It has been really annoying to hear complaints about Metro after the Nats game. The last train was announced and put on the video boards constantly. If the Nats want to pay for the service in these rare circumstances, they're welcome to. This isn't the first Nats game that has gone past closing time. In the past, people complained because of who was paying for it. Metro users have been SOL at Caps games, United matches and Nats games. This is nothing new.

by selxic on Aug 22, 2012 8:47 am • link • report

re: The Nats Metro stranding
The Lerners need to stop being cheap and promise that they'll pony up the cash each and every single time a game goes late. Think it looks bad now?
Just imagine if this happens in October! :)

by Marty on Aug 22, 2012 8:51 am • link • report

How is the new bus priority different from the old bus priority?

by charlie on Aug 22, 2012 8:52 am • link • report

Re: taxis--

Good. Let the drivers and taxi companies pay for installing card readers. It's the fault of these drivers and their companies for falling so far behind and not doing this on their own accord over time.

Uber > taxi

by MJ on Aug 22, 2012 8:52 am • link • report

The NAT's look dumber and dumber every time this happens.

Metro has been pretty upfront in that it costs $ 29K per hour to keep the system open for them (and anyone else who wants to pay). Metro then refunds the difference to them made up by whatever fares they collect.

Assuming that what...10,000 of the 30,000 people (Average attendance this year)at the game take metro there. At a min base fare of 1.70 ($17,000 total) that means at most it costs the Nats $12,000 to keep the thing open (generally) for another hour.

Lets put it this way, at $6 bucks a beer the Lerners only have to sell $2000 beers during that extra time the stadium is open to cover the cost.

The Lerners deserve all the bad press they are getting about this.

by Nats on Aug 22, 2012 9:08 am • link • report

RE: Bike Lanes

Something I'd wondered yesterday- considering the status quo of defaulting to shared lanes, a part of me wonders if instead of branding "bike lanes" to separate out the bikes to leave the cars on their own; we could instead brand them "car lanes" to separate out the cars and leave the bikes on their own. Just a quick thought- surely more intricacies than that; but fun to entertain in my mind.

by Bossi on Aug 22, 2012 9:16 am • link • report

That is a bit of a mischaracterization of what the Atlantic Cities bike lanes article talks about. More traditional painted bike lanes have encouraged more riding an improved road safety in many communities.

Advocates have long known this and pushed for it, only in recent years have they seen the ideas catch on. Part of the reason, I think, more transportation planners/engineers and elected leaders have been slower to agree is that they are the ones who are stuck in an "us-vs-them" mentality. Creating a greater understanding on how these facilities create safer streets for all modes and that armageddon won't result on taking some space away from cars is key.

by jeff on Aug 22, 2012 9:18 am • link • report

Lets put it this way, at $6 bucks a beer the Lerners only have to sell $2000 beers during that extra time the stadium is open to cover the cost.

I'd support this if it meant permitting beer to be sold after the seventh inning... nothing worse than when a game stretches past the time Metro closes *and* there hasn't been a beer for sale in nearly two hours.

by Arl Fan on Aug 22, 2012 9:26 am • link • report

Wait, what happened to the bid protest regarding the taxi smart meters? I thought nothing could move forward until that issue was resolved.

by 7r3y3r on Aug 22, 2012 9:28 am • link • report

@Arl Fan

The Caps playoff game I went to this year was quite similar. They cut off beer at the end of the 2nd intermission,and then the 20 minute intermission between 3rd period and 1st overtime, everyone just kind of stood in the concourse and looked at each other.

by Kyle-w on Aug 22, 2012 9:30 am • link • report

@Nats:

Where to start?

The Metro flak said yesterday on WTOP that the Nats now have to provide one day's notice - and since they don't know in advance what games will go into extra innings or be delayed by rain, that means about 65 or 70 games (factoring in getaway days and Sunday games that are afternoon contests) would have to be covered. That's upwards of two million dollars, to cover something that happens maybe five times a year.

Also, I think they stop selling beer after the seventh inning, and they certainly cannot legally sell beer to anyone intoxicated, so I think the prospect of selling 2,000 beers after midnight is as far-fetched as your math.

It would be great if Metro was a bit more flexible and could keep ten trains available and keep station personnel at all 86 stations for an extra hour - and do so on short notice. But that's asking a lot of their late night staff and the Transit Workers Union.

Perhaps a solution involving the union - with workers getting golden time or triple time for late notification - might solve the problem. That way, the Nats would only have to pay for the service when needed, and Metro and the workers would be fairly compensated for the occasional disruption in their work schedules.

by Mike S. on Aug 22, 2012 9:34 am • link • report

The last time separate infrastructure for bikes came up I said the same thing I'll say now. Painted lines are good to figure out what routes work and how people will react to them, but they only capture the low-hanging fruit (so to speak) of people considering bike commuting, or just running errands. You're not going to get many moms/kids out there without separated lanes. I don't see DC getting past whatever percentage of mode share we're at now w/o new, separate infrastructure. Frankly, DDOT should be installing lane mile after lane mile, but they've done virtually nothing this year. The L St. lane should be almost completed but they haven't even started.

by thump on Aug 22, 2012 9:35 am • link • report

@kyle-w
I don't get the whole cutting off beer sales. I know theoretically it is to prevent people from driving drunk, but honestly, how much sobering up are you going to do in the 45 minutes or so between when the last beer is sold and the end of the game? If you buy a beer right before the cut off, you likely shouldn't be driving anyway (especially since by the time you finish your beer, there is maybe 20 minutes left in the game). Letting alcohol sales go to the end of the game wouldn't prevent the stadium from cutting off someone is is drunk.

by nathaniel on Aug 22, 2012 9:36 am • link • report

Mike S.

I highly doubt the Nats would need to pony up $29k in April for a game that might run late in August.

I would imagine they could easily establish an account with WMATA, put down a deposit for one or two hours of extra service, and draw on that deposit when needed.

This really shouldn't be that hard.

by Alex B. on Aug 22, 2012 9:38 am • link • report

@mike S
I think you misunderstand how things work. Yes the nationals have to put a deposit down in advance, but they can call metro up while any game is in progress and ask for service to be extended that night. They can't do that if they haven't put a deposit down. So all the nationals would be out is 29,000 at a time. IF they do need extended service and use that deposit, they would then have to put another 29,000 down to be used at a future date. They don't ahve to put a seperate deposit for every potential late game.

by nathaniel on Aug 22, 2012 9:39 am • link • report

Re the beer, how about having a system where you can pay for a round-trip Metro or bus ride with your ticket, and your ticket gets stamped if you do; anyone who does that can then have beer later in the game.

by David Alpert on Aug 22, 2012 9:39 am • link • report

@David - Good suggestion. Might even give Metro some extra revenue from ppl walking to games who would be willing to pay a "drink late" fee! Might be even more true for Caps and Wizards games -- do more folks live in walking distance?

However, I suspect that to really persuade teams to keep the taps open longer, we'd need safe-harbor legislation to limit their liability from postgame alcohol-influenced driving.

by Arl Fan on Aug 22, 2012 9:53 am • link • report

Re the beer, how about having a system where you can pay for a round-trip Metro or bus ride with your ticket, and your ticket gets stamped if you do; anyone who does that can then have beer later in the game.

That sounds easy to administer. And by easy I mean a complete freakin' nightmare.

by dcd on Aug 22, 2012 9:54 am • link • report

@David Alpert
I do like that consolidation of transit and beer. I thought Metro was going to start allowing bundling of transit to other types of event and such tickets. What happened to that?

I guess you could make the argument that the transit people would get pressure to buy beers for the non-transit people. But then again, anyone could stockpile beers before the end of normal beer sales.

by Steve W on Aug 22, 2012 9:55 am • link • report

I think the focus on beer may be a tad narrow. How about sales of soft drinks and food? Based on the last game I attended, their sales of those is probably as high or higher than their alcohol sales (or at least close). And while its easy to put off one's need for alcohol, being hungry is a bit more urgent (well at least for most of us) A long or delayed game can mean midnight munchies - and the folks who brought food to the game, are probably out of it by then.

Side note - I was quite impressed at the number of cylcists leaving the last game I attended.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Aug 22, 2012 9:55 am • link • report

The Nats messed up, but a non-negligible number of people are blaming WMATA for what happened. What incentive do the Nats have to pony up the money if WMATA is going to take the blame?

by Rob on Aug 22, 2012 9:57 am • link • report

The attendance on Monday was only around 21,000. There was a weather delay and the game went to extra innings. The Nats would have had to pay for two extra hours. Most would call those extraordinary circumstances. It won't happen in October.

Alcohol sales stopping before the end of an event is standard practice. It's used to prevent drunk driving, to limit drunk behavior and to make things easier for workers to keep track of supplies in a timely manner. Most stadium concessions are rented. I'm not sure how the financial breakdown works, but the Lerners likely simply receive rent. They likely don't receive anything from food sales. The concessions adjust their prices to the high rent.

by selxic on Aug 22, 2012 10:07 am • link • report

The attendance on Monday was only around 21,000. There was a weather delay and the game went to extra innings. The Nats would have had to pay for two extra hours. Most would call those extraordinary circumstances. It won't happen in October.

It's not going to rain in October?

Playoff baseball games are dreadfully slow. Managers are cautious, more pitching changes, etc. Add in the prospect of an 8pm Eastern start time to maximize primetime viewing, and you're easily looking at a 3.5 hour game going right up to near Metro closing without a hint of a rain delay:

http://ask.metafilter.com/135819/Why-are-postseason-baseball-games-so-long

by Alex B. on Aug 22, 2012 10:14 am • link • report

Honesty: Most of the cities are clustered around the mid-90s, not much to "rank".

European cities: The poor have been pushed to the periphery for ages. Places like the East End or the sqaulid areas around Les halles have been longstanding exceptions. Get on the Paris Metro and go to the outer areas and you'll feel like you're on N Capitol Street c. 1990.

by Rich on Aug 22, 2012 10:21 am • link • report

@selxic Metro users have been SOL at Caps games, United matches and Nats games. This is nothing new.

The Caps have a standing arrangement with Metro to pay for extra service, as do the Redskins. Not sure about DC United.

That said, with many sports there's only a certain amount of overtime that's possible. For example, during the regular season NHL is one 5-minute OT followed by a shootout. So it's impossible for a game to go hours into the night after closing.

by Adam L on Aug 22, 2012 10:24 am • link • report

The Nats would have had to pay for one extra hour - the game lasted until 12:30. The extra hour extends Metro from 12 to 1 and Metro works with the team to provide the trains where they are needed.

Regardless of whether you think it would happen or not, it would be nice if the team planned for the contingency. Considering the Nats payroll was $81 million and presumably their revenue above that, one would think that holding down a $30k deposit in case a game goes over would not be a problem for the team.

by MLD on Aug 22, 2012 10:28 am • link • report

Re: European Gentrification,

While the social scientists and politicians work over the best policies to reduce class conflicts, architects and planners could help by not continuing to build the kind of low income housing that screems "low income housing". While Parisians stopped LeCorbusiers dream (nightmare) for the rebuilding of historic Paris, LeCorbusier's vision was realized in the suburbs. Some of this is due to the institutional bias against traditional architecture, which French intellectuals and establishment architects reject, but like in the United States, is where most call home. I'm not denying the really difficult issues with integration the French and Europe in general are having with all their immigrants, but continuing to house the poor in this kind of inhumane environment can't be helping.

by Thayer-D on Aug 22, 2012 10:30 am • link • report

How late in the evening could the Nats have asked Metro to stay open? The game was hit by a rain delay and ran extra innings, but an extra inning game can be over very quickly.
If the Nats had the deposit, could they have asked Metro at 11:10 PM to stay open another hour?

Playoff games in October will have a later start time of 8:15 to 8:30 PM for the national TV audience. There should be plans in place to arrange for Metro to stay open later for any Sunday to Thursday night games.

There is a broader question of when the Metro should change the weekday closing time to 1 AM? As more people move into apartments and condos clustered around the Metro stations, the Metro will become an ever more vital component to people living in the DC area. The Metro is going to have to consider extending their Monday to Thursday night closing times to 1 AM so people can still get around the city through midnight.

On the opening times, shouldn't Metro consider opening at 6 AM on Saturdays? I've run into this myself (speaking as a VA suburbanite) when looking to take the Metro to Union Station to catch an Amtrak train for a day trip on Saturday. Can't take Metro from the Orange line and catch an Amtrak train leaving before 8 AM. There have to be a number of people who work in retail, service businesses, need to work in the office on Saturdays who can't take the Metro because it does not start until after 7 AM on Saturdays.

by AlanF on Aug 22, 2012 10:31 am • link • report

I say it won't happen in October because there is no doubt the Lerners will pay up for the Playoffs, Alex B.

Has that always been the case with the Caps, Adam L? Maybe it was another event, but I recall the announcements in the Phonebooth. United definitely doesn't. I recall at least one match against Houston that featured lengthy weather delays and was completed or finally postponed well after closing time.

by selxic on Aug 22, 2012 10:34 am • link • report

I say it won't happen in October because there is no doubt the Lerners will pay up for the Playoffs, Alex B.

Sorry, I read your post as saying the 'extraordinary circumstances' that lead to this issue won't happen in October, which I don't think is true.

8pm starts, longer games (just for 9 innings, yet alone for extras), and the potential for a weather delay all make the circumstances less extraordinary.

by Alex B. on Aug 22, 2012 10:47 am • link • report

Cutting off the beer after the 7th inning/second intermission is a good idea.

The last we need is a couple thousand drunk fans stumbling around on the Metro platforms. It would only be a matter of time before sombody fell in front of a train.

And we sure don't need the drunk drivers.

by ceefer66 on Aug 22, 2012 10:58 am • link • report

Interesting take on what's happening with European cities, particularly London, Paris, and Berlin.

Much of the same is happening in DC, making the frequently-heard "we should become more like Europe" all the more ominous.

by ceefer66 on Aug 22, 2012 11:10 am • link • report

@Mike S, I did not see your post when I asked about how late the Nats could have asked for Metro to stay open late.

The number of home games effected by a midnight Metro closing time is far less than 65 to 70. Checking the 2012 schedule, between Mon/Thursday off days, afternoon getaway games, holiday daytime games, there are 34 games scheduled on Monday to Thursday evenings. There were no Sunday night games in the schedule at the start of the year, although the Nats will see a couple of those per year as contenders in the future.

So, if we use 35 home games as the baseline and if the Nats attendance grows, should the Nats (and DC?) consider paying Metro to stay open an hour later for all Monday to Thursday night home games as a matter of course? Could be a boon to the local nightclubs, if people know there are certain nights from April to September that the Metro will stay open an hour later.

The baseball playoffs can be very capricious with very good teams getting dumped in a 5 game series. But a Nat vs Yankees World Series would be fun with all the DC vs NYC cultural subtexts.

by AlanF on Aug 22, 2012 11:20 am • link • report

What subtexts?

by selxic on Aug 22, 2012 11:23 am • link • report

Even if the Lerners walked into Richard Sarles' office with a briefcase containing $30,000 in cash, can the Nats really instruct Metro to adjust its timetables, keep all of its employees on for an extra hour, and postpone any scheduled track work with only a few hours notice?

I sincerely doubt that the team (or Metro) have the ability to make spontaneous decisions like that.

by andrew on Aug 22, 2012 11:45 am • link • report

Even if the Lerners walked into Richard Sarles' office with a briefcase containing $30,000 in cash, can the Nats really instruct Metro to adjust its timetables, keep all of its employees on for an extra hour, and postpone any scheduled track work with only a few hours notice?

YES

That is the entire point - Metro has a system for this and the Nats are not participating.

by MLD on Aug 22, 2012 11:48 am • link • report

Re: European gentrification

While I am happy about the changes in DC in the last 14 or so years, I think it is good for urbanists to be reminded that we want to avoid European-style suburban ghettos (they still exist in this country but we are so conditioned into thinking poverty is urban).

by watcher on Aug 22, 2012 12:49 pm • link • report

euro gentrification and banlieus

PG, MoCo, etc are hardly like the hirise suburbs of Paris - mostly garden apts and cheaper houses. When we do reach the point where we need higher suburban densities for the poor, we can learn lessons and do better than the euro cities - I often defend modernism, but I must agree with Thayer here - a lot of whats wrong in europe is some really bad modernism. What does Thayer think of the new low income midrise density in the Bronx?

Also we can use affordable housing requirements to counter economic segregation.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Aug 22, 2012 1:00 pm • link • report

@Walker,
I don't have any issue with the new midrise density in the Bronx. People talk about how "boring" infill architecture can be, but aren't we all boring most days? Meaning, average infill housing would do better getting the urbanism, scale, and detail issues right, rather than worrying about the style and whether the building is cutting edge. Like what I always wondered about my architecture school professors, if it's good enough for you, why not for the public?

by Thayer-D on Aug 22, 2012 1:49 pm • link • report

Given that the problem of suburban poverty is dwarfed by urban poverty, and given that this is the direct result of more than a half century of explicit public policy, I'll save my worrying about rising rates of poverty in the suburbs, and falling rates in the city at least for a little while yet.

by oboe on Aug 22, 2012 1:52 pm • link • report

I think it is good for urbanists to be reminded that we want to avoid European-style suburban ghettos (they still exist in this country but we are so conditioned into thinking poverty is urban).

+1000

The next battle needs to be the development and maintenance of our "Streetcar Suburbs," for when the rest of us are finally priced out of the city.

by andrew on Aug 22, 2012 4:49 pm • link • report