The JDLand link under _And..._ does not go to JDLand

by Lucre on Aug 1, 2012 9:29 am • link • report

Only the post could have some many links in an article and none to the actual agreement.

Who is paying for this -- and does the state have to pay if projections fail to meet targets.

by charlie on Aug 1, 2012 9:31 am • link • report

RE: Atlanta-

To quote the great Roy Patterson: "It's so gratifying to leave you wallowing in the mess you've made. You're screwed. Thank you, bye."

by Bossi on Aug 1, 2012 9:33 am • link • report

I guess the next step for Atlanta would be for the city itself to start focusing on improving transit solely within the city limits (street cars/light rail and such) since they can't depend on working with the suburbs. Maybe with that they can eventually show transit's value to the outlying suburbs.

But from everything I've experienced read the city vs. suburb animosity is way worse in Atlanta than it is here. I don't think there is the groundwork between the governments (much less the individual citizens) to have any hope in something big like a tax. There needs to be more work done to just build up trust and goodwill between the city and the surrounding suburbs.

by drumz on Aug 1, 2012 9:36 am • link • report

FYI

FFX cty BOS approved Fairfax share of the Col Pike streetcar

by AWalkerInTheCity on Aug 1, 2012 9:41 am • link • report

Giant has "inferior experiential quality" to Safeway? Certainly to Harris Teeter, but notwithstanding Safeway's store investments (which are generally well-conceived but poorly executed), it's hard to see much difference in the feel of the two chains. The link emphasizes the availability/extent of prepared foods at the two chains, which is particularly interesting because the quality & value of the prepared food offerings at many suburban Walmarts far exceed what Giant and Safeway have to offer.
And while the extent of prepared food offerings and the store space dedicated to them can be an important component of the quality of store experience & how upscale it feels, the competence and surliness of the employees and the product quality of the offerings are equally important.

by Arl Fan on Aug 1, 2012 9:59 am • link • report

Any way that I-95 project can be delayed? What are some of the angles for a suit against the Commonwealth to delay or shut down that project?

I cannot think of a worse management decision for the I-95 HOV lanes. Unless you want to consider HOV-1, which would be pretty bad.

by Jack Love on Aug 1, 2012 10:05 am • link • report

Re: Atlanta TSPLOST - the figure was 7.2 billion not 7.2 million.

by Scoot on Aug 1, 2012 10:21 am • link • report

Meanwhile, DC drivers who speed in Virginia are getting a particularly heavy penalty.

So... DC leads the way by putting serious penalties on reckless driving and then goes booboo when people get convicted? How about some CM stands up and admits that he's happy dangerous drivers are being pulled off the road, like they should be.

The guy was going 84 in a 70 zone. That's 20% over the speed limit.

the Atlanta region rejected a proposal to raise $7.2 million for transportation with a 1% tax.

It makes a lot more sense like that. NoVa did the same not a decade ago. Voters clearly do not wish to pay extra for living in a city, while rural areas get their relatively more expensive infrastructure for free.

Obama declares DC a disaster area after the derecho on June 29.

Glad he's paying attention. A month after the fact.

by Jasper on Aug 1, 2012 10:22 am • link • report

Atlanta is beyond f**ked. It's a bogus argument--everybody feels everybody else should pay more of the share, so everybody suffers. Sadly, I know firsthand the results of this stupidity--property values are in free-fall, and I'm getting low-ball offers of $129,000 for an in-town 1,400 sq ft loft I need to dump; and that's despite being next to a MARTA stop in one of the hotter areas inside the Perimeter. Without a fix to Atlanta's congestion woes in sight, there will be no new businesses moving in, leaving only contraction. Atlanta is rapidly becoming the next Detroit.

by Circle Thomas on Aug 1, 2012 10:23 am • link • report

@Jasper

I do remember that NoVa rejected this tax a decade ago. Look how that has turned out? Disaster, rapidly crumbling infrastructure, and no way to pay to improve things.

Seems like the situation in Atlanta is even more desperate. They don't have the prosperity that Nova has either. They are in big trouble. Not sure they will become the next detroit, but you own property, so I would say inherently know more than me about the area :)

by Kyle-w on Aug 1, 2012 10:30 am • link • report

@ Kyle-w:I do remember that NoVa rejected this tax a decade ago. Look how that has turned out? Disaster, rapidly crumbling infrastructure, and no way to pay to improve things.

Really? I see the Silver Line being built. Even in Loudoun. I hear that the Columbia Streetcar will be built. The Spingfield Interchange has been replaced. The Woodrow Wilson bridge has been replaced. Alexandria has local and thru lanes. I-95 has been widened from the Mixing Bowl to Lorton. HOT lanes are being built. The Fairfax County Parkway, Franconia-Springfield Parkway and Prince William Parkway are being repaved. The Fairfax County Parkway has been connected. VA-28 north of I-66 has been widened. US-50 on the Fairfax/Loudoun border is being widened. Us-15 has been widened north of I-66. There are serious talks about an outer Beltway over VA-234. Fairfax is starting to think about the US-1 corridor.

Most of these projects were declared dead when voters rejected the local tax increase. Are they perfect? No. But there is no reason to think that approving that tax would have yielded better results.

I should also note that it seems that the Atlanta referendum was better worded than the NoVa one, since that gave no specifications on where the money would go.

by Jasper on Aug 1, 2012 10:47 am • link • report

RE: Virginia HOT lanes and failed Atlanta tax

Shocker. Two red states make poor decisions to solve their traffic woes. One decides to waste money and resources on a project that will only marginally improve traffic, and the biggest metro area in the other rejects a tax to pay for transit even though it also funds what they love the most: more highways. Hopefully, the South (and its wingnut politicians) will one day wake up and get a clue.

RE: Walmart hurting Giant

I seriously doubt that. Giant and Safeway are both great stores, with "experiential quality" far superior to that of Walmart. My least favorite supermarket is actually Harris Teeter which has been popping up pretty rapidly these last few years. I don't understand what (beyond the prices) is considered "luxury" I'll take Whole Foods or Wegmans any day over HT.

In Germantown Walmart and Giant are coexisting pretty well since there are three of the latter in town and they're always packed with shoppers. Not to mention Aldi (a true Walmart competitor) recently opened up a store in the same shopping complex as the Walmart and Wegmans is under construction across the street.

by King Terrapin on Aug 1, 2012 10:54 am • link • report

RE: Atlanta, The metro Atlanta result was no surprise to independent pollsters who in recent weeks predicted an overwhelming loss, fueled by citizens' distrust of government and the metro area's splintered transportation desires.

Voters interviewed Tuesday — urban transit fans and suburban drivers — confirmed the predictions

Sounds like the familiar story here in DC.

@Circle Thomas, Sadly, I know firsthand the results of this stupidity--property values are in free-fall, and I'm getting low-ball offers of $129,000 for an in-town 1,400 sq ft loft I need to dump; and that's despite being next to a MARTA stop in one of the hotter areas inside the Perimeter.

Not sure where exactly you are but I recently saw a condo in Buckhead (near St. Regis) for $150k and a recently renovated house in Midtown (near the Fox) for $154k and I thought they were indeed a steal. I don't see the connection between your low-ball offers and the regions belief that everyone else should pay for something. Those seem like the going rates down there. At least all the properties I visited.

by HogWash on Aug 1, 2012 10:54 am • link • report

If you look at NovA 10+ years out, I think the best conclusion is that a slow breakdown of infrastructure is something that can be handled by a robust local economy. I'd throw the 5 billion MWAA wasted on Dulles expansion into Jasper's list.

RLayman has a typical thourgh take on the Atlanta failure:

http://urbanplacesandspaces.blogspot.com/2012/08/failure-of-transit-roads-sales-tax.html

I think his conclusion (build a successful project and people will want to be part of it) is spot on. However, the usual political wisdom is bundle as much together to get momentum.

by charlie on Aug 1, 2012 10:56 am • link • report

My least favorite supermarket is actually Harris Teeter which has been popping up pretty rapidly these last few years. I don't understand what (beyond the prices) is considered "luxury" I'll take Whole Foods or Wegmans any day over HT.

Really? Harris Teeter is a cross between Whole Foods and Giant/Safeway. I like it alot...as well as Giant, Whole Foods, and Wegmans. I go to each for different reasons but realize that I can't get to them all the time. Well can't get to Wegman's and Harris Teeter all the time.

by HogWash on Aug 1, 2012 10:58 am • link • report

@drumz:

But from everything I've experienced read the city vs. suburb animosity is way worse in Atlanta than it is here. I don't think there is the groundwork between the governments (much less the individual citizens) to have any hope in something big like a tax. There needs to be more work done to just build up trust and goodwill between the city and the surrounding suburbs.

This is definitely true, but there are even more horrible layers there. Like that the state doesn't fund MARTA at all, making it the only such transit authority in the nation. And the survey mentioned in the article that found that 42% of respondents thought new transit would increase crime.

by Gray on Aug 1, 2012 10:59 am • link • report

The JDland link has been fixed, and the Atlanta figure has been changed to billions.

by Dan Malouff on Aug 1, 2012 10:59 am • link • report

@HogWash

Not sure where exactly you are but I recently saw a condo in Buckhead (near St. Regis) for $150k and a recently renovated house in Midtown (near the Fox) for $154k and I thought they were indeed a steal. I don't see the connection between your low-ball offers and the regions belief that everyone else should pay for something. Those seem like the going rates down there. At least all the properties I visited.

Well, you just made my point--those properties would have sold for double those prices three years ago, and 50% more beyond that three years before that.

For those who don't know Atlanta, Buckhead would be the equivalent of Georgetown; Midtown is Logan Circle. So, imagine a house in Logan Circle going for $154K.

When I bought my loft, I paid $224K, and at the time, it was the lowest resale in the building for a unit that size ever. Now, it's worth half that. If you go out into the exurbs, you'll see three-bedroom houses for as little as $10,000, and still nobody is buying.

On my Facebook Wall, I'm seeing people I know in Atlanta are split--people Outside the Perimeter think people in-town should pay for transit "because it only benefits people in town," and those ITP think that only people outside should pay because it's their fault for living farther away. It's totally lose-lose, of course, because everyone is watching a stagnant economy and free-falling home prices.

For more perspective, I was in Detroit this past weekend, and the prices for in-town real estate there are now almost on par with Atlanta's, and continue to rise.

by Circle Thomas on Aug 1, 2012 11:16 am • link • report

@jasper

I dunno. first off Pike rail ain't financed yet. I95 HOT lanes, to make sense, needed to go to Seminary (for the Mark center) and thus to pentagon. If there was more money, maybe Arl Co could have been bought off with major transit improvements (sorely needed). Silver line is going in, but financing will still be touch and go (what if we DONT get enough DTR revenue?) The beltway hot lanes - I personally hope we get a LOT of HOV (and bus) usage vs SOV - but if we do, VDOT needs to pony up $$$ - where does that come from?

And its nice they are looking at rte 1, but to do heavy rail there will take a new potomac crossing - wheres the $$ for that coming from? and then for building the extended yellow and/or blue line, and the extended orange line. Heck, there were 2 votes on the FFX BOS against approving Pike Rail. Is there even stomach in FFX for Light Rail lines to feed Tysons? Is major expansion of VRE (I mean frequency, not new lines) going to happen at a rapid pace?

yeah, highways are getting built. Cause the Commonwealth prioritizes them, and cause they can be toll financed (I HOPE that works out)

by AWalkerInTheCity on Aug 1, 2012 11:19 am • link • report

@ AWalkerInTheCity:yeah, highways are getting built. Cause the Commonwealth prioritizes them, and cause they can be toll financed

My point was that plenty of infrastructure has been built despite the rejected tax for Northern Virginians, supposedly killing the future. Not that the money could not have been spent better - it always can. But seeing as that referendum did not specify at all what the money would have been spent on, there is no way of knowing that it would have been spent on. The thing we do know is that we got what we got without an extra tax.

As for tolling, only the HOT lanes will be tolled. None of the other things I mentioned are tolled.

I think that Northern Virginians and Atlantans (?) rightly rejected vaguely worded tax increases for poorly defined benefits. It is not right to make certain part of a state pay extra for being a dense center of jobs. NoVa pays plenty to maintain the rest of VA, they should not be taxed extra for that privilege. I assume the same goes for Atlanta, although I'm happy to be corrected.

[You see, not-commenters? I invite others to provide arguments so I can change my gut-check based assumption on their knowledge. That's how good commenting works.]

by Jasper on Aug 1, 2012 11:43 am • link • report

I grew up in Oakton. I am familiar with the projects you mentioned. In this same time-frame though, the population of Nova has increased by what, 50%? 75%?

Yes, there are some shiny new roads/overpasses etc, but the overall quality of road and service rates in Northern Virginia, in my opinion, has declined substantially over the last decade. Do you really think the area has invested as much as needed in infrastructure? Are you happy with the roads you drive on on a daily basis?

by Kyle-w on Aug 1, 2012 11:47 am • link • report

Metro-Atlanta voters didn't just reject the transportation tax..it was SOUNDLY rejected with 63% of the vote. This reflects something we should be mindful of here...suburban voters do not trust the City of Atlanta government as it has been a cesspool of corruption for decades. Plus, the daily newspaper, the once respected JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION has lost so much of its readership in the past two decades being way out of touch with Atlanta area voters...there is no longer a credible source for advocacy on such issues. The voters made the right choice. Atlanta is also mired in one of the worst real estate downturns in the country which has nothing to do with transportation. A 1% tax simply meant more graft...it did not mean better transportation or economic development.

by Pelham1861 on Aug 1, 2012 11:48 am • link • report

@Jasper:

I think that Northern Virginians and Atlantans (?) rightly rejected vaguely worded tax increases for poorly defined benefits.

Except that Atlanta's referendum spelled projects out pretty clearly. Of course, as the Streetsblog post argues, they may have done a horrible job of selling those specifics to voters, or even ignored many of the transit-related specifics in an attempt to make it more palatable. But it wasn't vague.

It is not right to make certain part of a state pay extra for being a dense center of jobs. NoVa pays plenty to maintain the rest of VA, they should not be taxed extra for that privilege. I assume the same goes for Atlanta, although I'm happy to be corrected.

This is definitely the dynamic in Atlanta: the rest of the state has no desire to pay for anything in Atlanta. Much (though not all) of this is racially based, but on top of that there's also a general anti-urban sentiment in the legislature, which is unfairly weighted against Atlanta.

But I'm failing to see how a refusal by Atlanta voters to pay for infrastructure they need will somehow force other Georgians to pay for that infrastructure. They've been perfectly willing not to pay for any of it up until now. Why would they change their minds?

by Gray on Aug 1, 2012 11:51 am • link • report

@Jasper

Totally agree, Nova gets absolutely screwed by Rova. However, that is what it is, it isn't going to change, unless Nova contrinues to grow quickly, and can somehow get some sort of majority/plurality in VA state government. This takes electing the right kind of people who want to make these choices, which doesn't seem like it is happening.

Just because Nova gets screwed by Rova, doesn't seem to me like a good reason to screw the are further by refusing needed taxes to make needed investments. Somewhat seems to be cutting off the nose to spite the face.

by Kyle-w on Aug 1, 2012 12:04 pm • link • report

I've heard from a lot of my suburban friends that the Harris Teeters in the 'burbs are nowhere near as nice as the ones in the city. Don't know why that is, or what the logic of decisions that lead to that are (greater prosperity in the city demands a better shopping experience to compete effectively? maybe?), but it's a pretty universal response by suburbanites to my love of HT.

For my money, it's HT, then Giant, and I'll only set foot in a Safeway if it's an emergency. HT has great store brands at a reasonable price, friendly staff, and nice-looking and -feeling stores. Giant isn't as nice of an experience, but their prices are low enough to compensate for that, and their service is passable. Safeway is, by and large, populated with surly employees, inept management, and overpriced low-quality goods. Whole Foods is too far away from me to be a reasonable choice, and even then I only ever bought bulk foods or specialty items I couldn't find elsewhere when I've lived close to one, they were always too expensive otherwise, IMHO. I also buy bulk and specialty goods at Yes, which has always been my go-to for that purpose, but has really stepped up its game lately and feels less like some uppity specialty store these days.

It's really too bad that Safeway's DC or East Coast management doesn't get their act together. I've had wonderful experiences at Safeways elsewhere in the country. IMO more quality options is always a good thing.

by Ms. D on Aug 1, 2012 12:05 pm • link • report

Should I start calling this blog Greater Greater Atlanta now?

by Tyler on Aug 1, 2012 12:14 pm • link • report

I think the drop in home values in Atlanta should be partly (or perhaps mostly) attributed to the economic downturn. But the region's transportation woes definitely don't help, especially for intown properties that are supposed to be relatively insulated against the downturn.

As someone who lived in Atlanta for a while, I can say that living near a Marta stop does not have the same cache at all compared to living near a DC Metro stop. I know people who live a block or two from Marta stops but still drive to work because their offices are not accessible by Marta. That's what happens when the state and local government refuses to properly fund the transit system.

The TSPLOST was by no means perfect, but it was probably this generation's only shot at comprehensive transportation reform for the region. People who chose not to vote for it because it did not dedicate enough to transit made a big mistake. From here on out it seems like the region will have to solve its problems one tiny project at a time.

by Scoot on Aug 1, 2012 12:15 pm • link • report

@ Kyle-w:the overall quality of road and service rates in Northern Virginia, in my opinion, has declined substantially over the last decade. Do you really think the area has invested as much as needed in infrastructure? Are you happy with the roads you drive on on a daily basis?

No. Is anyone anywhere? Can you show reasonably that people would be happy if they had approved that referendum and accepted the tax?

@ Gray:This is definitely the dynamic in AtlantaVirginia: the rest of the state has no desire to pay for anything in AtlantaVirginia. Much (though not all) of this is racially based, but on top of that there's also a general anti-urban sentiment in the legislature, which is unfairly weighted against AtlantaVirginia.

Sounds about right...

But I'm failing to see how a refusal by Atlanta voters to pay for infrastructure they need will somehow force other Georgians to pay for that infrastructure. They've been perfectly willing not to pay for any of it up until now. Why would they change their minds?

That's what the message was for the VA referendum as well.

My problem with such referendums is the blackmail aspect. Plus the fear that once the tax is established, it will never go away. And furthermore, that the rest of the state won't straight reduce the money that NoVa/Atlanta is rightfully due with the amount of the tax. In other words, if you pass a tax like that, the rest of the state will laugh and pocket that money themselves anyway.

@ kyle-w:it isn't going to change, unless Nova contrinues to grow quickly, and can somehow get some sort of majority/plurality in VA state government. This takes electing the right kind of people who want to make these choices, which doesn't seem like it is happening.

It is an absolute failure of the NoVa delegation in Richmond that they are so self-centered that they never collaborate with the other urban representatives from the state from Hampton Roads, Richmond and Charlottesville.

They are so frustrated that they never get anything that they forget they are in a state-legislature and need to make laws that benefit the entire state instead of only their backyard. Specifically that means not only lobbying for the Columbia Pike streetcar and metro in NoVA, but for all transit projects in the state, including the Tide, BRT in and HSR to Richmond (and the Tidewater) and opposition to the C'Ville bypass. That's how you get stuff done.

by Jasper on Aug 1, 2012 12:25 pm • link • report

Sorry, forgot two "Northern"s.

@ Gray:This is definitely the dynamic in AtlantaVirginia: the rest of the state has no desire to pay for anything in AtlantaNorthern Virginia. Much (though not all) of this is racially based, but on top of that there's also a general anti-urban sentiment in the legislature, which is unfairly weighted against AtlantaNorthern Virginia.

Sounds about right...

by Jasper on Aug 1, 2012 12:27 pm • link • report

@Jasper

Haha very true.

by King Terrapin on Aug 1, 2012 12:33 pm • link • report

@Jasper: Except that, believe it or not, it's much worse in Atlanta. At least Virginia contributes some money to transit in NoVa. Georgia absolutely refuses to.

Without additional local revenues, NoVa has still gotten a lot of roads built because the state government seems glad to build those. The Silver Line, on the other hand, was funded in a gimmicky way that is unlikely to be repeated. Sure, maybe it would have just sucked up all the tax revenue instead of being built off of toll increases on the DTR. But regardless, I'm not seeing any obvious revenue sources for any transit building in NoVa beyond the small amount they contribute now. Is there something I'm missing?

And yes, I think the GA situation will be similar--but worse, given that the state hasn't even contributed anything like the small amount NoVa gets for transit projects.

by Gray on Aug 1, 2012 12:42 pm • link • report

@Scoot

As someone who lived in Atlanta for a while, I can say that living near a Marta stop does not have the same cache at all compared to living near a DC Metro stop. I know people who live a block or two from Marta stops but still drive to work because their offices are not accessible by Marta. That's what happens when the state and local government refuses to properly fund the transit system.

I admit, I was one of those people. My home there is next to the Candler Park station; my office was next to Medical Center. But because of the long wait times between trains (upwards of 20 minutes on weekends, and 10 on weekdays) plus the general slow speed of the system, I generally chose to drive since there was no time savings with transit.

Atlanta's transportation problems are compounded by the fact there's an utter lack of urban planning, and that the individual communities (Midtown, Buckhead, Kirkwood, etc.) fight amongst each other even within counties for development and services.

The band-aid approach isn't going to even begin to fix Atlanta's worst-in-nation traffic. Without a proper infrastructure, the city simply isn't a desirable place to live, and as a result, will have trouble attracting talent and new business. Anyone who thinks the city's stagnant economy isn't directly tied to its infrastructure issues has simply not spent enough time there.

by Circle Thomas on Aug 1, 2012 12:44 pm • link • report

@Ms. D: I've heard from a lot of my suburban friends that the Harris Teeters in the 'burbs are nowhere near as nice as the ones in the city.

I was told that HT used its Shirlington and Crystal City / Potomac Yards locations to learn lessons about operating smaller-footprint stores that were then incorporated into stores that opened later, including in DC (the Tysons Corner location is also very nice). When the Potomac Yards location reopens, it will be interesting to see if they redesign it to reflect the improvements in store concept.

by Arl Fan on Aug 1, 2012 12:51 pm • link • report

@Circle, Well, you just made my point--those properties would have sold for double those prices three years ago, and 50% more beyond that three years before that.

Really? When i looked at a unit (11th floor) in a new highrise they were building near the Grand Hyatt several years ago, they were asking for 210k. Are you sure the drops in rates aren't more the result of the economy than anything else. I had a friend who, in 2007, purchased a SFH in Decatur (I believe off of ponce de leon) for 310k and it is a bricked front, 4br, 3 1/2 bath, corner lot w/a pool. The real estate market has never been a seller's paradise down there like it is in places like DC.

by HogWash on Aug 1, 2012 12:59 pm • link • report

I've heard from a lot of my suburban friends that the Harris Teeters in the 'burbs are nowhere near as nice as the ones in the city. Don't know why that is, or what the logic of decisions that lead to that are (greater prosperity in the city demands a better shopping experience to compete effectively? maybe?), but it's a pretty universal response by suburbanites to my love of HT.

I'm not sure it's that HT is objectively nicer in the city - it may be the gap between HT and Giant/Safeway in the city is much greater (at least among those to which I've been in the past 2 years or so). The Giants/Safeways in the burbs are MUCH nicer than those in the city, which makes it seems like HT is just more expensive for little additional value. In the city, it seems like there's a clear value-added component for HT that justifies the higher prices.

by dcd on Aug 1, 2012 1:09 pm • link • report

I read this blog almost everyday but rarely comment. I lived in Atlanta from 2006-2010 and @Scoot 100% hit the nail on the head. I want to play devil's advocate on a couple topics.

Just to add a little color to the housing market there, the low values there very much have to do with the drove of new buyers from 2004/5-2007/8 who bought with little to nothing down. These buyers also had ARMs, Interest Only loans, etc. Crazy. So when prices dropped due to the economy, people fled those houses through foreclosures and short sales since they had so little vested. I may be in the minority but I see so much opportunity there. If you have solid credit with a stable job, you can a scoop a nice 1/1 condo (or more) in a good neighborhood for under $30-60K. It makes me want to move back, buy another property, knock out that mortgage in 2-5 years and re-route my allocated housing money to more saving/pleasure and retire sooner.

Also, as far as employers relocating there, the transportation scenario definitely gives cause for concern but I can name a few large companies that JUST relocated to Atlanta in the last 2-3 years.

Watching the referendum fail yesterday was so disheartening because I see the potential for transit there to move closer to what we have here in DC. However, growing congestion woes and gas prices WILL force change. Just like in DC or any other major city, people that live super far out will eventually be forced to live closer to work or find work closer to home. Change will come.

by Former Atlantan. Current Washingtonian. on Aug 1, 2012 1:26 pm • link • report

If you go out into the exurbs, you'll see three-bedroom houses for as little as $10,000

$10,000 for a 3BR in the Atlanta exurbs?!?* New Detroit (dead or alive, you're coming with me!)/real estate downturn or not, I kinda want to just buy one of those, live in it for a few years, and then throw a House Party-level house party to destroy it.

*I feel like there was one 0 missing there, but the concept isn't nearly as fun if it's actually 100 Gs.

by worthing on Aug 1, 2012 1:27 pm • link • report

Yes, change will definitely come, and unfortunately it will be a lot more painful than 1 cent on the dollar.

by Scoot on Aug 1, 2012 1:46 pm • link • report

Atlanta's tax would have compounded a regressive tax system that taxes food at the same rate as everything else. It was opposed by a variety of groups including Sierra Club. the scheme did pass in several other regions of the state, though. MARTA is handicapped by years of poor maintenance and a bizarre lack of coordination between the N/S and E/W lines. I used it mostly for trips to the airport or downtown--still it was an amenity i wanted with seemed a little odd to my realtor. The bus system actually isn't bad in terms of on-time performance, but the routing often leaves much to be desired.

There is a lot of city v. suburb animosity, but intown Atlanta areas including some inner suburban areas are probably more transit friendly than other places. Atlanta's economy has relied a lot on speculative enterprises like real estate and the bubble has deflated over a longer period of time and to a greater degree than elsewhere. The outer suburbs began to be hit about 10 years ago. The inner areas more recently. Hoses near me (not far from the Candler Park poster) are going for a fraction of their 2006 prices, partly because of bankruptcies.

Atlanta is economically and environmentally unsustatinable--the traffic is not amenable to easy fixes. the water system is totally inadequate for the area and suffers from an odd combo of droughts in a humid place. there have been significant job losses from downsizing, death of the IT sector, loss of auto plants, continued downsizing by Turner, Delta's decline (though the merger with NWA mitigated this somewhat), etc. It's a place that's always been built on hype and enough people have lived there/been there to know it's mostly bs. The farsighted Betline program of parks, etc. has gone forward on foundation money, but other than that bright spot, the city and its suburbs are finally going to have deal with consequences of grifter pro-business politicians, lousy planning, and a weak civic sector.

by Rich on Aug 1, 2012 1:49 pm • link • report

Walmart will take a bigger bite from Shopper's than other chains. They've greatly hurt Food Lion and helped drive Winn-Dixie into bankruptcy. The experience of Wal-Mart is pretty awful. They have weak perishables programs and what often happens is that people cherry pick the dry groceries at WM and go elsewhere for meat, produce, deli, etc. which are more profitable. Their natural constituency is people without other options. Reasonably well managed chains like Publix in Florida have done well against WM. Giant and Safeway have fairly uneven operations may lose overall volume, but may retain the fresh foods. WM's pattern is to start out much cheaper but inch up on most items--the same is true of the non-foods. The LA Times did a piece several years ago and found that only 2% of the items surveyed were cheaper at WM. they pick frequently shopped items to exaggerate the amount of savings one might get.

HT is a big disappointment--the stores seem less impressive than a few years ago in DC and in the 'burbs. I don't understand how they stay in business given their ridiculous pricing.

by Rich on Aug 1, 2012 1:55 pm • link • report

"So... DC leads the way by putting serious penalties on reckless driving and then goes booboo when people get convicted? How about some CM stands up and admits that he's happy dangerous drivers are being pulled off the road, like they should be."

Except that the police are lying. Back in December I was coming back with family through the same stretch of highway, in a car with DC tags. The driver, who has never had a speeding ticket in their lives, was going the limit. I wasn't watching the speedometer myself, but two other relatives were and saw it at 70. We were pulled over for going in the high 80's, which I know we weren't (if you're going that fast, you're zipping past cars, not being passed by them). The police officer didn't seem bothered at all, merely told us to pay the fine and then left. Not exactly how you'd expect them to act if they really thought you were going close to 90 mph.

We thought it was suspicious, but that maybe the radar gun had hit another car or something. A stretch, but we wanted to give the officer the benefit of the doubt. Now after reading this article, and hearing that the same thing has been happening to others, I'm sure they're preying on DC drivers.

by Chatham on Aug 1, 2012 2:07 pm • link • report

@ Rich:HT is a big disappointment--....I don't understand how they stay in business given their ridiculous pricing.

Because they sell a different product than Walmart. HT, as well as Wegmans and WholeFoods sell the experience of good food, whereas Walmart and Shoppers sell cheap food. Giant and Safeway try to sell an experience at a cheap price and fail miserably at doing so, but survive because they are often the only brand around and are interchangeable with each other.

[I live between three Giants and one Shoppers.]

by Jasper on Aug 1, 2012 2:22 pm • link • report

@Hogwash

Really? When i looked at a unit (11th floor) in a new highrise they were building near the Grand Hyatt several years ago, they were asking for 210k. Are you sure the drops in rates aren't more the result of the economy than anything else. I had a friend who, in 2007, purchased a SFH in Decatur (I believe off of ponce de leon) for 310k and it is a bricked front, 4br, 3 1/2 bath, corner lot w/a pool. The real estate market has never been a seller's paradise down there like it is in places like DC.

Units in neighboring buildings in that area would have been running $300 - $400K about five to six years back. And now that unit is probably only salable at $100K--meaning that even a person who bought "low" is completely underwater. And while the $400K prices were ridiculously high, the current values are just as crazy. Similarly, your friend's house in Decatur is probably only worth half of what it once was.

While some businesses have relocated to the Atlanta metro area in the past few years (a Metro area that spans roughly 60 miles north-south), this transit vote is going to kill further expansion. Atlanta is going to become an object lesson for urban planners in years ahead on the boom and bust of a major metropolitan hub.

by Circle Thomas on Aug 1, 2012 2:48 pm • link • report

"city and its suburbs are finally going to have deal with consequences of grifter pro-business politicians, lousy planning, and a weak civic sector."

Yep, sounds just like Fairfax County.

by charlie on Aug 1, 2012 2:50 pm • link • report

@Gray
"This is definitely true, but there are even more "This is definitely true, but there are even more horrible layers therelayers there. Like that the state doesn't fund MARTA at all, making it the only such transit authority in the nation. And the survey mentioned in the article that found that 42% of respondents thought new transit would increase crime."
----

As someone who lived for 3 years in Metro Atlanta I can agree with you.

That said, I learned that race is a significant factor is the resistance to transit in the majority-white northern and western suburban counties. Cobb County (where I rented until I learned Newt Gingrisgc was my Congressman) opted out of the original MARTA plan and has successfully resisted attempts to push MARTA rail out to Marietta. Then again, this is a County that was named after Ty Cobb, probably the most notorious racist in baseball, in addition to being the home of Lester Maddox.

Then there's North Fulton. Although in the same county as Atlanta, northern Fulton County resisted the GA 400 Sandy Springextension for years. It took the push from the Dunwoodie/Perimeter business community in the face of the upcoming Olympics to finally get it done.

Atlanta is a region of glaring dichotomies. What is considered a black mecca is in the middle of a racist hotbed. An oasis of enlightenment and prosperity in the midst of red state ignorance and mypopia. When I lived in Atlanta, I felt like I lived on an island. This vote doesn't surprise me.

by ceefer66 on Aug 1, 2012 2:51 pm • link • report

@ceefer

Cobb County was not named for Ty Cobb, it was named for Thomas Cobb, a congressman from Georgia in the early 1800s.

by Scoot on Aug 1, 2012 3:10 pm • link • report

@Scoot,

When I lived there, I was told it was named for Ty Cobb.

Thanks for the correction.

by ceefer66 on Aug 1, 2012 3:43 pm • link • report

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobb_County,_Georgia

by Jasper on Aug 1, 2012 4:21 pm • link • report

@Charlie: Most of NovA reminds me of being in Atlanta. After 7 years in ATL, I need a really good reason to cross the Potomac, esp. if it means driving.

by Rich on Aug 1, 2012 4:41 pm • link • report

Atlanta is a joke. Let'em choke on their own selfishness.

by NFA on Aug 1, 2012 5:20 pm • link • report

I hope I am not too late to get feedback, but I would like to know what the former Atlantans here thought about the Beltline rail project. (I thought it sounded great.)

by watcher on Aug 1, 2012 8:01 pm • link • report

@ Arl Fan, I can see how that might work. When I speak of my "suburban" friends I'm not really talking about people who live in close-in, even somewhat transit accessible areas. I have been asked, while staring at my smartphone for directions to where *I'm* going, for directions to the HT in these areas. It makes sense that they'd try out the smaller-format stores in slightly cheaper areas.

@dcd and Rich, I just don't get where you're coming from with the higher pricing. The Hill Is Home found them to be competitively priced with Safeway for national brands and common goods. Shopping local, sales, and store-brand, I find them to be CHEAPER than Safeway and Giant for *COMPARABLE* products. Okay, fine, neither Giant or Safeway carry a store-brand organic, whole wheat pasta. But their crap white GMO store-brand pasta is nearly the same $1.50/lb. that I pay for the good stuff at HT when it's on sale. Same goes for good produce, meats, etc. Plus, if I need something, I don't have to beg for help (Giant's customer service is generally respectable, but Safeway's is abysmal, while HT's is above-and-beyond good...like I'll dig that out of the pile of boxes I'm stocking, I'll walk you to what you need rather than just pointing you there, I'll find it in the back room, and if all that fails I'll apologize profusely and give you a rain check good). I've lived in a lot of places, and while I do agree that customer service in DC usually leaves something to be desired, I also think that HT in DC does a bang-up job compared to ANY other place I've shopped ANYWHERE in the country.

by Ms. D on Aug 3, 2012 2:31 am • link • report