Great set of links this morning.

by Michael Perkins on Feb 3, 2012 8:13 am • link • report

Re: Red Line

Probably outrageous but at some point wouldn't it make the most sense to suck it up and widen the tunnels for a 3rd track so that we can do repairs all the live long day without any service interruption? Or is that far too much of an undertaking to be entertained?

by Campy on Feb 3, 2012 8:57 am • link • report

@Campy

It makes better financial sense to do extra work now to get the system to a place where we don't have to play catch-up on maintenance any more. A third track would cost tons of money that's better spend on redundancy in the core (separated Blue Line) so that a problem in the core doesn't muck up the entire system as much.

by MLD on Feb 3, 2012 9:04 am • link • report

That "on-time" designation--"up to 50% of the wait time during off-peak times"--is a hilarious jiggering of the stats. NYC's metric is that a train arrives at its terminal station within 5 minutes of its scheduled arrival, period.

I look forward to barely being able to use the red line on evenings and weekends for another 3 years. It's become a weekly tradition of mine.

by worthing on Feb 3, 2012 9:23 am • link • report

great news on the Silver line - looks like they may come in within budget and almost exactly on time. Fingers crossed it works out.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 3, 2012 9:26 am • link • report

Ahh, the redline line. The "red headed" step child of metro functionality.

Point 1. I said this when they were building the system, I've said this every time I've seen them replacing rail ties since. Only a extrordinary mental midget is still installing wooden ties rather than concrete. I am convinced it is a purposeful "make work" thing for themselves. No other country in the world (even Russia and china use concrete ties for all their new and rehabed train lines) uses wooden ties on a heavy rail system. Why? BECAUSE ITS WOOD!. Concrete ties last on average, 3 times longer than wooden ones. Only an organization as inept as metro is still doing this.

Point 2 Metro needs to take a page out of MPD's book and start the "all hands on deck" approach. They have the system to themselves 5 hours a day when it is closed. How in gods name can they not do regular repair and maintenance in the 20% of the week when they are closed? Because they only deem to have skeleton crews doing work on those hours. They prefer to work during the day and nothing (appreciable) gets done at night.

Point 3 - Metro needs to seriously consider (and customers begrugingly agree to) a one time week long closure, if not of the entire system, atleast an entire line.

Plan now to close the system for the week between Christmas and New Years when their ridership is non-existant anyway. If Metro took the "all hands approach" and saturated the system with their employees and contractors for 24/7 for a week, there is no reason they couldn't clear an enormous backlog of work on the rails, signaling station repair etc.

No one would really care if they announced that work now and gave people 10 months to absorb it.

But I am only dreaming

by freely on Feb 3, 2012 9:39 am • link • report

The Silver Line will have concrete ties. Not that it makes using wood in the rest of the system any less idiotic.

I loved this bit in the Examiner article, by the way. Just a reminder that all of Metro's "on time" statistics are lies:

"Trains are considered on time if they are no more than two minutes later than scheduled during peak service -- or up to 50 percent of the wait time during off-peak times. That means if riders are expecting a 15-minute wait between trains on a weekend, Metro considers the train on time if it arrives in 22 minutes."

by Phil on Feb 3, 2012 9:56 am • link • report

@freely

IIRC, the given explanation for continued use of wooden rather than concrete ties is that the type of ballast Metro uses is only compatible with wooden ties, not concrete. So if you were to make the switch, you would have to switch out the ballast as well. I have no idea how difficult or expensive that would be, but presumably it is a major obstacle.

by Dizzy on Feb 3, 2012 10:20 am • link • report

@Dizzy,

Who has given that explanation? I have never seen anything from metro indicating that.

And not that it would matter. Ballast is just fancy train talk (ahem "friction ring anyone) for the gravel base the ties sit in.

So they add more ballast every time they replace ties so all they have to do is use a different gravel which is not expensive or difficult.

by freely on Feb 3, 2012 10:26 am • link • report

@freely

http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-on-foot/2011/12/how-metro-prepares-for-the-silver-line-in-time-lapse-form--13871.html

Metro's social media manager Brian Anderson describes the West Falls Church track work video this way:

"During an Orange Line weekend shutdown in September, contractors installed new crossover switches outside of West Falls Church in preparation for the Silver Line to Dulles. This time lapse shows the work in two minutes... from removal of the existing cross-section of track, clearing land, dumping the new ballast, and installing each new piece of the switch sections. You'll notice the use of concrete ties on this portion of the new Silver Line... because this is a newly built portion of rail. Our existing rights-of-way use wooden ties and a different type of ballast, not "compatible" with concrete ties."

I know what ballast is. What I don't know is how expensive (both in material and labor) it would be to replace all the existing ballast in the system with a different type, as well as what the cost difference might be.

by Dizzy on Feb 3, 2012 10:47 am • link • report

"So they add more ballast every time they replace ties so all they have to do is use a different gravel which is not expensive or difficult."

I know this only from the RR context, not transit, but my understanding is that ballast is replaced much less frequently, at greater expense and using different equipment, than ties.

by anonexRRguy on Feb 3, 2012 10:55 am • link • report

With respect to the tie replacement issue:

I don't know anything about the ballast issue. The first I heard about it was yesterday. If there is actually some compatibility issue, then it would be extremely difficult and expensive to replace wooden ties with concrete ties.

Currently, WMATA replaces ties as necessary. Which means they don't always replace 100% of the ties in a given stretch of track. They have a machine that literally pulls a tie out from under the rails and replaces it with a new one.

That does not require removal or replacement of rails or ballast. If Metro has to remove the ballast (as they did with at K&N Junction for the Silver Line turnouts and crossover) that would mean taking a lot longer to replace the ties, and a lot more delays for customers.

According to a conversation on twitter yesterday, WMATA suggested a comprehensive program of replacing wooden ties with concrete ones would add 2 to 3 years of single-tracking.

by Matt Johnson on Feb 3, 2012 11:06 am • link • report

The key issue isn't what kind of ties Metro uses for their above-ground portions, but that they fell behind on regular maintenance and now have a severe backlog.

by Alex B. on Feb 3, 2012 11:11 am • link • report

FYI, Metro has a video on how the process for tie replacement works:

http://youtu.be/6wzlZGf4ksc

by Alex B. on Feb 3, 2012 11:18 am • link • report

@alex

My understanding has been that concrete ties are more expensive, but not to replaced less often, and so concrete is used on higher volume lines where disruption is costlier.

So I am confused.

by AnonexRRguy on Feb 3, 2012 11:29 am • link • report

I think the argument is getting into "forest for trees" argument.

1. They are replacing all the wooden ties in the system based on a life cycle of 15-20 years. When they do so, they "top up" the ballast. They don't replace it wholesale, they just add more as needed.

2. Concrete ties need to be replaced every 55-60 years.

3. Ballast (gravel) is probably the cheapest thing (track related) in their maintenance lifecycle. If they replace the ties and ballast as they go it wouldn't likely add more than a few percent to the cost (they are just putting down a different size gravel). You use the same machinery, it is compacted and installed the same way.

At the end of the day, not replacing the wood ties with concrete and tripling the ties lifespan at the same time because you don't want to spend a few more percent modifying the ballast when you replace the wood ties is lunacy.

by freely on Feb 3, 2012 11:31 am • link • report

I thought it was odd that the tax article only mentioned Arlington County in passing (to say that ArlCo also receives low amounts of state funds/resident). Was the reporter just not able to get the statistics on tax revenue generated by ArlCo?

by Gray on Feb 3, 2012 11:35 am • link • report

@AnonexRRguy

My understanding is the same re: concrete ties.

But there are several issues here. One is concrete vs wood. Another is what to use when replacing things, and yet another is the schedule for that maintenance.

If doing concrete does indeed require different ballast, then the decision to stick with wood makes perfect sense.

Concrete probably means less maintenance, but that doesn't mean maintenance-free. And the core problem here is Metro falling behind on their regular maintenance, and now trying to catch-up.

by Alex B. on Feb 3, 2012 11:35 am • link • report

@freely

The issue isn't the relative cost of the concrete ties, the issue is the cost of installing them - As the new WFC crossover shows, you'd have to shut down an entire portion of track to do the work. It's likely substantially more expensive and time-intensive to fully replace the track (which is what replacing the ballast would essentially involve) than it is to maintain wood ties and replace them when needed.

You have to account for the time dimension. If people are complaining about service disruptions for replacing wood ties, they'd be howling about the disruptions required to re-grade huge portions of track.

by Alex B. on Feb 3, 2012 11:39 am • link • report

The Examiner piece is kind of laughable. A faster pace of Metro maintnenace would require more at the farebox and would be even more disruptive. More right wing nonsense from people who probably have trouble picking out a wrench.

by Rich on Feb 3, 2012 11:46 am • link • report

Alex,

I was talking about the ballast actually.

We single track half the system EVERY weekend as it is so I don't see the problem. Replace the ties and ballast in quarter or half mile stretchs during the weekend just like they are doing now when they replace entire segments of rail and signaling equipment, when they are already single tracking anyway.

This really isn't that difficult and nor more complicated logistically than what they are already doing.

And instead of doing it again in 20 years, you don't have to worry about it for 60.

Metro should have never been built with wooden ties, but there is no realistic impediment to fixing that problem once and for all.

by freely on Feb 3, 2012 12:01 pm • link • report

@alex and freely

I'm not confused about why they don't replace all the ballast now, to switch to concrete ties. That doesnt sound like it would make sense.

I am confused why they didnt go with concrete ties (and appropriate ballast) to begin with, on such a heavily trafficed system.

by AnonexRRguy on Feb 3, 2012 12:16 pm • link • report

Freely:

We single track half the system EVERY weekend as it is so I don't see the problem.

This is either hyperbole or an unintentional mistake. "Half" of the track mileage is not single tracked every weekend.

Also, remember, they single track for a reason now. They can accomplish a great deal, but some work is mutually exclusive. They can't single track for some work and still do tie and ballast replacement at the same time, exactly.

You're proposing to substantially add to Metro's workload for a limited upside.

AnonexRRguy:

I can't answer that, I have no idea what specific reasons they have for why they made those decisions, or why they can't change now. Either way, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Metro has bigger fish to fry.

by Alex B. on Feb 3, 2012 12:38 pm • link • report

Are ties and ballast only used at grade or are they used above and below ground as well?

by Steven Yates on Feb 3, 2012 1:28 pm • link • report

@Steven Yates:
Ties are not used underground (the rails are anchored in concrete footings). They are generally not used on elevated sections either, but some bridges do have ties.

by Matt Johnson on Feb 3, 2012 2:27 pm • link • report

According to the post, there are 75000 ties that need to be replaced.

At 3 foot to a tie, that is 42 miles of ties -- or bascially the entire above ground system -- not including the elevated sections? There are about 50 or 60 miles aboveground?

by charlie on Feb 3, 2012 2:58 pm • link • report

@charlie

Keep in mind you have track going both ways, so that cuts it down to something like 21 miles.

by Steven Yates on Feb 3, 2012 3:12 pm • link • report

Charlie - don't confuse route miles with track miles.

The number of track miles is at least double the number of route miles, since you have at least two tracks. Add in yard tracks, etc and it's greater.

I also think three feet is a bit generous, it's probably closer to 2 feet. I think your standard wood tie is 9 inches wide.

by Alex B. on Feb 3, 2012 3:16 pm • link • report

@SteveYates, AlexB; right.

2 feet, so that is about 30 miles of track.

The two tracks -- ok -- so about 100 miles of outdoor tracking, so somewhere above 1/3 of all the tracks need new ties?

by charlie on Feb 3, 2012 3:53 pm • link • report

"The Examiner piece is kind of laughable. A faster pace of Metro maintnenace would require more at the farebox and would be even more disruptive. More right wing nonsense from people who probably have trouble picking out a wrench."

The Examiner may be ideological most other subjects, but they are the only "mainstream media" publication in DC that doesn't blindly accept Metro's spin. Do you really think it's acceptable for Metro to report a bus or train that's seven minutes late as on time?

by Phil on Feb 3, 2012 4:44 pm • link • report

Usually is there's single tracking anywhere on a line, the service disruption applies almost equally to every station on the linr because there's a reduction in how often they send trains from the end of the lines. Otherwise, trains would stack up at the point where single tracking starts. So, saying half the system has the effect of single tracking any given weekend isn't far off the mark.

by Falls Church on Feb 4, 2012 9:03 am • link • report

A week long closure between xmas and new years isn't such a far fetched idea. Traffic is so light that time of year that buses could conceivably replace trains if wmata rented some extra buses. Of course, these kind of closures would be a lot more possible once we have streetcars.

by Falls Church on Feb 4, 2012 9:07 am • link • report

FYI there's a typo in one of the item titles "Price [sic] Georges..."

by Lucre on Feb 4, 2012 12:16 pm • link • report

Lucre: Haha! Fixed.

by David Alpert on Feb 4, 2012 3:39 pm • link • report

WMATA and B&O Route NCF beginnings:

1962 NCTA Report:

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2012/02/november-1-1962.html

by Douglas Willinger on Feb 6, 2012 7:04 pm • link • report