WRT the Loudoun County news: what are these people "supporters" of?

They have a deadline. They should be willing to make a decision by that deadline. It would seem that the time for extracting confessions has passed.

by Gray on Jun 20, 2012 8:47 am • link • report

@gary - they want to defer a vote, to decrese the possibility of a no vote. From their perspective, that seems like a reasonable strategy. I think Fairfax is going to have to start looking past the notion of Loudoun's participation though.

Re NYC = IIUC the outer boroughs are rather denser than the areas the Purple line will traverse.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 9:08 am • link • report

@AWalkerInTheCity: But it's their vote. It's not like they're requesting that some third party hold off on something. They just want to keep putting off actually voting.

Why can't they make a decision now?

by Gray on Jun 20, 2012 9:11 am • link • report

Just let the toll road users pay for the metro and don't put any non-airport stops in Loudoun. Solved.

by Neutrino on Jun 20, 2012 9:11 am • link • report

RE: Loudoun County & Silver Line
So first they hem and haw about whether they're in because of the PLA, and now they're going to hem and haw because they don't want to figure out how to pay for it?

We have a saying for these people: FISH OR CUT BAIT

by MLD on Jun 20, 2012 9:17 am • link • report

"But it's their vote. It's not like they're requesting that some third party hold off on something. They just want to keep putting off actually voting. "

Evidently they believe that there are things MWAA can tell them that will make it easier to convince soft no votes to yes votes (or alternatively they think the politics of this will be different in a few months). I don't know the details, but I trust the one thing legisltators tend to be good at is counting votes in their legislative body.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 9:19 am • link • report

It's time to call Loudoun's bluff on the Silver Line. Either they're on board or off. MWAA and WMATA need to dust off plans to terminate the line at Dulles.

by Sage on Jun 20, 2012 9:19 am • link • report

The list of 21 items some Loudoun supervisors want done before supporting the Silver Line is absurd. They have two freakin stops -- that doesn't mean they can get a list of demands about how WMATA and MWAA are run. Also, the proposed delay is way too long. They don't get to push back the project another 5 months, on top of the 3 months from their previous extension, when they are only a small minority partner in this project. Get a grip....make a decision.

by Falls Church on Jun 20, 2012 9:20 am • link • report

Why was the Silver Line cut in two phases to begin with?

Also, this seems similar to Barry's resolution on the streetcars in DC. Too many "democratic" moments in a decision process. From a distance, this seems fine, but in the end, it only works in the favor of extortionist politicians, who will use any opportunity to abuse anything to benefit their personal agenda unrelated to the matter at hand.

The Silver Line is being built. It's time for Loudoun to get on board. Or, to say no and stop whining about traffic. There is no need for more time. Things will not change. They're just frustrating the process and being unreliable partners.

This will also make Fairfax hesitant about future metro projects with neighbors. Which is a shame, because the next metro project (in VA) - the extension of the blue, yellow and perhaps orange lines) will be in Fairfax again and it will have to learn to deal with PW, which is in many ways similar to Loudoun.

by Jasper on Jun 20, 2012 9:37 am • link • report

@ Jasper; there was an interesting read on the public works in New Orleans and how much money was saved by having it approriated as a lump sum.

The same is true here. It isn't a failure of democracy, it is a failure of funding.

by charlie on Jun 20, 2012 9:44 am • link • report

@Sage I'm 100% with you. Call Loudoun's bluff. MWAA and WMATA need to plan to end the line at Dulles. It's all I ever wanted out of the Silver Line anyway. And I bet a lot of Metro riders are in the same boat as me.

by rdhd on Jun 20, 2012 9:47 am • link • report

@sage, falls, and rdhd

FFX's priority if the transformation of Tysons. Anything that improves transit mode share and reduces SOV mode share helps. The two stations in loudoun will help (vs the other transit alt from Loudoun)with that. So will having a higher per cent of loudoun development be in TOD instead of sprawl. So while its not worth waiting forever, FFX can't be completely indifferent to the fate of the two stations.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 9:51 am • link • report

Dump the bums. Teabaggers aren't going to keep holding up progress in all forms. I'd also advocate tossing them out of office the next chance the voters get.

by Arlington Civilzation on Jun 20, 2012 9:54 am • link • report

@jasper

I'm not sure its wise, let alone necessary for any of those extensions to have outer county participation. Orange line should terminate at Centreville, not in PWC. Blue and/or yellow in southern FFX, not in PWC. That was already true, and this just reinforces that.

Anyway none of that is possible till we have a new potomac crossing (seperate blue line) and that will take massive cooperation - DC and multiple VA jurisdictions. I am not hopeful.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 9:54 am • link • report

It seems like the main opposition in loudoun is from the fact that they don't want to see a raise in any taxes to help finance it. Which is fine I guess if we realize that when they start arguing that route 7 needs to be upgraded to 8-10 lanes and the tolls are raised on the greenway (a de facto tax) I hope they can find a way to finance it w/o looking at raising revenue somewhere.

Then again maybe the state will pay for 100% of it since they seem perfectly willing to expand state roads elsewhere w/o looking at all of the costs.

And why would MWAA need a permanent IG for a temporary construction project?

by drumz on Jun 20, 2012 9:54 am • link • report

I want the Silver Line to go out to Loudoun, but honestly, this all makes me very worried about having Loudoun be part of WMATA. I just don't think that they can be relied upon to pay their dues or be a productive/constructive part of the board.

I feel the same way as the others here. Loudoun is not a gamble that Metro should take. Time to call their bluff, and dust off the plans to end the line at the airport.

by andrew on Jun 20, 2012 10:05 am • link • report

Ok, so 3 supervisors leaning towards "opt-out" now want "that WMATA and MWAA agree to have the unanimous approval of all jurisdictions in the compact, not just among their own boards, — before committing to any capital expenditures." Talk about an impossible demand and one, that if implemented, would lead to gridlock and extreme delays in any capital expenditures for the DC Metro and the 2 airports. Classic make ridiculous demands stall tactic to try to kill the project w/o voting against it.

While MWAA should tell them to decide whether they in or out, Loudoun opting out would cause a 12-18 month delay, so they may get another postponement of the contract going out for bids. All I can add is that I live in Loudoun Cty, but I did not vote for the incumbents.

by AlanF on Jun 20, 2012 10:11 am • link • report

AWITC,

I completely agree on the importance of Loudoun's two stops on the success of the economic development in Tysons that is the economic rationale for the Silver Line. When the issue was the PLA, I was willing to give Loudoun a pass because I could see that as an issue that goes to the heart of their strongly held principles/ideology. However, their list of 21 demands is absurd. They are no longer negotiating in good faith and are now holding the Silver Line project hostage for ridiculous demands that are only tangential to the decision they need to make (or simply not realistic, such as demanding VDOT pay for a greater share of the Silver Line).

As I understand it, Loudoun is likely going with special tax districts for financing. Part of the reason for the requested delay is so they can negotiate the exact boundaries of the special tax district prior to making a decision on the Silver Line. Once again, that's an unreasonable request as they don't need to work out all minutiae prior to making a decision.

by Falls Church on Jun 20, 2012 10:18 am • link • report

what are these people "supporters" of?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-state-of-nova/post/loudoun-prince-william-highway-is-not-the-outer-beltway-but-its-a-big-controversial-road/2012/06/15/gJQA7kHLeV_blog.html

by Surprised? on Jun 20, 2012 10:20 am • link • report

I expected the supervisor who made the "evil" comment to be somewhat of a wingnut, but damn, that guy is beyond the fringe. I'm somewhat inclined to agree with the cut out Loudoun crowd. So long as they keep electing hate-filled bigots, I think we shouldn't bother trying to reason with them. Build the line to Dulles and forget about the rest of the county.

by TM on Jun 20, 2012 10:41 am • link • report

@ awalkerinthecity:I'm not sure its wise, let alone necessary for any of those extensions to have outer county participation. Orange line should terminate at Centreville, not in PWC. Blue and/or yellow in southern FFX, not in PWC. That was already true, and this just reinforces that.

Yeah, but PW needs metro, whether they like it or not. They're the ones cloggig up I-66 and I-95. And the HOT-lanes are not gonna change a thing about that.

Anyway none of that is possible till we have a new potomac crossing (seperate blue line) and that will take massive cooperation - DC and multiple VA jurisdictions. I am not hopeful.

Well, the one in Rosslyn only requires DC and Arlington. That will work out. Problem is that the money will have to come from the FEDs (also not really a problem) and VA, which is the big problem as long as there is a republican governor.

I think extending the existing lines (also in MD, by the way) is the only way to force a new Potomac crossing. Or two actually. We need one near Rosslyn, but there should also be a connection between King St and Branch Ave.

I will say that the RushMinus service is helping. The result I am observing is that part of the orange sardining crush has nicely been transferred to the blue line, exactly as I feared. The blue line is full in Crystal City now, gets to crush level in Pentagon City and squeezes to sardine level at the Pentagon. This morning it took about 5 minutes to close the doors at the Pentagon. I was getting worried they were gonna unload the train.

It is clear that vision does not drive the expansion of the metro system. Malfunction and overloading does. So, let's do all we can to overload the system. By extending all the lines as far outward as possible. Get the yellow line to Potomac Mills. Get the blue line along the Fairfax County Parkway (now VA-286, old VA-7100) and VA-123 to GMU and Fairfax City. Get the orange line to Warrenton. Get the Silver Line to Leesburg. And not to forget MD: get the green line to Andrew's, Clinton and Waldorf. Get the purple line to Branch Ave and across the bridge to King St and further up VA-7 to Bailey's Crossroads, 7 corners and Tysons. Get the other end of the green line to BWI. And fnially, get the red line to Gaithersburg and Germantown.

That will cause so much traffic that delays will occur, the system will suffer and after about 15 years of that, there will be the political necessity (not will) to do something.

In the end, it's easier to extend the lines because MD and VA have influential congressional delegations. Both the majority and minority whips in the House for instance. Both of which are oddly not paying out as much as you'd think.

by Jasper on Jun 20, 2012 10:43 am • link • report

Yeesh. For all the reporting on this list of 21 items, would it kill any of the media outlets to link to the source document?

http://www.loudoun.gov/documents/11/1336/7529/10276/Rail%20to%20Dulle%20Opt-in%20Consideration%20Item%2006%2018%2012_201206190749116202.pdf

Took me a rather long time to get to it, despite being mentioned in every single news article. To all the news reporters out there: the internet these days has these handy things called 'links,' you might find them useful!

by Alex B. on Jun 20, 2012 10:46 am • link • report

In Other News: Oboe-Schiller Index Up 2.386%

by oboe on Jun 20, 2012 10:51 am • link • report

Ah, thanks Alex. Was just gonna post that.

And, yes. The list of demands is preposterous.

by andrew on Jun 20, 2012 10:52 am • link • report

@Falls church: They are no longer negotiating in good faith and are now holding the Silver Line project hostage ...

From the linked article: "“It is possible the project would get completed to Dulles Airport, but it will stop at Dulles Airport. There will be a rail line behind it which would make it impossible for it to ever be continued into Loudoun County. That’s the worse case scenario for us, where we are paying very high tolls, we are getting no economic benefit, our commuters have no access to the airport station, and they will have very limited access to the station’s in Fairfax County,” said Supervisor Matt Letourneau (R-Dulles), a Phase 2 supporter.

Bad faith is evident on both sides of this issue. MWAA is saying to LC, buy into this now, on our terms, or be forever screwed. This is not a good deal for the majority of taxpayers. MWAA should allow them to gracefully and gradually buy into this project. I don't blame the taxpayers for being pissed.

by goldfish on Jun 20, 2012 11:02 am • link • report

Hoo boy, that list of demands smells like five-day-old garbage.

@goldfish: not sure how you see that as bad faith on MWAA's part. Letourneau wants to opt-in and is identifying the consequences of foolishly opting out. The "threat" of those consequences only comes if Loudoun decides to bail on the project, in which case they shouldn't deserve anything anyway.

by worthing on Jun 20, 2012 11:10 am • link • report

"Well, the one in Rosslyn only requires DC and Arlington. That will work out. Problem is that the money will have to come from the FEDs (also not really a problem) and VA, which is the big problem as long as there is a republican governor."

Va side financing will have to have push coming from Fairfax (and maybe Alex and other jurisdictions) as well as Arlington, or it will not happen. So political cooperation, if not technical cooperation.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 11:20 am • link • report

@goldfish
This is not a good deal for the majority of taxpayers.
How so? Got any numbers that say so? Because other people say it's a really good deal: http://cra.gmu.edu/pdfs/Loudoun_MetroRail.pdf

MWAA should allow them to gracefully and gradually buy into this project. I don't blame the taxpayers for being pissed.
You do buy in gradually, it's called bonding and you stretch out the construction costs over many years.

You know what makes these projects MORE expensive rather than less? Letting Loudoun opt-out now and then having them come back in 10 years and say "oh yeah hey remember that Metro thing you asked us about, we'll take that now!" Then you get to blow even more money redoing (and paying for AGAIN) the planning, review and everything for two stations that should have been completed in the first place. And you lose the cost savings from bundling it in with a larger project, etc.

by MLD on Jun 20, 2012 11:22 am • link • report

"Yeah, but PW needs metro, whether they like it or not. They're the ones cloggig up I-66 and I-95. And the HOT-lanes are not gonna change a thing about that."

A. the sources of clogging are outer FFX as well as PWC, afaik.

B. PWC origin commuters can bus or drive to Centreville. A Centreville station would probably be a class parking/bus focused terminus with fairly straightforward access - somewhat different from the complexities in and near Dulles. While it would be worth something to get the line to PWC, I don't know it would be worth what an extension would cost.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 11:23 am • link • report

@worthing: most residents in LC will get few benefits from this project, which the mainly go to commercial landowners in Tysons. Later, in say 20 years as Tysons is built out, there will be more advantages for county residents. The smart thing to do is make it expandable at their LC's option. As it stands now, the project goes a bridge too far.

by goldfish on Jun 20, 2012 11:23 am • link • report

I expected the supervisor who made the "evil" comment to be somewhat of a wingnut, but damn, that guy is beyond the fringe. I'm somewhat inclined to agree with the cut out Loudoun crowd. So long as they keep electing hate-filled bigots, I think we shouldn't bother trying to reason with them. Build the line to Dulles and forget about the rest of the county.

I thought TM must be exaggerating, so I Googled Mr. Delgaudio. Holy crap. If anything, he understated the case. Hate-filled bigots everywhere are saying to TM, "Whoa now - comparing me to Delgaudio? Don't you think that's uncalled for? No need to get nasty!" This guy makes Ken Cuccinelli look like Harvey Milk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Delgaudio

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/03/eugene-delgaudio-s-non-profit-designated-as-hate-group--74268.html

Not that this has anything to do with the merits of metrorail beyond Dulles, but it does make me, at least, more likely to say screw-em.

by dcd on Jun 20, 2012 11:30 am • link • report

Odd - that document says failing LOS on the Greenway, rail or not. I thought the high tolls on the Greenway meant its underutilized? Is that expected to change by 2018?

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 11:34 am • link • report

BTW, reading the full list of demands is flabbergasting.Sounds like they modeled it after this http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/austrianultimatum.htm

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 11:39 am • link • report

I haven't read all 21 points but considering the first five basically call for dismantling everything that MWAA does and gives its power back to the state or to Loudoun county (but still leaves MWAA on the hook for all the money, which can't from its tolls on its own road) I think its safe to say that the Loudoun County Board isn't really interested in a good faith negotiation with MWAA.

Now in ten years replace those 21 points with WMATA instead of MWAA and we can see that maybe we're better off avoiding loudoun right now.

by drumz on Jun 20, 2012 11:42 am • link • report

@MLD: the report shows the bennies going to LC commercial property owners with concomitant taxes. But I wrote residents. The average homewoner will get hit with increased tolls, causing more traffic on local roads, increasing congestion, and not get to take home the tidy profits the commercial landowners will get. The deal sucks for them -- but hey! the banks will make out.

A project can get too big, even though you "save" by increasing its size. It is too big when it is not fully utilized.

by goldfish on Jun 20, 2012 11:54 am • link • report

The average homewoner will get hit with increased tolls, causing more traffic on local roads, increasing congestion, and not get to take home the tidy profits the commercial landowners will get.

And, if Loudoun opts out - all of these will still be true!

by Alex B. on Jun 20, 2012 11:56 am • link • report

@Alex B: you are right -- thus, this deal is brinksmanship. It is no wonder LC is pissed. I would be livid myself, and whatever the shortcomings of Mr. Delgaudio, he has a point.

by goldfish on Jun 20, 2012 12:02 pm • link • report

Go to the comments section of Transportation Nation article about the LoCo decision that is linked above. There is a novel and hysterical argument againt the Silver Line going into the county. In addition to standard right wing fear of DC criminals and hatred of unions, a new meme emerges:

"Let the Fairfax hippies keep it."

Who knew the smell of patchouli in Tyson's Corner was so overwhelming?

by watcher on Jun 20, 2012 12:17 pm • link • report

@watcher: there will always be jackasses, but they neither add nor detract from the merits of this project.

by goldfish on Jun 20, 2012 12:25 pm • link • report

"the report shows the bennies going to LC commercial property owners with concomitant taxes. But I wrote residents."

if there is an issue with the distribution of benefits within Loudoun County (and I personally dout that home values in LC are seperable from the benefits of the Silver Line - both in terms of commercial development in LC, and in terms of access to Tysons) then the LC board can deal with that.

Note WELL. The current Loudoun county bd has 4 votes out of 9 leaning to opt in - and thats an ALL GOP board - the LC Democratic party almost entirely supports opt in AFAIK. Its basically one half of one half of LC that is opposed. Its just that the combination of first past the post voting, and the recent political developments favoring the GOP in Loudoun, make that one half of one half very powerful.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 12:27 pm • link • report

@ goldfish:MWAA should allow them to gracefully and gradually buy into this project. I don't blame the taxpayers for being pissed

They get two stations. How more gradual do you want it? By the quarter station?

@ AWITC:PWC origin commuters can bus or drive to Centreville

I am sure people in Dale City, Quantico and Occoquan will love that!

@ goldfish:thus, this deal is brinksmanship.

I'd call it a no-brainer.

It is no wonder LC is pissed.

Why would they be pissed? They can only be pissed if they want the cake without paying for it. I have been surprised all along why they would not build the Silver Line all the way to Leesburg. You think no Leesburgers are gonna work in Tysons?

Saying no to the Silver Line can only be interpreted as wanting the benefits (jobs) of a massive investment their neighbor is making, without paying for any of the infrastructural needs to accommodate that investment of their neighbor. In other words, Fairfax is investing massively to create jobs for Loudouners (and Fairfaxians), but Loudoun is not even willing to build a way for their residents to get to those jobs.

Fairfax should make it very clear that is Loudoun says no now, it should not expect any sympathy or help in the future.

by Jasper on Jun 20, 2012 12:27 pm • link • report

I want the Silver Line to go out to Loudoun, but honestly, this all makes me very worried about having Loudoun be part of WMATA. I just don't think that they can be relied upon to pay their dues or be a productive/constructive part of the board.
I feel the same way as the others here. Loudoun is not a gamble that Metro should take. Time to call their bluff, and dust off the plans to end the line at the airport.

I am inclined to agree. My understanding is that the Dulles station is not really suited as a terminus. Is there any path within Fairfax that the Silver Line could go to after it hits the airport?

by watcher on Jun 20, 2012 12:28 pm • link • report

"@watcher: there will always be jackasses, but they neither add nor detract from the merits of this project. "

It does raise the question of whether FFX can work long term with a county in such a different cultural place. That impacts the question of A. whether its worth delaying the project for the possibility LC will sign on B. if LC does opt out, is it worth modifying project design to make it easier to extend to LC in ten years.

FFX has other transport priorities now. I, as a citizen of Fairfax, would suggest that if LC opts out, FFX and MWAA implement a design that makes the most sense for FFX and MWAA. IF LC in 2022 decides an extension is a good idea (by no means a sure thing), they will undoubtedly be in a position to pay for the extension, including undoing the results of whatever FFX and MWAA do now.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 12:31 pm • link • report

"@ AWITC:PWC origin commuters can bus or drive to Centreville

I am sure people in Dale City, Quantico and Occoquan will love that!"

And they can drive or bus commute to the outermost station on the southern FFX line - or, more likely, they can take advantage of improved VRE service which will probably have more bang for the buck.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 12:33 pm • link • report

@watcher
Is there any path within Fairfax that the Silver Line could go to after it hits the airport?

Hah they should have the Silver line just hang a left back into FFX County and head for Centreville!

by MLD on Jun 20, 2012 12:35 pm • link • report

@watcher

The station that will function as the terminus in that case (parking garages, bus transfers) would be the "Innovation" station at rte 28, the station before Dulles.

theres no logical extension within FFX, nor is there a need for one.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 12:35 pm • link • report

@Jasper: They get two stations. How more gradual do you want it? By the quarter station?

It makes better sense to leave it open-ended, so that it may by extended into LC 10-20 years later without difficulty. "Future expansion" is the normal way to handle these issues, when you direct growth but are not ready for it yet. However, the way it is designed that option seems to have been shut down.

Why would they be pissed? Because most people in LC will not use it. The silver line will not change LC into a tight and walkable city. Its suburban sprawl will persist for decades, and most people will have to continue to drive everywhere.

by goldfish on Jun 20, 2012 12:55 pm • link • report

"Because most people in LC will not use it. The silver line will not change LC into a tight and walkable city. Its suburban sprawl will persist for decades, and most people will have to continue to drive everywhere."

Well if that was the expectation out in loudoun county then their solely mistaken. I lived in fairfax, drove a lot of places and fairfax currently has 6 or so metro stops. Good thing no one has argued that two silver line stations in Loudoun will be a panacea for the issues they have with land use and zoning across the entire county.

Let's be realistic, its a 300 million investment in a type of transportation infrastructure that can be built off of. If you think that's too high a price/risk that's fine but use an actual business case than promoting hysterics about the people in those other counties who are apparently really bad off and derive pleasure in seeing Loudoun succumb to the same misery.

by drumz on Jun 20, 2012 1:30 pm • link • report

@Walker:The station that will function as the terminus in that case (parking garages, bus transfers) would be the "Innovation" station at rte 28, the station before Dulles.

theres no logical extension within FFX, nor is there a need for one.

I am curious. Can the second-to-last station have the same functionality of a terminus station (not just parking garages but railyards)?

Also, how much would the lack of Loudon stations throw off ridership projections?

Please don't misunderstand---I would like the line to be completed as planned but I am wondering about the feasibility of stopping within Fairfax until the LoCo Board decides it wants to join the 21st century.

by watcher on Jun 20, 2012 1:51 pm • link • report

@AWitC: It does raise the question of whether FFX can work long term with a county in such a different cultural place.

They do fine working with DC, with its different culture and well-known jackasses. Is LC that much worse?

by goldfish on Jun 20, 2012 1:52 pm • link • report

They do fine working with DC, with its different culture and well-known jackasses. Is LC that much worse?

I refer you once again to Mr. Delgaudio. So, yes.

by dcd on Jun 20, 2012 2:07 pm • link • report

Despite what the board member said, I don't think it's really possible to prevent the line from continuing on past Dulles any time in the future. Won't the railyard still be in the proposed location - past the Dulles station but before the 2 LC stations? The project must control that space since they're using it for staging for the construction currently.

by MLD on Jun 20, 2012 2:27 pm • link • report

"@AWitC: It does raise the question of whether FFX can work long term with a county in such a different cultural place.
They do fine working with DC, with its different culture and well-known jackasses. Is LC that much worse?"

DC at least is committed to transit and has been since metro started.

And right now, I feel a greater affinity for DC than for Loudoun. The rest of FFX is probably not with me yet, but certainly DC is growing day by day more into the political and cultural mainstream of the metro area - and the inner suburbs are getting more and more diverse and liberal.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 2:35 pm • link • report

All of this whining by Loudoun County is mostly baffling to me because they had plenty of time to decide whether they wanted to be a part of this project during the many years it spent in development. The problem is that they agreed to it, and now they want to (a) make lots of unreasonable demands for their continued commitment, and (b) complain that the deal they agreed to before doesn't allow them to back out gracefully.

As others have noted, this isn't negotiating in good faith, and moreover, it's unreasonable in any case for them to expect so much adjustment of a plan they agreed to.

by Gray on Jun 20, 2012 2:48 pm • link • report

@Jasper:

I will say that the RushMinus service is helping. The result I am observing is that part of the orange sardining crush has nicely been transferred to the blue line, exactly as I feared. The blue line is full in Crystal City now, gets to crush level in Pentagon City and squeezes to sardine level at the Pentagon. This morning it took about 5 minutes to close the doors at the Pentagon. I was getting worried they were gonna unload the train.

It is clear that vision does not drive the expansion of the metro system. Malfunction and overloading does.

I wonder about this. Since these changes are affecting people in not one, but at least two jurisdictions within VA, do you think they will succeed in bringing any more pressure upon the state to start working on a separate blue line or some other more lasting solution to the overcrowding? Would it also help that it hits transportation to and from the Pentagon hard, which the Feds presumably care about?

I mean, I'd like to think so, but maybe that's being unreasonably optimistic.

by Gray on Jun 20, 2012 2:51 pm • link • report

Those of you who predicted that Loudoun would move the line again after winning the last round were correct! Good for them. This is going to be damn expensive for them and offer little to no benefit to most Loudoun residents who are not developers.

As for extending Metro south of Dulles, no, there is nowhere else in Fairfax for Metro to go. Even if stations were created in Centreville or Chantilly, it would take so long to follow the route that it wouldn't make sense, especially at Metro's high per-mile cost. If you're going to do that, you might as well connect Amtrak/VRE to Manassas. I've been told that is impossible, but I refuse to discard the idea completely.

by movement on Jun 20, 2012 2:55 pm • link • report

"All of this whining by Loudoun County is mostly baffling to me because they had plenty of time to decide whether they wanted to be a part of this project during the many years it spent in development. "

http://www.leesburgtoday.com/news/politics/article_899e1d1c-0ab1-11e1-a2af-001cc4c03286.html

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 3:00 pm • link • report

@movement

If you're going to do that, you might as well connect Amtrak/VRE to Manassas. I've been told that is impossible, but I refuse to discard the idea completely.

Maybe I'm not following you here - but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manassas_(Amtrak_station)

by Alex B. on Jun 20, 2012 3:08 pm • link • report

@AWalkerInTheCity: I should clarify. I understand why it's happening, but I don't understand why anyone is acting like it's remotely reasonable.

by Gray on Jun 20, 2012 3:11 pm • link • report

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_General_of_Virginia's_climate_science_investigation

After a certain amount of time one gets inured to a certain degree of unreasonableness.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 3:15 pm • link • report

A lot of posts here speaking as if the current Loudoun board is representative of Loudoun County. A couple of wing-nuts and other conservative types got elected to the board in the last election cycle, in which, as I recall, the Silver Line was not a significant issue. Elections do have consequences, but I expect some of anti-transit supervisors will get voted out in the next election cycle and some Dems will be back on the board.

Meanwhile, what can MWAA do to limit the delay and damage from 4 to 5 members of the Loudoun board to completing the Silver Line as least as far as Dulles? Could they split the project into a Phase 2A and 2B for the construction bids, with 2B being the option (good for X years) to complete the line pass the Y connection to the Dulles rail yard where it runs to the median strip of the Greenway? Can they do that without having to renegotiate all the agreements for the current Phase 2 project?

That the rail yard will be on the grounds of Dulles Airport will make it pretty simple engineeringwise to truncate the line at the Y split to the rail yard.

BTW, is the current plan for Phase 2 to open all 6 new stations on the same day or might the construction plan already povide for first extending the service to Dulles and then completing the 2 stations in Loudoun?

by AlanF on Jun 20, 2012 3:22 pm • link • report

@Alex B. I assumed movement meant to build greenfield rail connecting Dulles to the NS B-Line around Gainesville and then running shuttles between Dulles and Union Station along the Amtrak/VRE route, either non-stop or with stops at the hotel clusters at Alexandria and Crystal City.

If one is just thinking of providing traveler access to the airport, that would be preferable and perhaps even cheaper.

by jim on Jun 20, 2012 3:23 pm • link • report

Jim - it's still a good 8-10 miles from the closest part of the B-line to the Dulles terminal. I don't see how 8-10 miles of cutting virgin ROW is going to be cheaper than building a Metro line in pre-existing ROW.

by Alex B. on Jun 20, 2012 3:34 pm • link • report

@AlanF: There'a clearly a funding problem with splitting phase 2 into 2A and 2B: who pays for what? Clearly Loudoun wouldn't pay for 2A. But then Fairfax wouldn't pay for 2B. Would MWAA pay for 2B? There's also an engineering/funding problem. It's easy enough to say " pretty simple engineeringwise to truncate the line at the Y split to the rail yard" but it isn't. If the line is to continue into Loudoun, then the two main tracks continue past the yard and there need to be flyover leads from the track furthest from the yard into it (like the Alexandria Yard). If the line isn't to continue, the main tracks can run straight into the yard (like the Shady Grove Yard). Flyovers cost money. Who pays for that flyover that preserves the option to continue into Loudoun?

by jim on Jun 20, 2012 3:40 pm • link • report

@Alex B.
Jim is correct, I'm talking about connecting Dulles Airport to the Manassas Amtrak/VRE station. In addition, this proposal supports increased freight through Dulles Airport because you then have rail as an option to distribute goods throughout the region via the Crescent Line (either north or south).

by movement on Jun 20, 2012 3:41 pm • link • report

Forget LC and just extend the line to Dulles. If the problem is that the last stop needs parking options then just swing it down 28 and add a station at the Air and Space museum and have options for parking there.

by Moe on Jun 20, 2012 3:55 pm • link • report

@ Gray:Since these changes are affecting people in not one, but at least two jurisdictions within VA, do you think they will succeed in bringing any more pressure upon the state to start working on a separate blue line or some other more lasting solution to the overcrowding?

Yes. For instance between Loudoun is in a separate Congressional District (VA-10). Most of the metro in VA is now in VA-8 and VA-11. The same goes for state districts. No jurisdiction has ever wanted to get rid of metro. So, the farther metro extends, the more politicians have residents (they represent all residents, not just voters or taxpayers) whining about the poor quality.

by Jasper on Jun 20, 2012 3:56 pm • link • report

" Flyovers cost money. Who pays for that flyover that preserves the option to continue into Loudoun"

Not FFX, for sure. Probably not MWAA. And I guess not USDOT.

That leaves Loudoun County to tussle it out with the Commonwealth. Good luck.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 4:00 pm • link • report

Right now poor service on metro is being used (in Loudoun) as an argument AGAINST extension. While I fully understand that a central crossing/seperate blue would be different, I have little confidence in my fellow citizens to grasp that difference. I think overloading the core in order to have a service meltdown to motivate a seperate blue line is a very dubious strategy.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 4:03 pm • link • report

"In addition, this proposal supports increased freight through Dulles Airport because you then have rail as an option to distribute goods throughout the region via the Crescent Line (either north or south"

In general high value commodities are containerized, and do not move by rail short distances, due to the need to marshall cars to get economies of scale, versus individual trucks. There is some talk of congestion motivating relatively short distance rail container movements - like a 150 miles say. NOT the 40 or 50 miles with metro DC. Note, most RRs have one intermodal (Container/trailer) transfer per metro for that reason.

Low value commodities, OTOH, almost never move by air.

The likely market for Air freight to be transferred to rail for local delivery would be close to zero.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 4:07 pm • link • report

@AWITC
Don't constrain yourself to Metro DC. Think about the rest of the Commonwealth, none of which has a decent airport. I81 is a nightmare due to the high volume of tractor trailers. The Crescent Line provides an alternative to I81 and access all the way to Norfolk from Lynchburg via the James River line.

by movement on Jun 20, 2012 4:26 pm • link • report

@Gray,

You're right. The Silver Line has been planned for years.

However, Loudon County has a new Council. And many if not most of the new Council members got elected because they promised to reduce/hold the line on spending and taxes - and take a closer look at participating in the Silver Line extension.

Elections have consequences.

by ceefer66 on Jun 20, 2012 4:38 pm • link • report

"Think about the rest of the Commonwealth, none of which has a decent airport. I81 is a nightmare due to the high volume of tractor trailers. The Crescent Line provides an alternative to I81 and access all the way to Norfolk from Lynchburg via the James River line. "

even with congestion, I doubt that Rail will be competitive with highway for Dulles to to Norfolk or Lynchburg for high value air freight commodoties. And quite probably not competitive with air freight. You seem to envision something like hourly rail service. I'm not sure you are familiar with actual rail operations, or the economies of scale involved.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Jun 20, 2012 4:50 pm • link • report

@jim, looking at the maps for Phase 2, it is all elevated tracks from the Dulles airport station to the median strip of the Greenway. Yes, it would be an engineering change, but they could keep elevated tracks to where it get close to the Greenway, cut them off and run a descending east side track to the rail yard. The west side connector stays the same. (I'm figure they would not want to depend on a single line to the rail yard). If then later on Loudoun County is back in, they just connect the elevated track from the Greenway to end of the elevated tracks. Cost more, but restarting the extension to Loudoun will cost more anyway. Yea, if Loudoun opts out, the line pass Dulles becomes a future Phase 3 and they have to reprogram a revised Phase 2 - another year or two delay in Dulles getting a rail connection to DC.

As for routing a passenger rail connection to Dulles via Manassas, people have been complaining how long the Silver Line will take to get to Dulles from downtown. The VRE express trains take 75 minutes from Union Station to Manassas (over a capacity constrained CSX line and Long Bridge). So the idea is now they are then to head north ~14 miles over a to be built from scratch commuter rail line to Dulles? That is a rather circuitous route to Dulles. I don't see that being a viable idea at all. Norfolk Southern would have no interest in a freight line to Dulles Airport. Virtually no business in it for them.

by AlanF on Jun 20, 2012 5:02 pm • link • report

A lot of posts here speaking as if the current Loudoun board is representative of Loudoun County. A couple of wing-nuts and other conservative types got elected to the board in the last election cycle,

So the wing-nuts represent portions of Loudoun County, but are not representative of those portions of Loudoun County? Got it.

by dcd on Jun 20, 2012 5:06 pm • link • report

@AlanF: Yes, if a commuter rail Dulles connection took 75+minutes, then it'd be a non-starter. But any reasonable plan would alos restore four-tracking on the RF&P, build a parallel Long Bridge and electrify the whole 50 miles. The target would be 40-odd minutes non-stop between Dulles and Union Station, 50 minutes with the two intermediate stops. That's comparable to the Metrorail time, but in a more comfortable setting with better luggage accommodation. But I'm not arguing for the commuter rail connection. The time for that was years (decades?) ago when the Silver Line was first bruited.

The cheapest way of bringing the tracks into the yard is to bring them down to grade after crossing the last internal road and running straight into the yard. No turnouts, no switches, no leads under elevated tracks. I'd add that not serving Loudoun would mean a smaller yard to store fewer trains, too.

I don't know how long it would take to reach an agreement between MWAA, Fairfax, DRPT and USDOT to revamp Phase 2 to just serve Dulles. But I think that two years is overly pessimistic. And, to the extent that RFPs are ready to be released now for construction of the Dulles station and sections east of it, those RFPs could be released as soon as the new funding agreements are in place. The yard is probably the last thing to be built anyway. So the actual delay may be minimal.

by jim on Jun 20, 2012 5:50 pm • link • report

jim, I would like to see a Long Bridge replacement (or adjacent 2 track bridge) and electrified passenger rail lines on the RF&P to Richmond and to Charlotte NC on the Southeast HSR. But I also recognize that the political support for it is not there and we will be lucky to get a 3rd track and Long Bridge upgrades for Amtrak/VRE in the next 10-20 years. Still a very circular way to Dulles that you are proposing.

Looking at the Phase 2 map sheets, the last internal road north of the Dulles station is Windsheer Rd which is only roughly about 1500' south of the Greenway. And then there are woods and an Indian Creek to cross just south of the Greenway. If they were to terminate the elevated tracks, it would likely be close to the Greenway and then run on the ground to the rail yard. I can't see them not leaving the tracks open to a future extension to a Rt. 606 station. The rail yard would likely stay the same size, but they might save on building fewer storage tracks.

On the other hand, would WMATA cut the order of new cars if the 2 stations in Loudoun were not built as part of Phase 2? Doubt it, but that could be another issue created by Loudoun opting out. If WMATA stays with current order size, they will need rail yards to store them in.

by AlanF on Jun 20, 2012 6:38 pm • link • report

@ ceefer66:Elections have consequences.

But you can not run long-term projects if after every election newly elected politicians have the opportunity to reverse track, stall and extort. Remember that their predecessors were legitimately elected representatives as well.

Democratic decisions have consequences.

by Jasper on Jun 20, 2012 9:09 pm • link • report

But you can not run long-term projects if after every election newly elected politicians have the opportunity to reverse track, stall and extort.

But I think that's rather the point, as far as reactionaries like the Tea Partiers, and radical GOP are concerned. By disrupting the ability of government to function in any kind of medium- or long-term strategic way, you vindicate your core philosophy: government doesn't work.

As PJ O'Rourke once said "Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then they get elected and prove it."

by oboe on Jun 21, 2012 10:34 am • link • report

But I'm not arguing for the commuter rail connection. The time for that was years (decades?) ago when the Silver Line was first bruited.

I'd argue it was even before that - before the W&OD was shuttered, not long after Dulles was opened:

http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=20281

by Alex B. on Jun 21, 2012 12:31 pm • link • report

It looks like the list of ultimatums might have been blown out of proportion, and that the phase two is still likely to get it's 5th vote. The read decision point appears to be coming down to financing rather than any of those other details.

http://transportationnation.org/2012/06/21/mwaa-to-loudoun-county-no-extension-on-silver-line-deadline/

by OhioExile on Jun 21, 2012 6:01 pm • link • report