Comments on Invest in transportation to enhance places, not bypass them - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by MLD

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 17:32:28 EDT

@Froggie

Yep!

Comment by Froggie

Sat, 27 Oct 2012 00:55:06 EDT

MLD: sounds like Wiscasset.

Comment by mcs

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:15:33 EDT

It's interesting the Carmel, IN Keystone Avenue project came up in the comments. I have been advocated for a bypass/express bus project in Manassas that uses elements of the Keystone project.

http://novarapidtransit.org/VA28Bypass-FlatBranchTollRoad_May2012.pdf

http://g.co/maps/reaas

Comment by Joe H.

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:55:17 EDT

For anyone interested in the Carmel, IN roundabouts.

Construction video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei6GMmMAvmE

City Gov infomation: http://www.carmel.in.gov/index.aspx?page=123

Comment by Tom Coumaris

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:19:32 EDT

I think the fact they lasted such a short time shows other people noticed they didn't work well there too.

Comment by selxic

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 14:58:52 EDT

I'm not arguing for or against roundabouts, diamonds or any other method, but I went through the Arundel Mills Boulevard roundabout on nearly a daily basis and never saw an accident, Tom Coumaris. An accident every other time you were present is a statistical abnormality. Were you perhaps the culprit?

Comment by Tom Coumaris

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 14:05:52 EDT

Story and video about Arundel Mills roundabouts being changed to better "Divulging Diamonds"

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2011/06/03/new-traffic-design-proposed-to-curb-arundel-slots-traffic/

Doesn't hurt to keep up on alternatives and not assume one size fits all.

Comment by Jasper

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:12:45 EDT

@ MLD:Streetcars/Metro from the Mall all the way to Gilbert's Corner? Sorry, that just seems like wasted transit infrastructure to me.

Ok, what is your solution for the massive congestion on US-50 east of Gilbert's Corner and on US-15 south of Gilbert's Corner to Warrenton? US-50 is being widened and that will not help. Yet the area is growing fast.

Comment by Nose Straw

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:04:51 EDT

The Carmel/Keystone roundabout project is particularly impressive because it satisfied the interests of two local factions who began the process in conflict: auto-oriented commuters who wanted to see Keystone upgraded to be a freeway with exits for the major cross-streets; and neighborhood groups who opposed the footprint of traditional exits intruding into their portions of the community (and some of whom wanted to improve connectivity across Keystone by foot/bicycle).

Comment by Tom Coumaris

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:55:04 EDT

Those Arundel Mills roundabouts were disasters from the beginning, well before the casino. Out of maybe 30 times I went through them I saw cars hit other cars maybe half the time. Those roundabouts only lasted about a year I think.

I like the idea of roundabouts generally. But that one stunk.

Comment by Joe H

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:38:39 EDT

Jason- I agree. The Carmel, IN Keystone Avenue project is the most innovative use of roundabouts and major highway coversion there is.

Comment by Theo16

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:30:22 EDT

The Gilbert's Corner roundabouts are a huge improvement over the old traffic light during rush hour, but they slow things down considerably at other times. I think, in general, that it's a pretty fair tradeoff.

But that doesn't mean it's the perfect solution everywhere. Places where the road is already more than one lane each way might not see as much improvement at rush hour and would still experience the slowdown the rest of the time.

Comment by Jason

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:19:12 EDT

Not sure this is "innovative," but it was a prudent choice nonetheless. Innovative (on a US scale at least) would be the Keystone Ave project in Carmel, IN. People should be looking at that and other Carmel projects for good examples of the impact of using roundabouts instead of traffic lights and/or wider roads.

Comment by selxic

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:51:26 EDT

I never had problems with the roundabout that was on Arundel Mills Boulevard nor did I witness any problems there before they changed the intersection, Tom Coumaris.

Comment by charlie

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:46:56 EDT

Agreed. Roundabouts are great. Not sure why Tom doesn't think so.

Are there buses to Winchester on 50?

Comment by MLD

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:44:33 EDT

Bypasses in general are a tough nut to crack. There are so many factors:
If there is a lot of traffic where you want to build a bypass, what is the nature of that traffic? Is it mostly through-traffic? Or is it traffic generated by the place you want to bypass? Is that through-traffic seasonal or every day? What kind of economic growth does the traffic produce and how does that coincide with what we want to produce?

Growing up in coastal Maine, I saw the effects of bypass planning first hand. US Rt 1 is the main coastal road and used to wind through lots of little towns. In the 70s, due to increased summer traffic, the road was realigned and bypasses were built around many of these small towns. The road was still kept as two lanes (one in each direction) but shoulders were widened and the road no longer passed through these small downtown areas. One town fought a bypass tooth-and-nail, saying it would kill business there. Fast forward 30-40 years and the town that didn't build a bypass is economically depressed compared to the other centers that were bypassed. Locals avoid it on summer weekends because it is choked with through-traffic, and it's not a pleasant walkable place because of the traffic.

Just a story to illustrate different scenarios. I think lots of the bypass projects we talk about though (e.g. Charlottesville) are mostly people thinking that there is way more through-traffic mucking things up than there really is - lots of that traffic is people going from one place to another within the city!

Streetcars/Metro from the Mall all the way to Gilbert's Corner? Sorry, that just seems like wasted transit infrastructure to me. We need to encourage densification and growth in places where there is transit already (like VRE corridors), not enable more nowhere sprawl 40 miles out.

Comment by Jasper

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:12:54 EDT

The roundabouts are fantastic. I like the traffic calming stuff in Aldie, which to many was a speed trap.

The problem is that US-50 is being widened with added traffic lights just east of there. US-50 needs transit all the way from the Mall to Gilbert's Corner. Streetcars or metro.

A problem that has not been addressed though is that US-50 narrows to two lanes from Aldie to Middleburg, only to widen up to Winchester and further. If the area east of Gilbert's Corner keeps growing as it is, no roundabouts will fix congestion there.

Comment by Another Andrew

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:06:28 EDT

Tom, statistically roundabouts are still one of the safest ways to reduce congestion for areas without substantial volumes. (IE typically a great resolution for towns outside of a metropolitan area and rural areas)

Maryland is actually a model for roundabout designs reducing collisions and fatalities.

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/resources/casestudies/fhwasa09018/fhwasa09018ppt.cfm

I think these designs are a wonderful fit for this section of Virginia. It's really just a mental state that people fear about entering roundabouts since they're not so common elsewhere, but if one is suddenly dropped in place and the local public gets used to how their roundabout operates, they're very convenient and easy to get through for most citizens.

The roundabout design was changed at the Arundel Mills interchange because of the arrival of the Casino. Their tenants thought increased traffic would overwhelm the interchange so they contracted to change it. It would have been just fine otherwise.

http://www.marylandlivecasino.com/assets/PDFs/DDI-news-release4.28.12-FINAL.pdf

Comment by Froggie

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:55:12 EDT

As I understand it, the Gilberts Corner roundabouts do work better. Plus the connector road allows folks going between 15 South and 50 East to bypass the main intersection.

Comment by Tom Coumaris

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:44:44 EDT

Roundabouts can be nightmares. VA could look to MD's experiences, especially the roundabouts on 295 at Arundel Mills which were a disaster and quickly abandoned. Hopefully Gilbert's Corner works better.

Comment by Jeff

Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:31:09 EDT

The obvious answer is that Virginia must do both.