I'm sorry, I just find the constantly floated idea of extending the Green Line to BWI infuriating. The cost numbers for such a link are staggering. BWI already has a rail link -- MARC via the northeast corridor. I'm not an expert, but I have to believe that you could add enough extra capacity to the NE corridor, and even build a people-mover to connect the terminal to the BWI Rail station, for less than building out the Green Line.

by jfruh on Feb 13, 2009 2:15 pm • link • report

Er, by "enough extra capacity" I meant "enough extra capacity to get metro-quality headways".

Seriously, I think part of the problem is that people in North America are unable to conceive of getting 20-minute-or-better rail headways out of anything other than a metro system. I think it would be very eye-opening for those folks to ride the RER in Paris or S-Bahn in Berlin, where what began as standard commuter railroads were evolved into systems that offer sub-10-minute headways in the city center. I think it would be huge if we could get MARC up to, say, 20-minute headways all day and have trains actually going through from MD to VA.

by jfruh on Feb 13, 2009 2:19 pm • link • report

Here's a thought--why not build a light rail system from King Street Metro Station to the National Harbor? I'm sure there would be a lot of interest from Old Town businesses and certainly from Gaylord. After all, there's no Metro access to Old Town right now and basically no public transit to National Harbor. They could run the whole thing down King Street and then over the Wilson Bridge. Eventually it could be part of the purple line, but until then they could replace the wheels on those trolleys they have.

by Phil on Feb 13, 2009 2:29 pm • link • report

jfruh: I wouldn't mind waiting 20 minutes for a train to the airport, but let's face it--MARC doesn't work if you're trying to get to BWI. I'd love to see a system like they have in Paris or Berlin, but as it is, we don't have weekend service or anything outside of commuting hours. That's why we think we need Metros everywhere, and we're right.

Does anyone really think that the Dulles rail project is going to save time over taking the bus if you have to make all the stops along the way?

by Phil on Feb 13, 2009 2:35 pm • link • report

Phil, you're missing my point. I'm not saying that people who want Metro-level service to BWI should suck it up and take MARC; I'm saying that the current NE corridor route to BWI can be upgraded to Metro-level service at a fraction of the cost of building an entirely new Metro line.

Yes, current levels of MARC service to BWI aren't up to Metro standards. But you could bring those levels up to snuff by buying more railcars and building some passing tracks to add capacity to the line. You could run it all day, on weekends, and brand it as something other than MARC if that's a stumbling block. It would still cost lest than the staggering price tag for acquiring right-of-way and laying down infrastructure for a new Metro line.

by jfruh on Feb 13, 2009 2:49 pm • link • report

Re: Phil's comment. It's true. Few people will take the Silver line all the way to Dulles airport. Perhaps from Tysons, but not from farther in. It just takes way too long. As long as the access road is free flowing (which it will likely remain, a taxi is just way, way quicker and even the W. Flyer from W. Falls Church would be a much quicker option along with the 5A Metrobus.

Obviously they aren't going to do this, but if they made the Dulles line 3 tracks wide instead of 2, it could make all the difference (4 even better, but 3 adds enormous flexibility). Then they could run express trains that might compete.

by Steve on Feb 13, 2009 2:55 pm • link • report

MARC would need to dedicate three higher speed trainsets to daily runs of Union Station to BWI to Penn Station (and maybe New Carollton) and you could get 20 minute headways all day long.

Metro extended on the Green Line to BWI is a $$$$$$ proposition compared to purchasing three extra trainsets (if even necessary)

by NikolasM on Feb 13, 2009 3:00 pm • link • report

jfruh: I'm not missing your point--I'm just trying to explain the mindset. In a perfect world, the MARC and VRE would run at 10-20 minute intervals on weekdays and 30 minute intervals on weekends. They'd also have a VRE that went to Dulles instead of a Metro. Unfortunately, that "perfect world" doesn't exist--at least not on this side of the Atlantic. I used to live in Germany, so I know what good commuter rail can be. The regional and national trains come more often than our pathetic MARC and VRE.

The problem is this: even if we could convince MD and VA to start running commuter rail services outside of commuting times, they would end up cutting them the second there was a budget problem or they could demonstrate that ridership was lower than they like. They would also have to pay a lot more in fees to the people who own the rails, which they don't want to do.

by Phil on Feb 13, 2009 3:30 pm • link • report

Phil, I guess I just don't get why you think it would be harder to change that mindset than it would be to take years to build and run a much, much more expensive (and redundant) Metro line.

Hell, you don't even have to put MD or VA in the loop, if you're so convinced that they'll bail at the first sign of trouble -- MARC and VRE are just paying Amtrak and CSX to operate their services, after all, so you might as well just have WMATA pay to operate the supplemental service. In the end, money talks, and it would be so much cheaper.

Of course, one of the dysfunctional things about transit in this country is that if localities are lucky, they can extract big lump sums from the Feds for construction, but then are stuck with the bills for running the systems themselves. It would perversely be politically easier to cut extra service on a "pre-existing" line like the NE Corridor (even if you invested in it to expand service) than it would be on a less cost effective brand-new Metro line.

by jfruh on Feb 13, 2009 3:43 pm • link • report

Streetcars on Rhode Island Ave?? Any links to more information about this ?? Timelines etc..

thanks..

by C on Feb 13, 2009 3:49 pm • link • report

jfruh: I'm not advocating the Metro extension. I'm just saying that the reason people think that Metro has to do it is because MARC is the reality we know. You're right--it makes more sense to offer regular services on MARC. In fact, I really don't see why MTA can't run the Penn line from Union Station to Penn Station at regular intervals. I would think they could sustain enough ridership between two major cities and an airport on weekends.

The whole thought process really bugs me, but I understand the mindset that says that if we don't have a Metro line, we won't be able to get there when it's convenient.

by Phil on Feb 13, 2009 4:23 pm • link • report

When I went to UMD I went to pick someone up from Dulles. There was bad traffic (duh) and a couple accidents on the way. The whole trip took 3.5 hours. From college park to dulles silver line, it would be much quicker, especially during rush hour. Also, if you are on the Metro anyway to get to one of those buses, again it would be much quicker to just stay on the Metro rather than get off and wait for the bus.

by JBE on Feb 13, 2009 5:42 pm • link • report

In my mind, BWI is much farther away than Dulles, but according to Google, it's not much: 31 mi from Metro Center vs. 27. Either way, it's a hike from the center of the system. But the Silver Line's already on its way -- I won't kick that horse.

However, BWI has something Dulles doesn't: existing rail service. MARC service is insufficient (it's minimal outside rush hour and non-existent on weekends) but as has been mentioned, I bet you could run 30 minute headways weeklong from Union Station to BWI, filling in the Penn Line gaps during the week, for a lot less than acquiring ROW, building tracks and stations, etc. In the long term, Metro to BWI could be an option, but expanding the existing rail link seems a lot cheaper, if we're sure there's demand (or we could induce demand) for it. It doesn't have to be through the MTA -- WMATA could do it and either run it itself or (probably cheaper) contract with MTA for the service.

Meanwhile, improving the B30 bus to BWI would be great. Taking it the airport around holidays or other busy travel times is a mess. IIRC, it also has a low cost recovery, probably on account of charging $3 for a 30 minute ride. I understand Metro wants to keep fares low in general, but c'mon, these riders are going to the airport -- they can afford it. As long as the prices don't get too high, to where driving/parking or another means of getting there is more competitive, you won't lose much traffic on that bus. Bump it to $5 in exchange for 30 minute headways and some extra service around busy travel times. (It's $6 for the MARC, which I don't think is much faster.)

by Gavin Baker on Feb 13, 2009 6:13 pm • link • report

Driving on Kenilworth Ave (before it splits off to join 295/BW Parkway), I've always felt that the addition of a light rail from the College Park/Riversale region down through Bladensburg, Brookland and Eastern DC towards Union Station would spur new development. This part of the city, at least the northern section of Kenilworth in Riverdale, reminds me a bit of South Boulevard in Charlotte, N.C., before they built the new light rail system. As it stands now, Kenilworth is lined with run down strip malls, junk car lots, liquor stores and warehouses (see the intersection of 201 and 450). Now, with the addition of the light rail, the South Boulevard side of Charlotte is seeing a definite revival in terms of urban development (at least until the recession kicked in). Perhaps one of these 'brown lines' down Kenilworth / Rhode Island Ave. would be the spark the area needs to begin redevelopment.

by S on Feb 13, 2009 6:35 pm • link • report

Not that long ago, the Wapo in the story about opening the second side of the Wilson bridge said that the sixth lane on the bridge was either for transit or for HOT lanes.

Someone, either PG or Alexandria, needs to get rail on that bridge or we'll end up with HOT lanes all the way round the Beltway.

by jim on Feb 13, 2009 8:52 pm • link • report

I thought I'd give my stance on the Green Line extension... I don't know how I feel about it going all the way out to BWI, but the preferred alignment continues along the CSX Tracks to MD-32 and then cuts over to Odenton. I'd be perfectly happy with an extension that ended there. It would serve the transit starved Route 1 corridor and then the completely transit-deficient NSA and Fort Meade, home to a combined 50,000 workers. The section proposed by PG County will undoubtedly induce TOD (something MARC does not do anywhere on its system) and create a stronger transit corridor between Baltimore and Washington.

But for the record, I don't give a darn if it goes all the way to BWI. That's Baltimore's Airport, let their local transit cover it. The Light Rail doesn't cover National or Dulles.

by Dave Murphy on Feb 14, 2009 5:33 am • link • report

A couple notes.

- First, Green Line extensions to Laurel and Brandywine, and a Blue Line extension from Largo to Bowie, were all considered "Future Extensions" on the METRO Adopted Regional System in 1968.

- Second, regarding the argument of METRO vs. MARC extending northeast towards BWI, keep in mind that MARC's own expansion plan for the Penn Line will require 4-tracking between New Carollton and BWI. Furthermore, there will need to be coordination with Amtrak and any expansion plans they have in the corridor.

So yeah, expanding MARC service along the Penn may be cheaper than extending the Green Line past Greenbelt. But it's by no means cheap itself.

by Froggie on Feb 14, 2009 6:37 pm • link • report

Correct me if you know something less ancient, but the ARS called for an orange line route to Bowie, didn't it? I suppose that either line would work, but that is what they wanted in the 1960s.

As to the Green Line to Fort Meade and BWI, I considered that when I did my transit map, but it seemed both very distant and redundant to existing services, as people have mentioned. I can't imagine that the costs of seizing property to build a new route would be less than simply expanding in the existing Amtrak right of way.

by цarьchitect on Feb 14, 2009 7:48 pm • link • report

Tsar: you're right...I was recalling the preliminary ARS from 1967. The approved 1968 ARS had the Orange Line from Ardmore being extended to Bowie.

As I mentioned earlier, expanding in the Amtrak ROW probably would indeed be cheaper than extending the Green Line on new ROW. But my point is that between the extra trackage, and the likelihood of having to redo both overhead bridges and the overhead power lines, expanding the Penn Line MARC service involves a lot more than just buying some new train sets.

by Froggie on Feb 14, 2009 10:07 pm • link • report

Froggie,

When the Pennsylvania Railroad did the electrification to the NEC back in the 1930s it was done to accommodate a fourth track. Little modification would be need to be done to the existing catenary to put in the fourth track. All of the bridges that cross the NEC between Landover and south Baltimore are built to accommodate a fourth track. The only things that would need to be modified to accommodate a fourth track are the station that have platforms built on the part of the easement set aside for the fourth track.

Let it be understood that the future extension of the D Route Orange shown on the 1968 ARS showed the line paralleling the NEC to old Bowie not along MD US-50.

by Sand Box John on Feb 15, 2009 7:39 am • link • report

My remarks are more relevant to Part 1, which criticized P.G.'s auto-oriented mentality. I work in P.G. (Suitland) Cars are a luxury in that area and give their owners a sense of entitlement, even to the point of abusing pedestrians. I used to hitch a ride to Suitland in the a.m. and walk from Suitland Pkwy and Silver Hill Rd. to work. One day, I received the same comment in two separate instances: "Move your f***ing a**!" The first was a young woman, whose entry to the Suitland Pkwy on-ramp was delayed a second or so by my passage. The second was from a 30-ish male _passenger_ on Silver Hill Rd., with whom I was not interfering at all. He even stuck his head and shoulders out the window to make his point, as it were. I don't think my fair complexion helped.

When P.G.'s politicians adopt auto-oriented policies, they are merely responding to their wealthier constituents. (Poor bus riders, of whom there are plenty, are less likely to vote and contribute to campaigns.)

by Chuck Coleman on Feb 15, 2009 8:00 am • link • report

there will not be metro to BWI, even with Fort Meade, they don't have the 200,000 office jobs in the Tyson's-Reston-Dulles corridor that can support the ridership projections for the Silver Line

by David on Feb 15, 2009 8:43 am • link • report

John: thanks, I didn't know for sure, which is why I thought it was likely (but not 100% needed).

On a somewhat related note, regarding PGC's proposal for LRT from Branch Ave south towards Waldorf, it should be noted that Charles County's 2006 Comprehensive Plan proposes an extension of that LRT line south to La Plata.

by Froggie on Feb 15, 2009 12:31 pm • link • report

If you want to improve on the inside-the-beltway passenger service, you may want to think about the possibilities of having a transit authority either buying the existing freight rail tracks outright or constructing additional freight rail tracks far outside the Beltway, and trading them to CSX for the inner RoW. Most of it doesn't have to stop in DC. A bypass for freight rail does not create as much of an expansionary development pattern (you might add a few sidings for local industry in planned locations) as adding outside-the-beltway commuter rail or outside-the-beltway freeways.

by Squalish on Feb 15, 2009 3:16 pm • link • report

Squalish, since you mention that, are you familiar with this NCPC study on the railway relocation issue?

by Froggie on Feb 15, 2009 5:16 pm • link • report

I doubt that there will be any investments by MARC in the foreseeable future. A green line to BWI would make sense if it addressed the Fort Meade corridor. The rest of this seems like fantasy. PG is very car-centric and desperate for conventional development. National Harbor is emblematic of that and I suspect that it will be decline in the next 5 years--the idea of planning transit there would be a waste of money. The location is inconvenient for many in the region and seems unlikely to spur real development. It sits between a fairly well off part of the County and one that has seen better days; it will not help the latter or save the former. It would have made more sense to build this someplace like College Park.

by Rich on Feb 15, 2009 6:55 pm • link • report

Froggie:

No I was not, thanks. I traced out the potential of what they call the Dahlgren Line a few months ago - the isolated RoW is very attractive for cheap long-term extension of the Northeast Corridor to include Richmond & Hampton Roads, both for limited-stop freight and limited-stop HSR. Every track-mile you add here makes industrial development in the Washington-Baltimore area easier, and makes the Beltway less crowded with trucks, in addition to the obvious freeing of the local freight railways.

Also, their larger map has an alternative alignment mentioned on this site which shows the first step in making MARC an essential part of our city's urban/suburban transportation network.

by Squalish on Feb 15, 2009 11:38 pm • link • report

The problem with CSX going back to the Old Main Line is the tunnels. The tunnels would have to be completely redone in order to allow for double-stack containers.

by Froggie on Feb 16, 2009 7:01 am • link • report

Froggie,

The light rail plans made by Prince George's and Charles County can trace their roots back to WMATA's Transit Service Expansion Plan of 04 1999.

I will note that the 1968 ARS showed a future extension of the F Route beyond Branch Avenue. The Branch Avenue station was located on the east side Branch Avenue between Beach Road and Auth Way on that map. The extension crossed Branch Avenue heading southwest to the Capitol Beltway then paralleled the Capitol Beltway on the north side to just west of Saint Barnabas Road and turned south skirting past the east side of the Rosecroft Raceway then headed south southeast off the map 'To Brandywine'.

by Sand Box John on Feb 16, 2009 8:06 am • link • report

@Froggie - is that an insurmountable problem? Is it anything like the cost, say, of adding an express Metrorail track from Union Station to Silver Spring to Kensington to White Flint to Shady Grove to Gaithersburg to Germantown? I'm not being rhetorical.

@Dave Murphy - If you got your Green Line termination at the NSA, and none of these plans for a freight bypass proved feasable... it could also be a transfer station to a commuter or light rail line which runs from BWI-Hanover-Arundel Mills-Fort Meade defense contractor area - NSA - Fort Meade - Odenton - Bowie - Upper Marlboro - Brandywine-Waldorf - La Plata. If they do go through, you could tack a 10,000 space parking lot in Fredericksburg onto the end of that and confine it to limited commuter service.

by Squalish on Feb 17, 2009 6:34 am • link • report

Not insurmountable, but it does add cost to the idea, especially if track straigtening is also required.

by Froggie on Feb 17, 2009 8:00 am • link • report