Comments on Streetcar could make "recreation bridge" an active place - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by David C

Mon, 02 Apr 2012 11:58:48 EDT

bridge, in every thing I've seen about the 11th Street bridge, stretching back several years before work began, the piers have always been left as is. In early designs they were going to build catwalks from the sidewalks out to overlooks at the piers - with Osprey nest platforms on the the end points. Where do you get info that the current contract involves taking the piers down? And why would that be MORE expensive? It seems like at worst it would cost the same.

Comment by Falls Church

Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:24:56 EDT

WRT "the private sector", um, for the "private sector" to do something like this there needs to be positive economic return.

If $250 per square foot (my rough estimate of the cost of the project based on the data above) is considered too high a price by the private sector, why isn't it too high a price for the public sector? The only reason for paying above market value for the space is if we think the public sector can develop it into something of significantly greater utility than the private sector. That may potentially be the case, but being the highest bidder on anything based on the belief that you will be able to wring out more synergies than anyone else, comes with a high degree of risk (and a certain amount of hubris).

Comment by Dale1

Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:28:31 EDT

The existing plan calls for leaving the existing down river piers of the old bridge intact, and to have pedestrian walkways built out over them from the new bridge, so we're already getting ways to enjoy the river, view the boats at the Navy Yard, go fishing (the end piers will be lowered closer to the water surface), etc. That is already in the contract and paid for. Work is due to happen this fall or next spring, but this recreation bridge talk could postpone it until it never happens at all.

Comment by Kevin C

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:09:22 EDT

@froggie. I haven't been there, but from all I know, MSP's Stone Arch Bridge is hard-topped from guardrail-to-guardrail, and really is a 28 foot wide, pure walk-and bike transportation http://stonearchbridge.com/ It may be administered as a park and connect parks on both shores, but the bridge *itself* is not park-like.

Contrast that with the grasslands and greenery, meandering path and many on/offs on the High Line. That's a park.

I'd estimate the recreation bridge is 60 feet wide. It will be hard to fill with people from just the endpoints, and so it could end up being scary...like a boulevard though Pyongyang, or Boston City Hall Plaza, and not a comfortable place to be.

Comment by Fischy (Ed F.)

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:13:31 EDT

On funding it -- I imagine some federal transportation dollars could go into this. A special taxing district? Not sure you'll get the business expansion the city would like to see happen at Poplar Point, if you throw in a heavy tax burden. My guess is the opposite will be needed -- tax incentives to get businesses to locate on the "wrong" side of the Anacostia. The real point is that this would be a way to get the streetcar done. While it may not pay for itself, it will go a long way towards that end, if it helps turn Anacostia into a healthy community contributing to the tax base -- and the recreation bridge would be a big boost to the Navy Yard development, which could use some more help, too.

Comment by Fischy (Ed F.)

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:06:19 EDT

Can you fit a soccer stadium on a new bridge?

The points made above by "bridge" are salient and an important caution. However, the idea is fantastic. I've walked the So. Capitol bridge a few times, from Nats games when I parked at the Anacostia metro. That's a long hike, but it's an even longer hike from the end of the span to civilization (such as it is...kidding.).

Having done that, I can say that the only thing that would make the bridge a destination is 2 or 3 streetcar stops on the span. It's fun to imagine a Ponte Vecchio-like structure with all sorts of activity on it, but the Ponte Vecchio isn't long, it's flat, and the neighborhoods come right up to the bridge.

If you want foot traffic on this reimagined bridge, you have to get people there. The streetcar would be the key. It could be a symbiotic project given the trouble they're having in extending the Anacostia line across the river. Enhanced value for each project and all that. Otherwise, it'll just be a grandiose and insanely expensive bike and rollerblading path.

Comment by Richard Layman

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:21:42 EDT

I agree with AWalkerintheCity that by combining the streetcar with this then you have a stronger economic justification to move the project forward, since the f* up with not being able to put the streetcar on the new 11th Street bridge otherwise seriously compromises the value and utility of streetcar service in Anacostia and links to a broader network.

Then you can get some DOT money for it, it's not strictly a parks project.

But development of this project needs to be tied to a TIF district created to support development at Poplar Point, and should be part of an update to/(re)development of a Comprehensive Plan for what we might call the Anacostia River District.

- http://urbanplacesandspaces.blogspot.com/2012/03/11th-street-recreation-bridge-proposal.html

- http://urbanplacesandspaces.blogspot.com/2012/03/wanted-comprehensive-plan-for-anacostia.html

WRT "the private sector", um, for the "private sector" to do something like this there needs to be positive economic return. It's not that there won't be, but it isn't the same as the High Line because the High Line is located within a dense urban setting and had plenty of properties along it that could be adaptively reused.

(There is a nice graphic on the High Line in the Toronto Globe & Mail right now: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/lisa-rochon/take-a-walk-on-new-yorks-high-line/article2379512/ .)

Even so, the neighborhood hasn't been supportive on the creation of a special taxing district to support the High Line's maintenance and expansion.

- http://www.dnainfo.com/20110812/chelsea-hells-kitchen/hudson-river-park-tax-plan-could-affect-more-properties

Comment by Hag of Beare

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:38:06 EDT

No one ever seems to consider the use of the river in all this. A bridge/park there could easily be used for the parents who come out to crew regattas on the Anacostia.

In turn, maybe there could/would be more regattas there if the area were more attractive. Watching the races from the park in Anacostia is awkward in some ways.

There are also dragon races and lots of other water activities that could be encouraged in the area (as they are on the Potomac in Georgetown....

Comment by HighLiner

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:26:17 EDT

Kevin C - I'd add a fourth reason to your list. The High Line has a huge amount of private backing/funding which would be difficult to replicate elsewhere.

The High Line is not a "low-maintenance" park - there is a lot going on and many employees. Without the money to maintain the art/fixtures and pay the employees, the High Line would be much, much less than it is.

With the density of the surrounding area, I'm sure there is great benefit in NY but how many municipalities can afford a park with as much O&M (Operations and Maintenance) as the High Line has?

Comment by AWalkerInTheCity

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 14:25:25 EDT

"Build the streetcar on the local span of the new 11th St Bridge."

in its own ROW, or shared?

"The new downriver span will connect 11th Street and MLK, while the old span no longer will, so putting the streetcar on the old span would require further redesign."

sure, at what cost (for the construction, not just the redesign

even if its costlier to do the street car on the old span, than on the new span - IF its not that much more, IF it gets a transit only ROW, and IF it adds recreational space as well, it might be worth it.

Comment by andrew

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 14:12:35 EDT

There are literally dozens of other things in this area that I'd rather see than this bridge.

Extend Mass Ave. Put a bike/ped path along the CSX rail bridge. Build the streetcar on the local span of the new 11th St Bridge. Any of these things would cost less, and would bring significantly more benefits to the community.

It doesn't even connect "2 neighborhoods of moderate density," like the author suggests. The closest two residential structures on either side of the river are still over 0.8 miles apart from each other. And that's the absolute best case scenario.

The proponents of this idea are massively overstating the number of people who live (or who even can live -- the area has limited development potential for a myriad of reasons) at either end of the bridge.

Comment by Falls Church

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:57:27 EDT

I tend to agree with Bridge's comments. I think the only way to save this bridge is to allow a private entity to spend the likely $50M needed to create it and let them do mostly whatever they want on it. It just doesn't seem like the best use of parks & rec money for the city to do it and also seems like putting all your parks & rec eggs in one basket.

Maybe Snyder will pay for it and put the Redskins practice facility there. Or, allow some developer to make it into a light industrial area.

That said, I don't know if the economics add up. Let's say the bridge is 1000 x 200 feet (200,000 square feet). If it costs $50M to develop, that's $250 per square foot which sounds expensive for what you're getting.

Comment by Froggie

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:07:11 EDT

Kevin: judging from your comments about the Stone Arch Bridge, I gather you have never been there. Especially with regards to your claim that it has "no opretense or expense of being a park". That said, you are correct in your High Line points.

Comment by bridge

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:06:27 EDT

1. This is never going to happen. This thing is slated to be demo'd this summer and DMPED can wish all they like but no one has run this by the contractor yet. Changing the scope to leave the piers intact will actually cost more, not less than removing it all because they would have to take expensive precautions not to damage them as they remove the deck.
2. Bad location, no connectivity to anything that would allow it to be used as a park, which this town isn't exactly lacking in as it is.
3. That approximately 30 million will turn into 40-50 million and even IF they rushed around and changed the contractors scope to leave the piers, this thing would die the death of a million cuts.
4. Just in the event you missed number 1, this is never going to happen. When the Mayor is suffering for a vocal barrage from his base for cutting HHS funds by ~10 million and underfunding (as they see it) the school budget this year by a couple percent, there is no way he is going to even try to find the 50 million plus to build this.

Comment by Christine

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:56:16 EDT

This is not as simple as one might think. The design of the new bridge includes on and off ramps for the new spans in the area where the existing spans touch down, so keeping the existing downriver span would probably require a redesign of some of the planned ramps. The new downriver span will connect 11th Street and MLK, while the old span no longer will, so putting the streetcar on the old span would require further redesign. And finally, the new downriver span includes a 16-foot wide walkway on the downriver side that is supposed to provide an attractive way to walk or bike between Capital Hill and Anacostia, and leaving the existing span would block views from this walkway.For more information on the design, check out some of the PDFs posted at http://ddot.dc.gov/DC/DDOT/Projects+and+Planning/Capital+Infrastructure+Projects/11th+Street+Bridge+Project

Comment by Kevin C

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:19:19 EDT

The NYC High Line has three critical things going for it that a bridge over a river doesn't have: 1) It is surrounded by a dense, active urban area 2) it has many places to get on/off 3) It has little competition from nearby open areas.

Meanwhile, at Stone Arch Bridge, although 2800 feet long (http://stonearchbridge.com/). it has no pretense (or expense) of being a park. It is purely a way to get across the river.

You might think of the DC bridge as the best of both. I think David Alpert is right in worrying that it is the worst of both: Too isolated to be a park, too wide to be a bike path.

Comment by Jack Love

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:48:52 EDT

Two words:

New York High Line.

Ok that's four words, but never doubt the draw of a repurposed bridge.

Comment by Slim

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:46:45 EDT

Oops, I forgot to say that the Stone Arch Bridge is in Minneapolis. It crosses the Mississippi River.

Comment by Slim

Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:45:18 EDT

The Stone Arch Bridge is a great example of a successful bridge closed to traffic. It is very popular.