I would rather see an effort to dig this much needed rail line into a new tunnel- it speaks volumes that the elite would resort to silly arguments against a much needed transportation infrastructure project rather then the common sense of placing it in a tunnel, but such is the silliness of elitist opposition to transportation infrastructure in general.

by Douglas Willinger on Jan 21, 2009 2:41 pm • link • report

"A train would pass the school every 30 seconds to two minutes, at 40 miles per hour."

Shouldn't this read "A *bus* would..."?

by jfruh on Jan 21, 2009 2:45 pm • link • report

Oops. Fixed. That was an editing error on my part.

by David Alpert on Jan 21, 2009 2:46 pm • link • report

Sure tunneling would be better. So would heavy rail, maybe. But the cost of tunneling alone is $400 million/mile. Building the purple line to heavy rail, underground standards would like increase the cost of the project by at least 500% and make it a non-starter.

I am against SLAPP suits, because it creates a chilling effect wrt civic participation, but it would be nice if at the end, when the Town of Chevy Chase likely loses a suit, that they would be forced to pay the court costs of the defendants.

by Richard Layman on Jan 21, 2009 2:50 pm • link • report

There must be a way to get the Town of Chevy Chase to stop this silly campaign. For example, Congress coerces states to do what it wants by offering them money (or taking money away) for certain projects, grants, etc.

Why can't the state of Maryland and Montgomery County do the same thing? I'm pretty sure the Town of Chevy Chase will come to its senses when they lose certain public services.

by Adam on Jan 21, 2009 3:02 pm • link • report

If there is political pressure put on them, it will come from the Prince George's delegation to the Maryland House of Delegates and Maryland State Senate. Some say that some elected officials from Prince George's are starting to lay out such a political strategy to use should the need arise.

by Cavan on Jan 21, 2009 3:15 pm • link • report

obviously they're more concerned with the children on rosemary street than those on jones bridge road.

by jenny on Jan 21, 2009 3:28 pm • link • report

jenny

Kids shouldn't be living on that road anyways. It's too dangerous. It's an accident waiting to happen. I wouldn't want my front yard on Braddock Rd. either.

by MPC on Jan 21, 2009 3:41 pm • link • report

MPC, Jones Bridge Road currently isn't a very big road. It has one lane in each direction and a median lane. It also has shoulders. That's why using for a BRT is makes so little sense. In its current form, it's decent enough as a secondary car-dependent suburban road.

by Cavan on Jan 21, 2009 3:53 pm • link • report

What are the cost estimates for tunneling options, e.g. full length between the Red Lines bored tunnels, and shorter cut and cover alternatives?

For what Chevy Chase is spending to stop the project, how far would that co to a cut and cover segment for the country club area?

by Douglas Willinger on Jan 21, 2009 3:57 pm • link • report

Why can't the BRT use the same right of way as the light rail alternative?

by Tom on Jan 21, 2009 4:04 pm • link • report

Douglas, what tunneling are you suggesting? Several possible alternatives. (1) Light rail tunneled in Chevy Chase but above ground on the rest of the route? (2) Tunneling the whole route? (3) Something similar to existing Metrorail lines, heavy rail above ground where there is exclusive right of way, with occasional bridges, and underground everywhere else? (4) Tunneling in East Silver Spring but above ground elsewhere?

(4) is a variant of the high end light rail option in the existing study. (2) would be more undergrounding than even the existing Metro system and would cost several billion dollars more than light rail. (3) would be similar to our existing Metro system in degree of grade separation, but would be worse than light rail for the trail in Chevy Chase (since there would be a fenced-off heavy rail line running alongside) and would be very expensive if not as expensive as (2).

If you are talking about (1), how do you justify leaving the rail line above ground in East Silver Spring where undergrounding would yield substantial time savings for commuters while putting it underground in Chevy Chase where there is an existing right of way and the investment would not yield any time saving for commuters?

by Ben Ross on Jan 21, 2009 4:06 pm • link • report

mpc

whether children live on jones bridge or not is irrelevant - north chevy chase elementary school is located *on* jones bridge, and increased traffic on that road will necessarily affect them. and IIRC, the crosswalk in front of the school doesn't even have an attendant traffic signal.

by jenny on Jan 21, 2009 4:16 pm • link • report

I hope MTA dosen't get intimidated by all the legalese they're throwing down. It reminds me of what they used to say in architecture school "baffle them with bullshit".

As someone who grew up in Chevy Chase when the CSX still ran to Georgetown and before it became an exclusivly wealthy community, this is another case of the rich and powerful being able to subvert the levers of government in their favor. The right of way was preserved for a trolly line. Hopefully O'Malley will pull through.

by Thayer-D on Jan 21, 2009 4:39 pm • link • report

Why should we be surprised to see the Town of Chevy Chase bring lawsuits to stop what could not be stopped by their public opinion campaign? Perhaps the Mayor and Council of the Town of Chevy Chase feel they have no choice but to "double down" on their bet. They cannot stop fighting now without admitting that the $400K of their taxpayer money already spent on the Schwartz consultant study promoting BRT on Jones Bridge Road was wasted.

The Columbia Country Club litigated to assert that the County did not receive rights to all 100' of the width of the right of way when it purchased the corridor from the B&O Railroad. They fought all the way to the Supreme Court, and still lost. Having a lot of money and a bunch of lawyers does not of itself spell success at obstruction. You need a valid legal case too. I'm not a lawyer, but the complaints sound more like sour grapes than a valid legal reason to overturn a DEIS.

by Wayne Phyillaier on Jan 21, 2009 5:20 pm • link • report

Ben-

The options I am thinking about are the trolly-rr alignment, either drilled about the entire length, or cut and cover through the country club area.

Since it would not be heavy rail with its 1% max grade change requirement but rather light or WMATA style which can take up to a 5% grade change, t could feasibly be so partially tunneled.

Do any of the studies account for newer drilling technologies which have come down in price over the past few decade? Such is being promoted for Seattle WA's much needed Route 99 project, whereas a WMATA tunnel would be smaller:

http://cos-mobile.blogspot.com/2009/01/seattle-99-wa-its-bored-tunnel.html

by Douglas Willinger on Jan 21, 2009 5:26 pm • link • report

I'm still not following how much of the route you want to put underground. Cut and cover along the trail is opposed by the town and raises several technical and policy issues listed here (slightly out of date).

Technology to bore through bedrock has indeed improved, but the new boring machine technology is not all that new - it was used to build the Wheaton-Glenmont Red Line section. And much of the expense of deep tunneling the Purple Line in Chevy Chase comes from building the underground station in Bethesda around the existing Metro station with trains running all the time. A much harder job than tunneling deep in competent rock. If you want to tunnel the whole project, the other stations become expensive too.

East of (roughly) Piney Branch Road, there is no bedrock and cut and cover construction beneath roadways would be necessary. This requires utility relocation etc. and tends to be more disruptive and expensive than above ground construction.

By the way - to clarify my previous post - all light rail options include some tunneling in East Silver Spring. The amount and location varies.

by Ben Ross on Jan 21, 2009 6:12 pm • link • report

Jenny

increased traffic on that road will necessarily affect them.

Only if they walk to-and-from school

by MPC on Jan 21, 2009 6:15 pm • link • report

Tom - Because that corridor would require the country to reclaim the 100ft right of way through the Colombia Country Club, a business that is squatting on that land to play golf with the exception of a fenced-off 16ft portion for the trail. Jones Bridge Road goes around the country club. Players at the club are the pro-bono legal muscle trying to protect it.

Ben Ross - I don't think that it's quite worth it for this stretch where we have a solid, existing right of way, but deep tunnelling technology & bore sizes have reached the point that it is economically feasable to build deep-bore tunnels in the Separated Blue Line.

MPC - for an elementary school, that is not uncommon.

by Squalish on Jan 21, 2009 7:23 pm • link • report

*For the County to reclaim the land, not country

*Deep Bore Stations in the Separated Blue Line.

by Squalish on Jan 21, 2009 7:25 pm • link • report

How can the PG County delegation have impact on the Town of Chevy Chase which is in MoCo?

by Richard Layman on Jan 21, 2009 8:47 pm • link • report

Richard-

Because PG county's delegation to the Maryland legislature in Annapolis could exert pressure through the state (e.g. hold up state projects or funding in Chevy Chase).

by Adam on Jan 21, 2009 9:00 pm • link • report

mpc

i'd hazard a guess that a fair number of students walk to north chevy chase elementary. according to the MoCo bd of ed, transportation is only provided to elementary students who live more than one mile from the school; furthermore, the bd encourages walking & biking to school.

granted, things have likely changed somewhat since i was enrolled at chevy chase e.s. (the one on rosemary), but the vast majority of those of us who lived within a mile of the school walked.

by jenny on Jan 22, 2009 11:10 am • link • report

The WRI study is bunk. All it does is use current Bush standards to look at the transit line as well as leaving out the urban development component of GHGs from both projects. The author posted a reply to my blog post about this issue but never really answered the question. It's unfortunate that some so called "experts" don't understand the global issues including streets, roads, planning, buildings, AND transportation in the look into GHGs. Call the whambulance.

by The Overhead Wire on Jan 22, 2009 2:09 pm • link • report

There seems to be one constant that many of you are missing. "Follow the money", and you will find that it doesn't lead you to the Chevy Chase Country Club, but the Chevy Chase Land Company, and that is what this proposal is about. After you realize what the light rail proposal is about, you might see how you have been manipulated.

by JR on Jan 22, 2009 2:26 pm • link • report

WHAT?!?! The Chevy Chase Land Company is not behind anything. They have contributed no money to any Purple Line proponents. Many landownders stand to gain from owning land in proximity to a new transit line. Just like the owners in downtown DC have greatly profited from being so close to Metro Center and Chinatown stations.

Hmmm, the country club was outed as being behind anti-Purple Line astroturf and you're saying to follow the money to the Chevy Chase Land Company?

And no, I haven't been manipulated. I have never met anyone from the Chevy Chase Land Company. By your logic, I have also been bought off by every property owner in Bethesda, Silver Spring, Langley Park, College Park, Riverdale, and New Carrolton who stand to profit from the increased property values. Sarcastically, wouldn't that be nice? Think of all the new things I could buy with that astroturf bribery money? But no. I've only bought goods and services with my salary from my day job.

You have to remember that the transit stop will also make the value of the nearby houses increase, too. Please don't drag out that old tired hackneyed charge about evil developers buying off naive and stupid transit advocates. It's just not true and it's insulting to our collective intelligence.

by Cavan on Jan 22, 2009 2:36 pm • link • report

The only people being manipulated are those who have been fooled into (incorrectly) thinking the trail will become unusable after trains start running in it. That is false false false.

by BeyondDC on Jan 22, 2009 2:43 pm • link • report

Adam: It would be nice if the State or County could cut off services to The Town of Chevy Chase, but they can't. Worse than that, the State and County fund about 85% of the Town's revenue. In effect, the Town is using State and County funds to fight the State and County on the Purple line. And the Town has deep pockets. They could easily survive several years with absolutely no tax revenue of their own.

The State dictates that the Town gets income and property tax revenue from the County. State transportation revenue to the Town is protected by the State Constitution.

The Town's Fiscal Year 2009 Budget shows $1.1 million in operating expenses for actual services (trash collection, parks, and code enforcement), and $1.9 million in "General Government" (Administration, Civic Affairs and Constituent Services). That comes to $3.0 million. Money from the State and County is about $2.5 million. Actual taxes paid by Town residents are only $192,000, or 6.5% of the operating budget.

The Town also has a $1.8 million capital budget, funded entirely through reserves. This will leave them with a reserve balance of 80.8% of their FY09 operating budget.

by Stanton Park on Jan 23, 2009 6:26 pm • link • report

Cavan, BDC, Your quick, defensive posts confirm to me that those who will benefit handsomely from the Purple line have plenty of experience and are very good at manipulating naïve residents. It also is clear that you don’t understand what I meant by “follow the money.” As to the comment about “Astroturf bribery money,” they know that it isn’t necessary to provide money to naïfs, since the naïfs can be “bought” with empty promises and unfounded environmental and other claims that reinforce their perception of moral superiority.

If this project is completed, in time, you can look back at your posts here, and determine who really benefited, and whether it fulfilled its promises. After the dust settles, will there actually be low-income residents within walking distance of any of the new transit stops, or would the low-income residents have been better served by using the same funds to provide good quality bus service, frequent service to the neighborhoods that need it, and able to change routes and service frequency respond to changes in demand? And, after the dust settles and the trees have been removed, you will also get to observe the quality of the remaining recreation space alongside the route.

by JR on Jan 24, 2009 5:51 pm • link • report

not defensive. Just frustrated and tired of rebuffing the same tired arguments over and over again.

by Cavan on Jan 25, 2009 11:06 pm • link • report

not defensive. Just frustrated and tired of rebuffing the same tired arguments over and over again.

And you call yourself a Washingtonian?

Weak.

by MPC on Jan 25, 2009 11:24 pm • link • report

And I've said it once and I'll say it again. Purple Line supporters would love Bob Moses. I'm reading a book on him. He didn't let pesky regulations get in the way, or bother to consult the parties at stake in his decisions.

But you know what, he got progress and results, and that's what we want, right? We want progress.

Opponents are obviously opposed to progress. Who wants to be opposed to that?

Opponents are just getting in the way of the inevitable, aren't they? Just obstructionists. I mean, it's progress we're after.

I laugh, looking back in history, at what has been sacrificed and screwed up on so many levels, just so we could achieve progress

by MPC on Jan 25, 2009 11:27 pm • link • report

Hardly. Over two decades of study and dialogue is hardly the way Robert Moses worked.

by Cavan on Jan 26, 2009 9:34 am • link • report

Agreed. The Purple Line / Moses connection is extremely flawed. It's been decades, and the public is very supportive outside of Chevy Chase. Opponents are just grasping at straws at this point.

by BeyondDC on Jan 26, 2009 9:50 am • link • report