Comments on New residents and arts spaces could spark Ward 4's 14th St. - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by LuvDusty

Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:46:37 EDT

http://secondwindtraining.com/ is the URL for the gym mentioned above, sorry...

Comment by LuvDusty

Thu, 19 Jan 2012 14:45:08 EDT

Someone I know goes to the newly opened gym on 14th in close proximity to the area being discussed here.

Second Wind Training

I am all for businesses opening in that area that are more than just residences and re-purposing existing structures when possible.

Comment by Rebecca Mills

Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:55:25 EDT

Also of interest: a neighbor told me that WMATA has been distributing surveys to riders of the 52, 53, and 54 bus lines, which serve 14th Street. Paper surveys are being given to riders at the beginning of their trips, and many of the questions are written with the notion that the person surveyed is actually on the bus, but a Surveymonkey version can be found here: http://www.metrobus-studies.com/52-53-54/52-53-54.htm

Comment by A dude

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 23:12:02 EDT

WMATA could easily shutter this garage as soon as their new bus garage at Shepherd Parkway opens.

Shepherd is a facility designed to accommodate 250 buses and is replacing a facility that stored 110. That suggests a capacity of 140 additional buses. Second, they closed the Southeastern garage before the Shepherd Parkway facility opened up. This means that they were able to relocate 110 buses throughout there existing facilities without building another storage space - suggesting that have capacity for at least 110 buses. That means when Shepherd Parkway opens up they will have space to store 250 buses (140 at Shepherd Parkway and 110 throughout the rest of the system). They could close Northern when the Shepherd Parkway facility opens and still have space for 80 buses (250 spaces - 170 buses). They would still have have the space to close Royal St (80 spaces) and build their Cinder Bed Road facility.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/6706/bus-garage-at-walter-reed-good-for-residents-dc-budget/

They would make the argument that the deadhead would cost too much. My rebuttal - the increase in property tax, income tax, sales tax, etc would more than offset the cost of deadheading.

Point is, if Muriel Bowser is listening, force WMATA to close the garage this summer and redevelop the site.

Comment by Rich

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:46:20 EDT

What's so bad about the car barn being a car barn (or a bus barn)? It's a handsome building that has an actual function other than, say, serving overpriced mediocre food. Virtually every wishful fantasy here muscles out useful functions.

Upper 14th is doesn't have to become some new stereotypical haven to be a useful, popular place to live. Georgia Avenue which has intensive retail, such as it is a better candidate for extensive new uses of its commercial space and would be a natural for some kind of gallery district if that's what can fill the marginal retail there. Certainly after W-M kills what's left of retail there, a lot of space will come open. There have been efforts to revive parts of upper 14th, such as around Colorado. It''s too far off the radar screen and people who live not far away (Takoma or SS) are comically unable to find it. Maybe the right destination restaurant could make it happen or perhaps, the area could change enough to support a decent c-store and some simple service businesses and a decent cafe or two.

Comment by Richard Layman

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:12:20 EDT

yes, but there weren't as many as today. Out of home food purchases have skyrocketed in the last 40 years, but were miniscule back then.

At the same time with changes in retail sector and shopping behavior, typical convenience goods (food, gas, hardware, housewares) and specialty goods (like apparel) categories aren't really competitive at the scale of a neighborhood commercial district.

Neighborhood commercial districts usually reposition by selling stuff people don't need (housewares, beads, gifts, second hand items, etc.) with a couple restaurants.

Lately I have referred to places like H St. as entertainment districts rather than commercial/shopping districts.

In theatres heyday, people saw movies up to 3 times/week (4 different movies would be shown on a weekly basis at a neighborhood theater) so they frequented the districts a lot, and stores would even stay open later closer to cinema hours.

Plus, people had fewer options, and bought more stuff locally. Places like H St. or 12th St. in Brookland had Safeways at each end. Etc.

Of course, the Internet/WWW wasn't even a dream then...

It happens I am 2/3 of the way through _Downtown America_, a superb history of U.S. commercial districts in the 20th century. It's worth your checking out. It won lots of awards. It's slow reading though. A lot is packed in every sentence, and the footnotes are voluminous.

Comment by charlie

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:06:19 EDT

@Dalpert, Rlayman; thanks.

So, it wasn't a population shift that killed retail. It was a retail shift.

I doubt very much mothers in 1960 bought as much crap/junk for their kids as today. Or food. And I strongly suspect some gay dude living alone is spending more on "retail" than a mother with three kids, although what they are spending it on is very different.

Why should move theatres be anchors? Does "retail" in Rlayman's calculation include restaurants?

Comment by Richard Layman

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:58:53 EDT

David basically answers Charlie's question. In 1960, there were fewer suburban shopping destinations, and regional supermarket chains (Giant, Safeway, but then there were others) hadn't yet refocused on creating much larger stores dispersed throughout the city's commercial districts and closing smaller, neighborhood located stores. Not at that district, but as tv developed, neighborhood cinemas lost business and ceased to be as strong anchors for neighborhood commercial districts.

So as the scale of retail and people's behavior changed, the number of people needed to support retail districts changed too.

The rule of thumb I use, based on ICSC numbers, for 50,000 s.f. of retail, which is typical of a neighborhood commercial district, is 30,000 people. In _Cities in Full_ on p. 12, Belmont says you need 10,000 people within immediate walking distance. He doesn't define that but it usually means within a 1/4 or 1/2 mile radius.

Note that in 1962 (or was it 1964), Ourisman Chevrolet left H Street NE for Marlow Heights, so that is an indicator of the shift in prominence and importance of suburban locations. By then, the local department store chains had stores in Silver Spring and in various NoVA locations, and major regional shopping centers were being developed, and Giant especially began refocusing on suburban locations.

Comment by Douglas Stallworth

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:20:46 EDT

WMATA initated a priority corridor study of the Metrobus 14th Street (50s routes) Line in December 2011. On January 10th, riders were surveyed on the 52, 53 and 54 routes to obtain their comments and concerns about bus service in the corridor between the Takoma Metro Station and downtown. A public meeting to share the survey results with riders is tentatively scheduled for Tuesday, February 23rd at the Northern Bus Garage at 5:00 PM. The projected completion date of the study is July 2012.

The purpose of the study is to examine ways in which service along 14th Street can be improved. Constraints to bus operations including congestion and restricted street rights-of-way will be studied. Consideration will be given to establishing limited stop service similar to the Route S9 service on 16th Street and Route 79 service on Georgia Avenue. Ridership potential from all of the new commercial and residential projects proposed and under construction in the corridor will be considered in the analysis.

Comment by David Alpert

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:48:55 EDT

People also buy a lot less at local retailers than they did in 1960. There are big boxes and malls, and the Internet. So we need more people to sustain the same level of locally-serving retail.

A few places like Georgetown can basically be the urban form equivalent of a mall, but you can only have so many of those, and DC has been making it harder by constantly subsidizing big box retail in Ward 5 (and now the Walmart on Georgia Ave).

Families might not add income, but kids need a lot of stuff and eat a lot, so families buy a lot more food, clothes, toys and other items than a childless couple.

Comment by charlie

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:24:10 EDT

Quick question.

Population now is 16K, vs 14K in 1960.

We know that we are a lot "richer" and spend a lot more money than in 1960. We are also richer.

Also, a lot of the population decrease was families leaving. One or two kids don't add income.

The small change in population and much larger increase in wealth doesn't being to explain why retail died here.

Comment by tom veil

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:23:56 EDT

I'm with Thayer-D and Richard Layman. I live on 14th Street in the CH, and I find it much, much easier to travel south than north. Yes, you've got the Ss and 50s buses going north, but going south you have the Ss, 50s, H1, 42, 43, 64, the Circulator, and the green line! If the 4000 block of 14th is going to get as busy as the 3000 block of 14th, it needs more infrastructure.

Comment by RosRes

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:23:00 EDT

I love the idea of turning it into a DC version of Philadelphia's Redding Terminal Market!!

Comment by Matt

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:16:28 EDT

My wife and I own a house near the bus barn. I would love to see it turned into something akin to Philadelphia's Redding Terminal Market. Eastern Market on Capitol Hill is obviously tremendously successful, and a second public market - one in Northwest DC - would most likely be just as successful. Ideally it would be situated within walking distance of a Metro station, but the bus barn isn't a bad location - 52, 53 and 54 buses stop directly in front of it, and you can easily walk from 16th St. stops for the S1, S2, S4 and S9 as well as a future light rail line along Georgia Ave.

Comment by Richard Layman

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:27:05 EDT

Funny, my response is that this space should just be developed as housing and call it a day. Adding additional activity destinations in areas without fixed rail transit, given the overabundant capacity of space elsewhere such as on Georgia Avenue merely further deconcentrates desirable activity rather than concentrates it.

Comment by Thayer-D

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:08:17 EDT

Re-building the trolley line would do the trick. Have it go up 14th street and shoot diagonally onto Luzon Avenue into the Walter Read sight. Use that stop as the nucleus of the redevelopment and hook up with Georgia avenue on to downtown Silver Spring. This would avoid freaking out the Georgia Avenue car commuters for the majority of its DC stretch, and bring all these beautiful commercial strips on line again.

Comment by Steve S.

Wed, 11 Jan 2012 14:01:59 EDT

How about affordable living spaces for federal employees? Artists can live anywhere. Feds have to live here, this is the capital.