The grocery store saturation point is not anywhere close to being reached. There is a huge population to service, some of them willing to spend a ridiculous amount of money on groceries at Whole Foods, but others not so much.

by aaa on Sep 11, 2012 8:36 am • link • report

It would be nice to get a real grocery store in Dupont Circle. The Safeway on 17th is pathetically small, offering much fewer options than you'll find at Harris Teeter in Kalorama or presumably at the under construction Giant in Shaw. It's nice having a Whole Foods nearby, but it certainly doesn't offer as many mainstream items found at the likes of Harris Teeter, Giant, or Safeway (excluding 17th Street). Not sure of the best location for a larger grocer in Dupont, but I'm fed up with the paltry options at the 17th Street Safeway. Maybe they should build up and create a second floor.

by Aaron on Sep 11, 2012 9:01 am • link • report

Asking how many grocery stores the area can support seems like a silly question. Given that these operators want it, it would appear the area can support quite a few more.

Deeper than that, how is that a relevant policy question? I would expect it to be a relevant question for an operator to ask, since they're the ones taking the risk - but why should the rest of us worry about it?

by Alex B. on Sep 11, 2012 9:03 am • link • report

Retail not uncommonly oversaturates. The relevant policy situation (assuming no one is subsidizing a specific grocery opening - the last attempt to do that was defeated) is the optimal zoning for retail. I lean to the POV that the retail is overzoned in the "traditional" suburbs, leading to less than optimal store utilization (Since retail costs are highly fixed, the marginal store can harm the economics of the existing stores badly, and the market won't necessarily correct). In an urbanist context, where retail adds to the pedestrian friendliness of the street, and where more widespread retail can result in shorter trips (and make them more likely to be by foot or bike) the tempatation to increase commercial zoning is strong. If high fixed costs never led to market failure, that wouldnt be a problem.

However I see no evidence that there are too many grocery stores in the 14th and U area.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Sep 11, 2012 9:27 am • link • report

I don't think there are too many grocery stores at the 14th and U area. But we also have to remember that nothing is being built yet. A letter of intent is not the same as putting money down on the project (same goes for the Trader Joe's). And, in my cynical world view, this could also be a strategic move on behalf of JBG to secure the neighboring property they want. Having a public amenity like a grocery story included in their overall site plan may help ensure that they win public bidding process.

by Adam L on Sep 11, 2012 9:36 am • link • report

RE: U Street Grocery Stores

General rule of thumb in the industry is that you need about 3000-5000 target population within a defined catchment area to support a grocery store. I could concede this might go a bit higher considering the highest costs that tend to be associated with working in an urban environment -- higher land values, freight costs, bureaucratic hurdles, etc.

Cluster 3 has a population of about 12,000, though it's worth acknowledging that a large portion of those would be unable or unwilling to afford the higher-end fare of these two grocery stores, opting instead for lower-end options. I'd say it's close, but my opinion is that the area -- especially as it continues to grow in population and minding that they can also attract more distant drive-to & transit trips -- is capable of supporting the additional stores.

And in considering competition with Whole Foods: the additional coverage area significantly increases the customer base to the range of 25,000 residents. While I don't doubt that Whole Foods will lose some customers (particularly among those in the vicinity of R and S Streets), the neighborhoods appear quite capable of supporting additional higher-end grocery stores.

by Bossi on Sep 11, 2012 9:42 am • link • report

MLB forbids paying for late Metro

This stays difficult. In principle, I believe that it is weird that private organizations need to chip in for transit. On the other hand, it is unacceptable that the Nats leave their fans stranded. Perhaps MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL need to ban together and just tell cities they won't pony up the money anymore. That's the only way to break weird habits like this.

how many grocery stores can the area support?

Isn't that for the free market to decide? In other words, please let the market get oversaturated so that groceries become cheap. One supermarket will go belly up, and equilibrium will be restored. Why would one argue to let zoning or neighborhoods constrain the (supermarket) market steering the market?

by Jasper on Sep 11, 2012 9:43 am • link • report

The "Soviet Safeway" -- so named because there is nothing on the shelves -- needs the competition to do better, or close.

by goldfish on Sep 11, 2012 9:48 am • link • report

how many grocery stores can the area support?

I don't know! But the developers and retailers seem to think there's room for more! Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong (I hope they're right). If it doesn't work out, then, I don't know, maybe the market can support another bar or possibly ground-level office space.

Seriously, though-- I'm glad I no longer will have to go all the way to Foggy Bottom to go to Trader Joe's, which is an absolute overcrowded zoo on the weekends.

by JustMe on Sep 11, 2012 9:49 am • link • report

Couldn't the Nats/Metro compromise be that they jointly get a sponsor (probably a Nats sponsor) to pony up for the deposit? Would be a drop in the bucket (though I guess I doubt GEICO or Exxon would sponsor) for the sponsor. Nats could announce that the late closure is "brought to you by X" at the game, though I don't know if it would be possible for WMATA to provide any recognition on their property.

by Mony on Sep 11, 2012 9:56 am • link • report

@Jasper
Why should the city pony up the cost for the Nats OT games when the Metro is funded by three jurisdictions, fans at the games are most likely not from DC, and - this is my biggest point - since when does the city have to foot the bill for a private organization to have an event run late? I don't think DC should be footing the bill. If MLB and the Nats are that concerned, reintroduce afternoon playoff and WS games again. I don't want to keep subsidizing a bunch of millionaires...

by dc denizen on Sep 11, 2012 10:03 am • link • report

H-T's popularity is a bit mystifying. Their prices are substantially higher than Giant or Safeway and their edge in fresh foods isn't that great. They probably draw on a certain nostalgia for the large contingent of NC-related folks here, but beyond that I don't see the point. I'm always disappointed when I stop in their stores, although I used to like the deli stuff. In Atlanta, they did very well for a short time, but then jacked up their prices, and faced aggressive competition from Whole Foods (new to the market) and Publix (which runs stores not unlike the pre-Ahold version of Giant). Better merchandising on Giant's part or greater penetration by Whole Foods could easily clean their clock. At some point WF probably will locate somewhere in the 14th St corridor above U or somewhere just E of Shaw and that will happen.

A U St. H-T store would cannibalize the Kalorama store as much or more than it would hurt anyone else. TJ's appeals to a somewhat different group--cheap chic and they do offer real value in many of their lines. TJ's will do fine--people like me who find the trip to 25th & L a drag will not mind being able to walk to TJ's. they will hurt the Soviet Safeway more than anything else.

by Rich on Sep 11, 2012 10:06 am • link • report

Doesn't MLB still have an antitrust exemption? Why on earth do they get special legal privileges if they're using those privileges to burden local taxpayers with outrageous policies like this?

by Arl Fan on Sep 11, 2012 10:07 am • link • report

Rich:

Their prices are substantially higher than Giant or Safeway and their edge in fresh foods isn't that great.

In my neck of the woods, neither of these are true. H-T prices are in line with other grocers, and the quality and basic competence (e.g. just keeping store shelves stocked) is light years ahead of the nearby Safeway.

by Alex B. on Sep 11, 2012 10:13 am • link • report

All of the VDOT aerial photographs of the Silver line can be seen in my last blog post.

by Sand Box John on Sep 11, 2012 10:23 am • link • report

I don't know why Metro can't make money on having an extra 20,000-40,000 passengers, including fans at the stadium, and people who go out and watch the games at bars. Why don't they just charge rush hour rates after 11, and offset the cost that way?

by mphs on Sep 11, 2012 10:28 am • link • report

The region's major races all put down money so that Metro will open early, allowing runners to take the train to event starts. Marine Corps Marathon and Army Ten Miler both draw a bit under 30,000 runners, plus family/friends, race staff, and volunteers.

It seems perfectly reasonable: Metro wouldn't be open at that particularly uneconomical hour, and the special service exists solely to benefit event participants. Why wouldn't we expect MLB to pay a deposit?

CAPTCHA: Is this new system is usable by people who depend on screen readers? Best as I can tell, anyone who's blind or who has low vision cannot participate in discussion on this site.

by David R. on Sep 11, 2012 10:32 am • link • report

@mphs where are you getting your 20,000-40,000 passengers figure from? Sounds like fantasy-land to me.

by movement on Sep 11, 2012 10:45 am • link • report

Doesn't MLB still have an antitrust exemption? Why on earth do they get special legal privileges if they're using those privileges to burden local taxpayers with outrageous policies like this?

Because politicians from the President, to Congress, to our own city council get all dewy-eyed when they think of the "national pastime" and how glorious baseball is for America.

In other words, they turn into a bunch of George Wills. Its a pathetic reality that baseball's owners have exploited since before WWII.

It has given us such highlights as the color barrier (can't taint the glorious game...), the reserve clause (every boy would give his right arm just to play the glorious game, how dare Curt Flood ask not to be sent to Philadelphia), and the demand that, in order to keep a team, a city must essentially build them a free stadium. "Hey DC, you want baseball, pay up, if you don't we'll put the team in Indianapolis."

So now we get baseball playing its games late for TV revenue, then turning around and not allowing the Nats to pony up a few grand to keep the trains running. Par for the course.

by dcdriver on Sep 11, 2012 11:01 am • link • report

MLB forbids paying for late Metro

Well, the local government of Capital of the United States of America should forbid paying public money to keep the metro open just to accommodate a private corporation! And we have guns! That should be a decent guide to which side should change their rules.

by JustMe on Sep 11, 2012 11:08 am • link • report

No repairs to the SSTC until next spring?! Why does this county insist on taking forever and a year to get anything done? [Deleted for violating the comment policy.]

btw I really like how Rachel at the Examiner is the only one in the region providing updates on the SS Transit Center. It's really sad when the neocon Examiner is the only media outlet in the region providing decent in-depth transit coverage.

by King Terrapin on Sep 11, 2012 11:22 am • link • report

@ dc denizen:Why should the city pony up

I didn't say DC should pay. I said that metro should be running when there is a need for it to be running. Quite frankly, metro should be running 24/7 anyway.

Metro is an essential part of this regions infrastructure. Do we close I-395 during the night because there is little use? No. Then why close metro?

Since this region is unwilling to build more roads and pretends to cherish its metro system, then it should make sure that that metro system runs not just during rush hour, but also at night, in the weekends, and during events.

by Jasper on Sep 11, 2012 11:41 am • link • report

I call B.S. on Major League Baseball.

by Jack Love on Sep 11, 2012 12:11 pm • link • report

Evans is trying to mislead here. The MLB spokesperson says there's “not a policy per se” that covers this, and that “We just never have faced with situation like this before.” So it might technically be true that "in no city in the country does the team have to pick up the tab for games that go beyond" I think it's because most MLB cities don't have rail transit to their stadiums, and of those that do, they either run 24/7 as a matter of course or simply don't have the option for a private organization to foot the bill for a later closing.

In Boston, MBTA says "In the event the game runs late, a public announcement and a posting will be made on the jumbo screen at Fenway Park advising customers that the last train will depart Kenmore Square Station at 12:10 A.M." So the fans would be just as stranded and there's not even an option where the Red Sox could keep the T open if they wanted to.

by thm on Sep 11, 2012 12:27 pm • link • report

A while back I mapped DC's grocery stores - http://mvjantzen.com/tools/bikeshops.html?groceries - if you hit "F" you'll see the 3 future stores; JBG's Trader Joe's and Harris Teeter, and the return of the 7th & O Giant. Not showing the potential Georgetown H-T on K St (see http://georgetownmetropolitan.com/2012/07/17/harris-teeter-in-georgetown/)

14th & U is so lucky; we already have a Yes and that tiny "Best DC" store, and the wonderful Smucker Farms, not to mention the farmers market at Reeves.

by Michael on Sep 11, 2012 12:30 pm • link • report

"Do we close I-395 during the night because there is little use? No. Then why close metro?"

the main costs of a highway are capital, land, maintenance. Incremental operating costs are small (essentially state police), and late night usage (by trucks for example) relatively high. By contrast, airports, which are also public infrastructure seldom operate 24/7. Some auto ferries are not not 24/7. And most rail transit systems in the US are not.

And IIUC DC WMATA did lengthen operating hours a few years back. perhaps the hours should be reexamined, but I dont think the answer to the Nats question is simply a blanket assertion that all heavy rail transit should be 24/7. IIRC, you want a much more extensive metrorail system. That would make 24/7 operation even more expensive.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Sep 11, 2012 12:47 pm • link • report

@thm
In Boston, MBTA says "In the event the game runs late, a public announcement and a posting will be made on the jumbo screen at Fenway Park advising customers that the last train will depart Kenmore Square Station at 12:10 A.M." So the fans would be just as stranded and there's not even an option where the Red Sox could keep the T open if they wanted to.
They may just not have a formal policy:
http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=62985&sid=4ebf9dd3b0cab8cc81f009684aec64db

by MLD on Sep 11, 2012 12:53 pm • link • report

@mphs: Incidentally, you may already know this, but I only learned recently that Metro charges peak fares after midnight when they're open late:

Peak Fares (in effect weekdays from opening to 9:30 am and 3-7 pm and weekends midnight to closing)

Seems like they should also be charging them when they're open after midnight during the week. I wonder if they have a policy on that.

by Gray on Sep 11, 2012 3:21 pm • link • report

@ AWalkerInTheCity:the main costs of a highway are capital, land, maintenance. Incremental operating costs are small (essentially state police), and late night usage (by trucks for example) relatively high.

And those trucks do the most damage to the road. Remember that road damage goes by the fourth power.

By contrast, airports, which are also public infrastructure seldom operate 24/7.

That's not because airlines and passengers do not want to fly late (or at night), but because NIMBYs do not want noise at night (which may be a legitimate point). I bet airlines would LOVE to be able to fly later in case of delays in stead of cancelling flights or delaying them to the next day and putting people in hotels.

Some auto ferries are not not 24/7. And most rail transit systems in the US are not.

True. Most auto ferries are not in major metropolitan areas. Most rail systems aren't either.

I am not convinced. Metro should run 24/7 (if only hourly at night). The problem with late games should not exist.

by Jasper on Sep 11, 2012 9:02 pm • link • report

Jasper: Except in very rare cases, even airport curfews only apply to scheduled service; if the flight is late, it can generally land later.

The biggest reason there aren't flights late at night is most people don't want to fly in the middle of the night. But there certainly are cross-country redeyes late at night, so planes actually are flying 24-7.

by David Alpert on Sep 11, 2012 10:01 pm • link • report

I was referring to airports, not the airspace. My point being that the implication that because we don't close highways at night, it makes sense to keep transit open at night, is not correct. We do close infrastructure at night, when the cost is high and the benefit does not match it. Highways are not closed at night because there is no reason to.

Maybe keeping metrorail open 24/7 would make sense - but thats not shown by pointing to I395 being open 24/7. The case would be made by analyzing potential ridership, economic impacts, and incremental costs. Our free spending european friend has not addressed those.

by AWalkerInTheCity on Sep 11, 2012 10:58 pm • link • report

@ AWalkerInTheCity:Our free spending european friend has not addressed those.

Not here, but I have in the past. There are many examples of major cites in the world where transit runs fine 24/7, even in smaller cities than DC.

I do not have studies available. Don't know if they have been done. Regardless, there are many examples of successful night service. Considering the low quality of taxi service in DC, it should not be hard to make it a success here.

Also, regarding the alleged free-spending part of my character: I am in a weird position. Like Washingtonians, I am taxed by the American government without representation. In fact, I get an even worse deal than Washingtonians, I don't get to vote at all here. Unlike most people, I do get representation without taxation in my home parliament and the monster parliament in Brussels and Strasbourg. The result is that American government spends my money freely without my input, not the other way around. ;-)

by Jasper on Sep 12, 2012 9:34 am • link • report