Comments on Breakfast links: Shape DC's future - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by Alex B.

Tue, 15 May 2012 21:46:10 EDT

The DC suburbs have done a great job of providing poor people (particularly immigrants) with the opportunities they need to create a better life for themselves.

Relatively poor immigrants and homeless people panhandling in a park are not the same thing. Not at all.

Comment by Fischy (Ed F.)

Tue, 15 May 2012 20:50:01 EDT

Otherwise it will turn into Crystal City, which is an abomination.

So many abominations. Hard to keep track.

Comment by Falls Church

Tue, 15 May 2012 17:26:14 EDT

Getting the suburban do-gooders to take care of their own backyard would be a step toward regionalizing the issue and its solution

Fair enough. But the urbanites shpuld consider that maybe their policies also contribute to poverty. The DC suburbs have done a great job of providing poor people (particularly immigrants) with the opportunities they need to create a better life for themselves.

Comment by AWalkerInTheCity

Tue, 15 May 2012 16:53:36 EDT

also Crystal City has a nice little park.

http://www.crystalcity.org/go/crystal-city-water-park

Comment by Alex B.

Tue, 15 May 2012 16:46:13 EDT

Otherwise it will turn into Crystal City, which is an abomination.

A park would be very nice. But NoMa won't be turning into Crystal City, period.

Comment by kinverson

Tue, 15 May 2012 16:27:58 EDT

The public ROW is already a mishmash of existing gas, sewer, water, telecom utilities all put in over the past ~century in whatever manner worked. You can't just dig a hole in the road and bury the line.

Once I was driving with an electrician friend of mine along an urban street with lots of overhead wires and very few trees. I mentioned how ugly it was, and how lines in cities, at least on the main drags, should be buried (I wasn't even thinking about outages, as I said there were few trees anyway). He said the mains down the center of the street are the easy parts - remember that in areas with overhead wires, the telecom lines would almost surely be on the overhead poles, so they're no worry.

Then, one you get it in the ROW, you have to run the power (underground ofcourse) into every home, cutting through yards, walkways, peoples stairs and gardens, still having to cut down trees or gut their roots to get by, incensing every single last person you bury the power for.

Yeah, my buddy said this is the biggest cost. The lines run into buildings a story or two up, depending, and then run down a conduit to an easily accessible meter. For every building, and on some buildings every unit in that building, a trench has to be run, and, well, the rest of what you said. And if you think that more than a few property owners would be willing to cover the cost themselves, you're crazy. So it's either the utility - meaning ALL customers, not just those affected - or the local or state government that would pay (all or part). It's just not gonna happen.

Comment by Ward 1 Guy

Tue, 15 May 2012 14:05:23 EDT

I agree that NoMa needs real open space. Otherwise it will turn into Crystal City, which is an abomination.

Comment by I. Rex

Tue, 15 May 2012 13:45:17 EDT

@Hogwash. In my view, I think that encapsulates the problem with this decision by Mr. Brown. Public parks, playgrounds are put on the backburner because affordable housing is a "bigger" problem. But will the $18 million being re-routed to affordable housing really put a dent in the problem? I don't think so. The reality is there is a great demand for housing in this city that is causing prices to rise. The things DC has done to combat this issue, such as creating affordable housing themselves, giving money to non-profits to create housing, or subsidizing low interest rate mortgages to the poor, have been (to varying degrees) failures and losses to city taxpayers. The only thing i've seen DC have success in is when they make developers create mixed income housing, but that doesn't require money from the city budget. To me given the track record, throwing $18 million at the issue of affordable housing will not make a noticeable difference. However, that $18 million could make a huge and immediate difference in revitalizing a neighborhood and improving the quality of life for many residents and children.

Comment by Electricity

Tue, 15 May 2012 13:32:24 EDT

Alger,

DC can't orchistrate its own agencies with DDOT to get relevant work done when they tear up a road, Pepco to do the District work for it isn't going to happen.

Buring overhead lines in dense urban areas is commonly in the 10 million dollar a mile range. Lots of local public and private projects have had to eat the expense and are valid comp points.

One guy said 5.5 billion, I said ~4 billion. Sure, there is room to negotiate, but it is certainly a multibillion dollar job.

Burying the utilities at this point is a lose/lose.

It costs the customers a fortune and infuriates every customer for decades and puts Pepco in an awful position.

Versus...trimming "some" trees every once in awhile along "some" peoples ROW, and it doesn't cost the GDP of a small African nation.

Comment by Fischy (Ed F.)

Tue, 15 May 2012 13:28:59 EDT

Opposition to the Golden Gate Bridge was just as fierce as opposition to major projects today. The arguments are uncannily familiar: no unbiased numbers, proponents are moving too fast, and more.

It's settled then the DC Metro area needs another bridge over the Potomac.

Comment by OctaviusIII

Tue, 15 May 2012 13:27:33 EDT

re: the Golden Gate Bridge

Marin County, which is the north end of the bridge, was nearly ruined by it. It's a marvel of engineering, but downtowns were bisected by the connecting freeway and are only now coming back to life. Our suburban streetcar system went out of business thanks to competition with driving in 1941 and we didn't get transit again until 1972 - 30 years of transitless existence because of the thing.

We only narrowly fought off more new highways and sprawl in the 1960s, which would have ruined more towns, and yet some places still ballooned into monotony. In San Francisco, the Embarcadero Freeway cut off the city from its waterfront and was only demolished thanks to an earthquake.

All this is thanks to a decision to make the Bridge into a road exclusively for cars. Had rail been included from the start, the story of the Bay Area may have been very different.

Comment by affordable housing

Tue, 15 May 2012 13:26:22 EDT

DC has PLENTY of affordable housing. I worked two jobs, saved money, bought a run-down house in a run-down neighborhood and fixed it up myself over years. As a consequence, the house contributed to the neighborhood's subsequent improvement. ANYONE can do the same if they are not lazy or demand immediate gratification by getting the government to subsidize their personal desires. Parks DC last for centuries. Subsidized housing temporarily rewards the lazy at the expense of lasting park space for hard-working tax payers.

Comment by Alger

Tue, 15 May 2012 13:08:45 EDT

@Electricity: This is what I like about this blog, people respond intelligently to comments.
See the thing is, the estimates are suspect and puffed with the diminished returns of digging up every street in DC. Some of the solutions for controlling costs and burying lines in densely urbanized DC are already addressed in that same document (Key point: bury lines when opportunity presents itself e.g. streets are already torn up).
Elsewhere there is considerable work that could be done on the cheap, particularly where the threat of tree fall is highest. Also the technology for burying power lines has both advanced considerably and come down in price since 2004.
It's also cute that Pepco expresses a Lorax-like concern for the trees by burying power lines when their above ground lines require constant tree felling and pruning. Given the context, that is downright humorous.
And to answer your question about what I am willing to pay for electricity: I am willing to pay more for electricity that is delivered than to continue paying for electricity that doesn't arrive whenever the wind blows. I am 99% certain Pepco could figure out how to do it cheaper that charging everyone 125$ a month. But hey, it's Pepco. Maybe someday soon I will be paying that anyway for no improvements in service.

Comment by MLD

Tue, 15 May 2012 12:32:24 EDT

Fifth result for Pepco estimate bury dc.

The report you cited before says that in 2004 PEPCO estimated in the neighborhood of $4 billion to bury the lines.

Comment by Electricity

Tue, 15 May 2012 12:29:57 EDT

Google is your friend...

http://www.pepco.com/_res/documents/blueribbon-dc.pdf

Comment by goldfish

Tue, 15 May 2012 12:20:56 EDT

@MLD, you've got some amazing heads-up.
@Electricity says that it will cost $4B, but my cite says $5.8 B. That is why I wanted his cite, so I may learn from it.

Comment by MLD

Tue, 15 May 2012 12:17:57 EDT

@goldfish

An amusing question considering.... http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/14047/with-prodding-pepco-removes-double-utility-poles/#comment-134025

Comment by goldfish

Tue, 15 May 2012 12:16:01 EDT

@Electricity, do can you please provide a citation for that?

Comment by HogWash

Tue, 15 May 2012 12:06:43 EDT

the money would be better spent doing something the govt can actually accomplish: making the quality of life better in Noma for the residents, families, and workers in the area by creating parks and playgrounds.

I don't think the decision to create parks and playgrounds (something the gov't can do) should necessarily outweigh making sure we have affordable housing in the city (something else the gov't can do). For me, it's about setting priorities..and parks and playground aren't.

Comment by Electricity

Tue, 15 May 2012 11:56:01 EDT

Alger,

Pepco estimated it would cost nearly 4 billion to bury the lines in the District alone. Now 70% of the cities customers (commercial and residential) are already buried, so thats 4 billion to bury the last 30%.

I am assuming you would be willing to assume that cost as their customer...a cost they estimated to add ~$125 dollars a month to your electricity bill?

Comment by selxic

Tue, 15 May 2012 11:41:19 EDT

I visited the link via the twitter link and forgot to mention that in my comment, Alex B.

Comment by I. Rex

Tue, 15 May 2012 11:34:01 EDT

I completely agree with Mr. Goodman's thoughts about the Mr. Brown's bad decision to defund the Noma parks creation. I don't even live in Noma. I just think the govt undervalues the positive psychological effects that playgrounds, public parks, can have for neighborhoods and the entire city in general. Frankly, the city has such a terrible track record with providing affordable housing, the money would be better spent doing something the govt can actually accomplish: making the quality of life better in Noma for the residents, families, and workers in the area by creating parks and playgrounds.

Comment by Alger

Tue, 15 May 2012 11:14:30 EDT

Dear Pepco: I have an idea, maybe, just maybe, the technology exists to relocate powerlines underground. I could look into it for you upon request.

Comment by Alex B.

Tue, 15 May 2012 10:46:35 EDT

The Jaffe link is missing.

Comment by selxic

Tue, 15 May 2012 10:35:32 EDT

Aren't "suburban do-gooders" acknowledging the issue also existing in DC part of regionalizing the issue? The "suburbs" are part of the region. Was there any evidence that the "suburban do-gooders" weren't also doing work in their home communities? It's not unusual for churches to partner together to provide services and some even belong to regional organizations to provide more for a greater number of people. Since those do-gooders were actually on the street, they probably have a good idea of the services needed by homeless and are helping to support the DC services there are "no shortage of."

Comment by SuburbanDoGooder

Tue, 15 May 2012 10:11:32 EDT

alexandria has a feeding program, and i and other suburban do gooders have been donating to it for years.

http://www.alive-inc.org/

Comment by Rich

Tue, 15 May 2012 09:55:24 EDT

I happened to walk by Franklin Park when churches were doing their feeding programs one noon. The vans all came from the suburbs and most of them were from suburbs that could use some charity themselves like Suitland, Alexandria, Manassas, etc. DC has no shortage of services for the homeless (some of them run out of DC churches not too far away) and has been the dumping ground for homeless people for decades. Getting the suburban do-gooders to take care of their own backyard would be a step toward regionalizing the issue and its solution and making Franklin more attractive for a wider range of users.

Comment by Tony Goodman, ANC 6C04

Tue, 15 May 2012 09:08:00 EDT

Defunding parks in NoMa is a shortsighted decision, will hamper continued growth of the area,and is unfair to the thousands of current and future residents, workers & visitors to this area.

The events and activities which have helped turn this area into a true neighborhood have all been held on private land in previous years. In fact, last year's areas for movie nights and the farmers' market are both scheduled to go away this year for development. Public parkland is essential to help this neighborhood grow.

There are no parks in NoMa: Not a single playground, dog run, basketball court, or other similar area. There are thousands of residential units built or under construction, including hundreds of affordable units for families, artists and others. The surrounding neighborhoods, including Eckington and Near Northeast are also lacking in parks, while filled with families and children.

The NoMa area already produces far more tax revenue than it receives in services. It is unfair to neighborhood residents that one of the few remaining parcels owned by the public will now be sold for private development with no direct benefit back to the community. I hope that Chairman Brown can find funds to help this neighborhood continue to grow and thrive.