyTrain. "Other than that, it looks and feels like a regular Costco," including the throngs of pushy shoppers. That's in addition to numerous downtown supermarkets, including an H-Mart like the one in Merrifield.
Vancouver apartments are tiny and expensive even by our standards (think 2X as much per sq. ft., and about 1/3 less space), so I don't know where those people keep their bulk purchases.
by Payton on Dec 17, 2011 11:42 pm • link • report
Worthwhile Canadian initiative, eh?
by Payton on Dec 18, 2011 12:43 am • link • report
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