Re: Klingle Trail

Taking bets: how long after construction finishes until some vigilante resident starts driving their car down the trail?

by MLD on Aug 21, 2012 8:58 am • link • report

Wow, Portland builds apartment buildings with out parking?
Of course, becasue if you're young and can live without a car, who wouldn't want all that extra cash you'd have to shell out to keep a car. I hope planning officials in MOCO are listening.

by Thayer-D on Aug 21, 2012 9:05 am • link • report

If anyone wants to see how the other side is thinking (re car free living and apartments without parking), just take a look at the Tenleytown Yahoo Group.

by William on Aug 21, 2012 9:20 am • link • report

Nice to know that in Portland they have the same arguments we do.

Personally I like the crowing about how apartments (where people would presumably live) take away from the residential aspect of a neighborhood. And that since people already drive anyway then its obvious that we should mandate car storage for every potential new resident.

Also RE: ride-on crash, "the bus" drove into the house or "the bus driver"?

by drumz on Aug 21, 2012 9:24 am • link • report

@MLD,
A better question is will it happen. Maybe it does, but it won't in this time frame. The cost of the trail has "shocker" increased in cost to 4 or 5 times over the original cost used to justify it over the road.

Cheh herself has admitted she has no idea where the money will come from or how to get it.

Considering H street is what, 4 years behind schedule and that had the entire city and a budget behind it, I don't think what will become the nations most expensive bike trail (foot per foot) will be moving along very soon.

by Trail on Aug 21, 2012 9:26 am • link • report

Thayer wrote:

Wow, Portland builds apartment buildings with out parking?

Amazing, isn't it? And the sun rose this morning! Apocalypse averted! The parking rapture has been put off for another day!

Here's the money quote from the article:

“The cost of parking would make building this type of project on this location unaffordable,” Mullens says.

Mullens calls the difference “tremendous.”

“Parking a site is the difference between a $750 apartment and a $1,200 apartment. Or, the difference between apartments and condos,” he says.

by Alex B. on Aug 21, 2012 9:34 am • link • report

Re: the Carnegie Mellon program.

While I agree that many US cities are architectural wastelands, particularly when compared to Europe, it seems a bit unfair to sort of judgmentally say that all American cities look alike, compared to those totes amazeballs Euro cities. They compared multiple cities within the US, but not multiple cities within France, for instance, so it's not exactly a comprehensive comparison. And Paris isn't even a good example, since it was basically razed and rebuilt by Napoleon III and Baron Haussmann to a somewhat exacting set of specifications, so of course it's "coherent" and architecturally distinct from cities like Prague and other cities within France. But if you go to cities in France other than Paris and within the same general region, they look pretty damn similar to each other and I doubt people would be able to easily tell them apart.

by MM on Aug 21, 2012 10:17 am • link • report

Re: Laurel Mall.

Good riddance! The place was an eyesore and crime magnet for years.

by ceefer66 on Aug 21, 2012 10:31 am • link • report

@Trail, the portion of the estimated cost that is greatest for the Klingle project is the sewer reconstruction. The portion that is smallest is the actual building of a trail.

Even w/o building a trail the sewer reconstruction has to happen and the project's estimated cost would be very close to what it is with trail construction included.

Technically there are separate budgets needed for the project: public works & WASA, and ddot. The former portion of the cost is the greatest to deal with the broken sewer and mismanaged hydrology.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 10:39 am • link • report

Good riddance! The place was an eyesore and crime magnet for years.

And yet it had all of the hallmarks of something that should have been an economic success: plenty of parking, accessible from a major roadway, lack of public transit access to prevent hoodlums from coming. What went wrong?

by JustMe on Aug 21, 2012 10:54 am • link • report

Tina,

Well, that's somewhat true. The actual trail cost has increased 150 percant the infrastructure costs have tripled because the base infrastructure including sewers, retaining walls and a road base have to accommodates emergency and maintenance vehicles...the same scope and cost of which would be the same for the road.

Point being, the city doesn't have the money for it, and no plan to get it. I would also like to point out the outrage when the city was spending 500k on dog parks, spending 11 million to build the world most expensive 3 qtr mile bike path isnt going to exactly be easy.

by Trail on Aug 21, 2012 11:09 am • link • report

@Trail

Nor should they. What an absurd waste of money. I am not some conservative, but I can think of a lot of better ways I would like to see 11 million spent than on this trail.

by Kyle-w on Aug 21, 2012 11:13 am • link • report

"And yet it had all of the hallmarks of something that should have been an economic success: plenty of parking, accessible from a major roadway, lack of public transit access to prevent hoodlums from coming. What went wrong?"
---------
It had (bus) transit.

I'm no expert, but I think Laurel Mall attracted too many of the wrong people. "Thug life" and shoplifting eventually chase quality retail and shoppers away.

by ceefer66 on Aug 21, 2012 11:13 am • link • report

How much would it cost to simply re-pave Klingle Road, paint a bike lane, add a sidewalk, open it to all users, and call it day?

by ceefer66 on Aug 21, 2012 11:16 am • link • report

Nice to see that another dead mall is being buried at last.

Springfield Mall closed all of its stores except its three anchors at the beginning of July.

Landmark Mall is still floating belly-up. On its website, the "store of the month" is Macy's, and their "What's Happening At Landmark" page is completely blank.

Lakeforest Mall is bleeding its owners dry, but there doesn't seem to be any plan to resolve the situation.

And of course White Flint only has a year or two of life left.

by Frank IBC on Aug 21, 2012 11:18 am • link • report

ceefer66 wrote: "Laurel Mall attracted too many of the wrong people. 'Thug life' and shoplifting eventually chase quality retail and shoppers away."

I'm fascinated by how the reputation of a large enclosed mall can change seemingly overnight, much more so than any other kind of shopping area. Perhaps it relates to a sensation of being trapped with nowhere to run if things go bad.

by Frank IBC on Aug 21, 2012 11:21 am • link • report

Good thing nothing held up a decision being made on Klingle road for a long time that would naturally push up the cost of whatever was built.

My sister enrolled at Virginia Tech wasn't even born the last time anyone went down klingle road. Now bellyaching about the cost of this "most expensive trail ever" won't change the city's mind about something they decided years ago.

by drumz on Aug 21, 2012 11:43 am • link • report

Well, that's somewhat true.

No. It's 100% true.

The actual trail cost has increased 150 percant

Which two estimates are you using?

the infrastructure costs have tripled because the base infrastructure including sewers, retaining walls and a road base have to accommodates emergency and maintenance vehicles...the same scope and cost of which would be the same for the road.

True. But rebuilding the road on top of all of that would cost more than building a trail. And it would cost more to maintain. And it would cause more environmental damage. And it isn't what a majority of DC residents want. But, your statement is true.

the city doesn't have the money for it,

Uhhh, yeah they do. The hold up was due to the lack of a new Federal Tranportation Bill. But that just passed, which is where the money will come from.

spending 11 million to build the world most expensive 3 qtr mile bike path isnt going to exactly be easy.

Luckily, that isn't what they're doing. They're spending 7 million dollars to repair the stream, reubilt the sewar and drainage pipes, improve utilities, build an access road for emergency and maintence vehicles, build a retaining wall, and add landscaping. They're spending 1 million to build a bike trail that will be pretty normal cost for the type/location.

When you say things like this - throwing all this work under the heading of "bike trail" when you know full well that it is much more than that, you only undermine your own credibility and weaken your position. If you feel like you have to deceive people to make your case, then you must not think you have a very strong case.

by David C on Aug 21, 2012 11:49 am • link • report

@Trail @ceefer66 @Kyle-W,
The largest cost of the project is in the creek bed restoration and sewer reconstruction. Those things must be dealt with, whether or not a trail is constructed. If one is concerned about cost, i find it illogical one would think building and maintaining a road would cost less then either building and maintaining a permeable surface trail (a road would be impermeable) or just restoring the creek bed and sewer, which, again, must be done in any case. If one is concerned about cost, this latter action is what one would logically want.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 11:59 am • link • report

...^...and what @David C. said.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 12:04 pm • link • report

@ceefer66, the right-of-way on which DC is allowed to work is not wide enough for both a two-lane road and bikelane, let alone the addition of a sidewalk.

At one point in this process an alternative plan option was a compromise of a one-lane road (either westbound one-way or eastbound one-way) and a mutli-use (hike/biker) trail. There is enough room in the right-of-way for that. However those who favored a road voted down this alternative compromise plan. Now we have plans for a multiuse commuter and recreation trail that connects to the trail at Beach Drive on one end and to the marked bike route on Woodley Rd. on the other. The plan creates non-motorized transportation connectivity.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 12:40 pm • link • report

@Klingle Rd: What will happen if they do not restore the creek and sewerage?

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 12:42 pm • link • report

Where are people getting the price breakdowns for the bike trail? Could someone link them?

I see people claiming "original" this and "revised" that?

Thanks

by Daneer on Aug 21, 2012 12:54 pm • link • report

@Goldfish-big EPA fines. Plus its the civilized and right thing to do -unless one doesn't mind overflow of raw sewage into Klingle Creek>Rock Creek> Potomac River> Chesapeake Bay> Atlantic Ocean beaches including OC. In addition to that the mismanagement/neglect of the hydrology has created a severe erosion problem that threatens multi-millions of dollars in private property.

@Daneer - Start with "klingletrail.com" This is all public record material and should be pretty easy to find on an internet search.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 1:04 pm • link • report

@Tina: What raw sewage? I thought the sanitary system was connected via pipes. Surely they are not depending on the Klingle Creek to carry sewage to DC Water.

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 1:09 pm • link • report

It's kind of interesting to track what's happened to former Woodward & Lothrop and Hecht's sites:

Woodies

-Downtown - replaced by H&M and other tenants
-Chevy Chase - replaced by Hecht's; building demolished 2007 and replaced by Bloomingdales
-Montgomery Mall - replaced by JCPenney, then replaced by Hechts home store on upper level and shops on lower level; Hechts home store replaced by Macy's home store
-Lakeforest - replaced by Lord & Taylor
-Iverson Mall - replaced by "discount department store"
-Landover Mall - mall later demolished
-Prince Georges Plaza - replaced by JCPenney
-Annapolis (Parole Plaza) - plaza (not enclosed) later demolished
-Columbia Mall - replaced by JCPenney
-Pentagon (actually inside the Pentagon) closed 1985
-Landmark - replaced by Lord & Taylor, now vacant
-Tysons Corner - replaced by JCPenney which closed later, wing of mall later demolished and rebuilt
-Seven Corners - mall mostly demolished
-Downtown Alexandria - closed sometime in 1960s

Hechts (locations not replaced by Macys)
-Old downtown store - redeveloped as Terrell Place
-Silver Spring - closed in 1987 when Wheaton Plaza location opened, currently City Place shopping center
-Wheaton Plaza - wing demolished and replaced by Costco
-Laurel shopping center (not enclosed) - closed when Laurel Mall location opened
-Chevy Chase - see listing under Woodies
-Laurel Mall - closed, mall currently undergoing demolition
-Tysons (including Galleria), Fair Oaks - both existing Macy's locations as well as former Hecht's sites are now Macy's.

by Frank IBC on Aug 21, 2012 1:34 pm • link • report

@Goldfish-please see this study: http://klingletrail.com/studies/StreamAssessmentReport.pdf

Note the phrases "..damaged infrastructure" in the context of sewer and hydrology, and "exposed sewer manhole...in the middle of the creek".

From the study (url above): "Development in the Klingle Valley watershed occurred long before the implementation of any stormwater management regulations." That is, at the end of the 19th c. and beginning of the 20th c. Any argument that the creek bed and hydrology don't need to be managed is a lost cause.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 1:54 pm • link • report

To be fair, perhaps the city should build a small waste-water treatment plan across from the immediately adjacent neighbors who succeeded in converting the frontage of their properties from sizable thoroughfare to dead-end street.

by ah on Aug 21, 2012 2:30 pm • link • report

spending 11 million to build the world most expensive 3 qtr mile bike path

Except that, as you yourself detailed in your previous comment, it's not a particularly expensive bike path. It's an expensive project to restore the environmental damage done by running a road up an inappropriate incline--plus the cost of sticking a trail on top of the repair. The only question is whether we're going to spend a ton of money to fix it, then stick a path on top of it and have done with it, or spend a ton of to fix it, then build a road on top of it and keep "fixing" it over and over again for the next 100 years.

by oboe on Aug 21, 2012 2:56 pm • link • report

@oboe-the only question is whether we're going to spend a ton of money to fix it, then stick a path on top of it and have done with it, or spend a ton of to fix it, then build a road on top of it and keep "fixing" it over and over again for the next 100 years.

Thankfully we're past that question and now the only question is whether we're going to spend more than 3 years waiting for the completion of the trail.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 3:18 pm • link • report

@Tina: the report is concerned with runoff. The only mention of the sanitary sewerage is where the creek crosses under Connecticut Ave. This is where an active concrete sanitary pipe crosses above the creek, and where erosion has undermined the pipe piers. If not fixed, this pipe will eventually fail.

So no, there is no raw sewage running down Klingle Creek. The report does not mention any fines from EPA.

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 3:23 pm • link • report

The combined sewer area is well south of Klingle Valley. However, Rock Creek at the mouth of Klingle Creek is contaminated from Piney Branch, which has several outfalls:

http://www.dcwater.com/wastewater_collection/css/default.cfm

by Frank IBC on Aug 21, 2012 3:54 pm • link • report

@Goldfish-it is not the business of this report to be concerned about EPA fines. Therefore it doesn't mention them. However the city is currently paying fines to the EPA b/c of storm water runoff and other clean water act violations, which the current conditions in Klingle Valley contribute to.

The study didn't measure human feces either - admittedly I inferred the presence of human waste from the conditions present & from my own experience in that valley and other places in RCP -where there are signs warning you that raw sewage enters the creek after storms. If those compromised sewer pipes are not already leaking and overflowing raw sewage into Klingle Creek they soon will if the problem is not managed, just as you say.

If you did not already know it -yes, there is raw human waste that is regularly dumped into Rock Creek and its tributaries during rainfall. http://cfpub.epa.gov/npdes/home.cfm?program_id=4

Given the conditions and the neglect of the sewer system/hydrology management in Klingle Valley I do not think I am way off in my inference -but yes you are correct this study did not measure human feces content in the flow. Still, I am willing to bet a sizable chunk of change that a sample drawn after a storm will yield positive results for human feces ("positive" meaning "present") in this creek.

It is the correction and management of this and other water flow problems that account for the largest portion of the estimated cost of the project. Making the trail is a very small portion of the estimated project cost.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 3:55 pm • link • report

@Tina, other raw outflows will not be fixed by fixing the Klingle hydrology. I presume EPA fines are from that, which will persist until those problems are corrected.

So again, what happens if the city does nothing? I see some eventual erosion liability, but nothing else.

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 4:02 pm • link • report

@goldfish-you seem to be implying that you think doing nothing is an acceptable action, and that the current conditions do not degrade the water quality of the system in a meaningful way.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 4:08 pm • link • report

@Tina: no. I am just trying to understand the options. Since "do nothing" is what DC has been doing for quite some time, it is reasonable to ask how long this can be sustained.

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 4:12 pm • link • report

other raw outflows will not be fixed by fixing the Klingle hydrology.

Yes. Thats stating the obvious. Fixing outflow "A" does nothing to fix outflow "B" either. Another example of stating the obvious. Its a system and all these problems must be addressed over time to improve it, including Klingle Valley, outflow "A", outflow "B" and all the other neglected and broken pieces. This is the right thing to do even if there were no EPA incentives.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 4:15 pm • link • report

it is reasonable to ask how long this can be sustained. Yes that is a reasonable question.

There are many people with expert knowledge in this area (not me) who say we passed the point of "sustainable" a long time ago. That is, the conditions as they currently are degrade the system and continually worsen.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 4:28 pm • link • report

@Tina: what is the end game? when does the problem become so large that it is no longer possible to ignore it?

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 4:37 pm • link • report

Better yet, does it become more expensive to fix the longer we wait?

by oboe on Aug 21, 2012 4:50 pm • link • report

@oboe: that is a given. OTOH, to fix it now will probably mean that funding will have to pulled from some other infrastructure project. This other (unfunded) problem will fester, and will also get more expensive to fix later.

It is just like maintaining a house.

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 5:07 pm • link • report

@goldfish- when does the problem become so large that it is no longer possible to ignore it? the answer to that is subjective. IMO and in the opinions of others who know more about this than me, we passed that point. But if you don't care then it doesn't matter. Its easy to ignore anything if you don't see it everyday. Objectively, do you care about the quality of the system? If yes, then this problem can not be ignored any more than combined sewer overflow "A" or "B" can be, even if you never go near Rock Creek. However I maintain that civilized people do not want raw human waste in their surface water and thus the problem can not be ignored.

@oboes question is well stated: the longer nothing is done the bigger the problem will be when something finally does get done.

The only reason the creek bed has not been restored and the hydrology managed before is b/c of the politics/conflicting interests involved. Don't misinterpret "nothing has been done for so long" with "nothing has been done for so long so that must mean the problem is not very important".

Every plan (road/trail/green space) has this restoration as the beginning of it. Details of this restoration and management plan are dependent on what goes on top, road vs. trail vs. deerpath, b/c each of those will affect the hydrology management differently. Thats the part thats been held up: what goes on the surface. There is consensus on all sides, those who would rather see an auto only paved road and those who would prefer a green space/deerpath, all agree that the hydrology is a mess and needs to be addressed. No one has been intentionally ignoring this aspect.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 5:30 pm • link • report

@Tina, no, the answer is usually pretty easy: when there is a catastrophic structural failure, such that far larger systems are at risk. Such as when the sewer pipe collapses, or an active street or inhabited building is washed out. When will this occur?

You have a house that has a very long list of needs and improvements (just like DC). You don't fix things that you can live with (like Klingle Rd), when there are other more important problems (like the raw sewage outflows into RCP).

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 5:44 pm • link • report

@goldfish, if you want to use the house analogy then its like fixing a leaky roof. A few times you can patch it but eventually The whole roof needs to be replaced or the integrity of the entire house is in jeopardy. thats where we are with our 100+ year old waste water system, of which Klingle is a part that has been neglected a long time.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 5:45 pm • link • report

@goldfish -you said you cared about the quality of the water system. But in every comment you question why this project should be done. Its obvious your opinion is this problem isn't worth addressing. ok then.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 5:50 pm • link • report

@Tina: The main problem is erosion and related liability; not water quality, which will be unaffected by this repair.

by goldfish on Aug 21, 2012 5:54 pm • link • report

The main problem is erosion and related liability; not water quality, which will be unaffected by this repair.

this statement is not an opinion and it is incorrect.-- unless you don't care about water quality. Caring and not caring are subjective. See the EA for the quantitative data on water quality and environmental and public health impacts.

by Tina on Aug 21, 2012 6:04 pm • link • report

@Tina: For this particular issue -- the Klingle Road washout -- the report you cited makes it clear what the problem is: erosion. Yes DC has water quality issues due to the many problems in the sanitary system, but none of that will be fixed by stabilizing the Klingle Creek banks.

If you are as concerned with water quality as I am, look elsewhere such as the DC Water Clean Rivers Project, which btw will cost at least 100x more than what is contemplated to fix Klingle Rd. There the money spent will actually improve water quality.

by goldfish on Aug 22, 2012 8:55 am • link • report

@goldfish-the erosion study focuses on erosion, flow rate 7 pattern, flooding, etc. The EA addresses water quality and safety. Both will be improved by this project.

by Tina on Aug 22, 2012 10:05 am • link • report