Comments on LA's Orange Line shows the way for Montgomery BRT - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by Oscar

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:46:31 EDT

Yeah, I'll have to agree - taking the Orange line is a real drag. I don't think it is at all fast. It seems to be way too crowded to be of any comfort. It's just a bus, of course with ROW, but still. The bike path however, is amazing. Light rail should have been used, but of course, that isn't happening anytime soon.

Comment by Bob

Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:47:33 EDT

anyone who thinks the Orange line is a great idea have probably never ridden it. the ride is horrible, bouncing and jostling every which way. noisy vehicles and tight interiors. with wheelwells all over the place.
the only thing that makes it work is the exclusive right of way and without that it is just a bus, we got a lot of those and few who ride them wants them over rail I don't think.
bottom line, I ride Metro, in Baltimore and LA I ride light rail. in Montgomery county I would probably ride light rail but BRT, I'll drive instead.

Bob

Comment by Richard Layman

Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:55:17 EDT

MDE -- that's the same with the transitways in PGH. A person in another entry mentioned Ed Tennyson, who has written a lot about BRT failure to achieve stated ridership numbers. There are problems with "BRT" in PGH--no prepayment primarily--but the reality is that it's fast, just that people don't ride it.

WRT points, my understanding is that anything less than 15000 riders day you wouldn't do LR, and frankly anything less than 30000-40000 riders/day doesn't really justify the expense of LR, especially over long distances. While Denver and Dallas get lots of props for their LR system, it sure doesn't seem to have much in the way of ridership, comparatively speaking. I guess it's all relative, but just think if those investments were put into Baltimore and other cities where you could reap high ridership instead.

Comment by MDE

Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:11:29 EDT

The reason the Orange Line in LA works is because it's built on an abandoned rail ROW. It shows the way not for MoCo's BRT but instead for the Purple Line.

Comment by Richard Layman

Tue, 23 Oct 2012 07:03:40 EDT

31,000 on one line drawing from 1.7 million potential ridership isn't all that much if you consider all the sweeteners (separated guideway, etc.). DC's highest bus ridership buslines--30s,S,70s,90s,X, maybe 50s--all get about 15,000 daily riders.

JJJ -- maximum legal bus length in public ROW is 60 feet. It's possible that FTA might allow an 80 foot bus if the transit way is separated and there are no crossings with regular roads, I don't know.

It's been decades since I've been to Disney Parks, but my understanding is that on those private "campuses" they do use the 80 foot long Van Hool buses.

Comment by JJJ

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:08:56 EDT

I love the "it's too crowded, nobody rides it" comments.

You know, you dont need rails embedded in the ground to run longer vehicles right? The rail doesnt magically allow you to add 50 feet to the length of your vehicle.

If the articulated buses are getting crowded, then buy a bi-articulated bus thats 20 feet longer.

Congestion solved.

Comment by Mark LA

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:01:50 EDT

BRT is an excellent alternative when there isn't much demand for public transit. But if your ridership is going to be in the tens of thousands, like the Orange Line (currently over 30K daily riders), then buses just can't meet the demand. Be sure you know your demographics before spending hundreds of million on a project that will do little for the community, like the orange line did for Los Angeles.

Comment by Ben

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:42:53 EDT

Good post. I hope you write another one about LA's subways and light rail. We were in LA for 4-5 days over Labor Day weekend and only drove once. I think LA's rail network compares favorably to metro here in DC. A day pass is $5 in LA vs. $14 here in DC. All the escalators in the stations seemed to work fine. The headways were decent. The stations and the rail cars were clean. LA's heavy and light rail system is also surprisingly extensive.

Regarding the bus, we took the Big Blue bus from LA to Santa Monica one day. Admittedly, it was over a holiday weekend but it was very convenient and reliable.

Comment by Gull

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:57:30 EDT

it seems the study done by ITDP could play well into some of the discussion on this and other threads regarding the BRT. Some of the corridors such as US 29 never really can work as a typical BRT, because it's a limited access highway to start with, and other corridors such as Connecticut Avenue have such low density along much of the route, that stations would not be serving as much more than transfer points. These low density lower bus ridership corridors should have more 'extra' or 'express' buses. If there is traffic on the corridor it would not get you to your destination 'quicker' but it would not be any slower than driving either, which the current system is much slower than driving. The corridors like Georgia Ave and Rockville Pike which have high use along the existing corridor, providing physical improvements to the road and creating a true BRT makes more cost effective sense.

The County knows where it wants to urbanize (inside the Beltway, Wheaton, the 355/270 corridor) and should focus the high quality BRT in those areas. I have a car but will often opt for transit when I don't want to be the person responsible for driving in traffic or finding parking, and would opt even more often with small improvements to the network with more limited stop service. We should see the push for BRT as more of a thought provoking mechanism for improving transportation options, not as the planning Bible that has to be implemented without change.

Comment by charlie

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:50:04 EDT

Sorry, let me be a bit clearer: If you want BRT station in DC you need climate control. LA should be fine if you have shade and maybe a fan.

Comment by Alex B.

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:37:34 EDT

I'd think in this area you'd want station that are enclosed and have climate control.

In Southern California? No. There's no humidity there. Provide some shade and you'll be fine.

Comment by dan reed!

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:34:54 EDT

@drumz

I totally agree, though of course the issue becomes where those 25 or whatever miles go, and that will be politically difficult to do - after all, everyone was promised a BRT line in their neighborhood, and it'll be hard to say (even with the right reasoning) that Rockville Pike gets one, but Georgia Avenue and Columbia Pike don't, for instance.

@charlie

Maybe. It was 89 and sunny when I was in LA last week, so it was pretty nice underneath the station canopy. It's also drier than it is here, so it doesn't get all muggy and oppressive when it's hot.

Of course, that may just be my Northeastern bias; Jarrett Walker suggests that the novelty of sunshine has worn off on Angelenos, so perhaps more shelter is needed.

Comment by Aimee Custis

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:34:15 EDT

I have to say, charlie, that I expected I would want enclosed, climate-controlled stations, that when I rode (a few days after Dan), that all in all, I didn't yearn for A/C the way I was expecting to.

Comment by Jasper

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:33:26 EDT

Sounds like LA did it right and made the buses a real alternative to driving.

Comment by charlie

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:27:26 EDT

I'd think in this area you'd want station that are enclosed and have climate control.

Comment by drumz

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:12:26 EDT

It seems like the key to this success (and the other ones we've read) is the separate ROW. Only that can allow the speeds necessary to become competitive to driving. If MoCo isn't serious about separating ROW then it isn't serious about BRT.

Kind of analogous to CABI (though the capital costs are much higher) that it is/was better to concentrate service in a few areas and then expand. If MoCo only has money for 25 miles of separate ROW vs. 50 miles of mix then it will see more return on the 25 miles.

Comment by John P

Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:01:36 EDT

The Orange line was supposed to be light rail, but because of a light rail and subway moratorium (since overturned), it became a busway. Unfortunately the Valley gets the busway, while the suburban towns about 40 miles east of LA will get light rail.

The Orange line is severely overcrowded, and could benefit from a conversion to light rail.