Great news about the FAA relaxing building height limits on flight paths to National airport. I believe the rosslyn metro building that's in process benefitted from an exception from FAA as well.

As downtown creeps east toward NoMa,, it will also need to drift south toward Rosslyn and Crystal City. There's simply not enough building and transpo capacity in the traditional downtown centered around the white house.

by Falls Church on Feb 26, 2012 2:51 pm • link • report

@Falls Church "There's simply not enough building and transpo capacity in the traditional downtown centered around the white house.

Actually, downtown has never been centered around the White House. Downtown use to be centered on Pennsylvania Avenue close to the Capitol ... Then it moved more up Penn. and to the north (around Metro Center.) Even now, the area around the White House alternates between residential, government offices and non-profits, and some legal offices. And the downtown that's centered around Metro Center is a shadow of its former self. Even as late as the 80s it had more 'downtown' flavor. But because of lack of adequate parking, we've lost out to places like Tyson's Corner with regards to being a real downtown with everything including real shopping areas.

by Lance on Feb 26, 2012 8:52 pm • link • report

Have you been to metro center lately Lance? It has a HUGE forever 21, a well sized H&M, Macy's and a plenty of retail mixed in with the offices. Granted its going to be a bummer if you don't want to shop at any of those stores but its a pretty vibrant place compared to a few years ago.

by Canaan on Feb 26, 2012 9:03 pm • link • report

Sorry, I wasn't trying to sound super sarcastic but metro center's progress has skyrocketed and really made F street a retail destination again.

by Canaan on Feb 26, 2012 9:56 pm • link • report

"It has a HUGE forever 21, a well sized H&M, Macy's and a plenty of retail mixed in with the offices

All of which could easily fit in to one of the smaller wings of one of the numerous shopping malls at Tyson's Corner. Yeah, it's come back some from the lows it experienced in the '90s. But I still don't think it could be considered a destination shopping place as it once was. People drive to Tysons to go shopping. They drive to Montgomery Mall or to the White Flint area or to Pentagon City to go shopping. But they only shop downtown in DC if they're already there for work or happen to live a couple blocks from it. No one drives there like they do to the current centers of commerce. Why? 'Cause they can't ... Parking is way too expensive for that area to compete with these other newer shopping districts. Now if they had $1 parking like DC USA ... then maybe they'd stand a chance at competing. Though, of course, free parking would be even better.

by Lance on Feb 26, 2012 10:38 pm • link • report

I'm defining downtown as the most valuable land, high concentration of Class A buildings, and/or highest rent per square foot. By that measure, downtown has traditionally been centered around Farragut Square / White House but is expanding eastward.

by Falls Church on Feb 26, 2012 10:58 pm • link • report

Downtown really ought to expand along each of the Metro lines. Arlington Cemetery has been a barrier, but real estate pressure and government care has finally brought it south. In DC, the pressure has been into the gray fields of Mount Vernon Square along the Green Line, into the same at Waterfront and Navy Yard, though it will take time to infill between the Capitol and Navy Yard, and along the Red Line to NoMa.

Something great about the Metro as currently laid out is that, even if large satellite downtowns develop in the suburbs, DC will still be the most accessible location. Once the Silver Line opens this will change to Rosslyn, and I'm concerned that the balance of influence in the region will shift to NoVa over time as a result.

by OctaviusIII on Feb 27, 2012 2:11 am • link • report

Downtown = shopping malls? Seriously?

Downtown is the center of commerce, the central business district of a city. Falls Church has it right.

by MLD on Feb 27, 2012 7:52 am • link • report

My wife and I haven't been to Tyson's Corner to shop in about 5 years, while the percentage of our shopping that happens in DC (particularly downtown, or in Georgetown, or in Tenleytown) has only increased.

I wasn't in DC in the mid-80's, but the selection of shopping in Metro Center (and extending over to Penn Quarter) is leaps and bounds above what it was 10-15 years ago, while anchors of the suburbs like the huge Borders in Tysons or the Bloomingdales in White Flint, are now the places shutting down. Not to mention the almost incomparable dining options between downtown and the big suburban shoppng zones (just ask Michel Richard).

by Jacques on Feb 27, 2012 8:38 am • link • report

Parking has nothing to do with why DC's downtown is not high density. It has everything to do with height restrictions. DC is like Paris or Rome or any historic capital it has to balance business with History. I think it actually does this better than most world capitals.

The economics of redevelopment breakdown when you have restrictions on height as they are in DC. A developer does not see an adequate return on investment if they tear down an 8 story or 10 story building to put up a 15 story building. The additional leasing and sale capacity just doesn't make sense for the typical cost.
http://thetysonscorner.com/blog/the-economics-of-smart-growth-in-northern-virginia/
Feel free to read that, only after you fully read GGW articles of course, if you want an actual break down on the costs.

by Tysons Engineer on Feb 27, 2012 8:44 am • link • report

Add to the fact that fairfax county wants tysons to be like DC by adding metro access and the zoning changes. Cities shouldn't become like suburbs to compete with the suburbs they should focus on its comparative advantages to the suburbs (a big point that Richard Layman harps on). I know that my wife and I appreciate that we can metro downtown (or to clarendon or georgetown) for a lot of whats at Tyson's and we don't have to worry about that traffic and my wife can meet me after work thus saving our saturdays from driving out and dealing with the traffic and hassles but different strokes I guess.

by Canaan on Feb 27, 2012 8:48 am • link • report

@Tysons Engineer

Parking has nothing to do with why DC's downtown is not high density.

Not high density compared to what? Downtown DC is the densest place in the region. Don't confuse density with building height.

by Alex B. on Feb 27, 2012 9:09 am • link • report

I dont think center cities will ever be the shopping hubs for entire regions like they were back in the 1950s. Even Tysons doesnt get shoppers from all over NoVa - Loudoun folks shop at Dulles Town Center, PWC at Potomac Mills, etc. Mall type shopping is inherently polycentric. DC should aspire to providing retail to folks who live and work in DC. And Pentagon City is so close (and accessible by transit as well as car - and BTW parking there is NOT free) that it functions almost as part of DC in some ways. And the retail of that type in DC doesnt need to be concentrtated downtown - it can be in Georgetown, in Columbia Heights, in Friendship Heights, etc. It might be better if DC were more competitive with Tysons for the kinds of stores that are one to a metro area - for DC though the areas competing foer that are Georgetown and Friendship Heights I think, not downtown really.

Anyway, mall shopping is declining nationally - to some extent to street shopping and lifestyle centers, more to big boxes, but especially to the internet.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 27, 2012 9:41 am • link • report

@alex
however the lack of height limits means Tysons and Crystal City and Rosslyn can move at least closer to downtown DC in density, while allowing for more variety in architectural forms, instead of all squat boxes. Whether thats a good thing or not is subject tod debate, I guess.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 27, 2012 9:44 am • link • report

@AWalker

Height is not density.

The densest zoning in Rosslyn allows for FARs of 10. The densest zoning in Downtown DC allows for 12+. The effective FAR of a place like Tysons isn't even close to that.

by Alex B. on Feb 27, 2012 10:04 am • link • report

Thats why I said "close to" and yes, I was thinking of something like 10 vs 13.

WRT Tysons, FAR, I guess that gets complex because the approved plan is for high FAR very close to the metro stations only, and the average is pulled down by the lower FARs elsewhere. A different built environment than DC - but also different from Rosslyn.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 27, 2012 10:29 am • link • report

Ah yes, downtown DC is just a "shadow"! Nobody bothers going there anymore. That must be why DC office rents are 72% higher than in Virginia, and 93% higher than in Maryland, and vacancies are 24-32% lower, because obviously everyone's fleeing downtown.

To get people back downtown, we obviously MUST bulldoze all those pesky buildings, which house shops and offices and such, and replace them with literally lots of parking, preferably free and somehow paid for with vast public subsidy. It worked wonders for enlivening downtown Detroit!

by Payton on Feb 27, 2012 10:31 am • link • report

Tysons Corner has less than 1/3 the office space of downtown Washington. To say it has supplanted DC is simply wrong.

by BeyondDC on Feb 27, 2012 10:33 am • link • report

however the lack of height limits means Tysons and Crystal City and Rosslyn can move at least closer to downtown DC in density, while allowing for more variety in architectural forms, instead of all squat boxes.

This statement is not congruent with the current reality.

Height limits are less stringent in CC and Rosslyn than they are in DC, and are virtually nonexistent out toward Tyson's and Dulles. It'd be a far stretch to claim that any of these places has a "variety in architectural forms." It's really quite the opposite...

by andrew on Feb 27, 2012 10:35 am • link • report

@AWalker

Thats why I said "close to" and yes, I was thinking of something like 10 vs 13.

Close to the max allowed is one thing, but measuring the actual densities built is another.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/04/AR2008070402512.html

Tysons' dependence on the automobile, and a place to park it, is dramatic when compared with other areas. With about 120,000 jobs, Tysons features nearly half again as many parking spots in structures, underground and in surface lots. That's more parking, 40 million square feet, than office space, 28 million square feet. Tysons boasts more spaces, 167,000, than downtown Washington, 50,000, which has more than twice as many jobs.

28m SF in about 4.5 square miles. The Downtown BID area has about 68m SF of office development in 1 square mile.

What's built isn't nearly as close as the zoning.

by Alex B. on Feb 27, 2012 10:47 am • link • report

yeah, well Tysons wasn't built out even under the old zoning, let alone the new plan.

I am looking at where places like Rosslyn and Tysons are going.

For Tysons, the zoning is somewhat opaque - seems like there is no official maximum FAR for the mixed use districts within 1/4 miles of the metro stations, with complicated provisions for special exceptions at the zoning boards discretion. The total development is supposed to almost triple, but thats supposed to be more residential than offices. Even if office space tripled, that would leave Tysons about 1/4 as dense the Downtown BID, wrt office space. But that includes the lower density areas more than 1/4 mile from the metro stations, and much higher density in the TOD zones - while downtown is somewhat more homogeneous in its development. Those TOD zones themselves will be quite dense.

Of course if someone is thinking about tysons as a WHOLE become dense like downtown DC is dense, thats not happening within any foreseeable time horizon. I was thinking more of architectural look and feel, and I think for that the density of the TOD subdistricts is quite relevant.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 27, 2012 11:01 am • link • report

"This statement is not congruent with the current reality."

which is why I said "move" towards.
I would say that tysons has a variety of forms, from hirises to mid rise office parks, etc. However it does not yet have the buildings that will really take advantage of the absence of height limits.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 27, 2012 11:05 am • link • report

and naturally tyson has lots of parking.

Right now there is no rail transit to Tysons, so so bus service, and not even any HOV lanes accessing Tysons directly (which means except for the tolls on the DTR, not free to carpoolers - but effectively cheaper per rider to them) there is little incentive to car pool to tyons (wel theres savings in gas and auto expenses).

Within 12 months Tysons will have HOT/HOV lanes - incentive to carpoolers, and to express bus service. Within 24 month it will have a heavy rail line. Fairly soon it should have at least BRT on Gallows road south, and additional bus service in several directions. LRT down rte 7 through Falls church to seven corners is being discussed. Only then can Tysons begin to become less autocentric.

not that its the same, but what was the ratio of parking to office space in downtown DC in 1972?

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 27, 2012 11:12 am • link • report

I would say that the center of DC's shopping is increasingly becoming Georgetown. It seems like G'town as moved away from nightlife and offices, remained at best steady on restaurants, and has really focused on retail. Perhaps that's meant to discourage rowdy college kids from disturbing the long-time residents. It may also be a recognition that office space isn't the best use of space in G'town due to its lack of metro access.

by Falls Church on Feb 27, 2012 11:42 am • link • report

RE: Tysons

The plan doesn't seem to be to develop it like downtown DC. The plan seems to be to create a new kind of hybrid place that retains elements of its car-orientation but also has a significant TOD portion. In Tysons, they're trying to create something new that really hasn't been done before anywhere else and that's what makes it exciting and a challenging environment for planners/developers. For example, Tysons is currently a hotly debated case study for students at UPenn's school of urban planning.

by Falls Church on Feb 27, 2012 11:45 am • link • report

Increased building heights will only improve Crystal City. Lots of buildings there nearing their natural life, usefulness, energy efficiency, etc. It will also engender a quickened pace of street-scape retail.

by Pelham1861 on Feb 27, 2012 1:03 pm • link • report

F is pretty loaded for shopping as-is, especially in terms of mid-tier/slightly upscale clothing chains. Why would it need to be a "destination shopping place"? I mean, I'm glad it has a good amount of retail and isn't dead after 7 pm or on the weekends, but there's also Connecticut Avenue near Farragut, Georgetown, Friendship Heights...there are a lot of packed retail spots in the city. They don't all have to be mall-style draws. It's more interesting if they aren't.

by worthing on Feb 27, 2012 1:13 pm • link • report

Tysons: a quick look at Ffx's website turns up this report, which indicates that many of the developments approved or proposed at Tysons' rail stations are in the range of 4-5 FAR. That's about equivalent to DC's C-3 zoning, which is what surrounds Dupont Circle, Judiciary Square, etc. (Yes, that's substantially lower density than the C-4 in Metro Center, or the C-5 around Freedom Plaza.)

Retail always follows rooftops; it's always been more decentralized than office/industrial uses. (Decades before suburban shopping malls and Edge Cities, retail had begun decentralizing to streetcar-oriented neighborhood business strips -- like Woodley Park or Columbia Heights -- a century ago.) The wealthiest households live on the western half of this region, so it's no surprise that retail would centralize in business districts on that side of town. In very few North American cities are the 100% corners [i.e., the highest-rent locations] for retail and office in the same place; in almost every instance, retail's 100% corner is further towards the favored quarter.

by Payton on Feb 27, 2012 4:19 pm • link • report