Comments on Now sprawl will save the planet, say Outer Beltway boosters - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by Barrymore

Mon, 05 Nov 2012 08:03:42 EDT

Aug, this is terrible. More sprawl will definitely *not* be beneficial. We need to be building more mass transit and alternative transportation infrastructure, not more highways. In the meantime, we can all carpool together more often to cut down on carbon emissions, traffic and costs: http://us.amovens.com/en/rideshare/washington-d.c./

Comment by Jim Long

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 11:36:03 EDT

There are other rural areas often overlooked in this discussion that would be devastated by an Outer Beltway. Think south! Unlike the north, where a new Potomac bridge would meet resistance from Montgomery County, in the south we have Charles County, Maryland. Plans are already moving ahead for expanding the Nice Bridge. The Outer Beltway also has an option for a new bridge just south of Mattawoman Creek (Option E2-a). Either way, this stellar Chesapeake Bay tributary is on the chopping block, because land-use plans exploit highways for the profit of speculators, rather than protecting our environment, and hence the quality of life of citizens. Charles County is presently revising its land-use plan. The speculator-controlled Planning Commission has rejected Smart Growth plans proposed by county staff--with strong public support--and is instead adhering to business as usual. A Virginia megadeveloper has even started to make inroads over here. Congestion on the Wilson Bridge that would ensue if a gambling casino were allowed at National Harbor also points to the southern option. The sad thing is, most people don't want land-use plans that cater to developers, but feel powerless in the face of their influence and money. But with enough public education about Smart Growth, it could be turned around.

Comment by Falls Church

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 11:01:56 EDT

1. I have not heard they want to finance it with only a 5% state contribution2. If Im in Fairfax, and this road will do net harm to Fairfax's economic future, by encouraging more low density development in PWC and southern LoCo that competes with FFX (not to mention the GHG implications), why would I want even one cent of the money we send to richmond used for this? When we have many unmet needs?

I'm jist saying IF they can finance it locally, then they can build it. If not, then they can't. As for kicking in 5% from the state, other parts of VA did that for the Silver Line (which makes fairfax more attractive relative to other parts of VA) so its reasonable that they should also receive 5% state funding for their project. If the state never funds a project that helps one part of the state more than another, they'll never fund anything.

Comment by Stewart Schwartz

Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:41:59 EDT

Jeff: One of many problems with the outer beltway and some of the other highway expansions is that they divert funds needed to improve local road networks.

In terms of traffic solutions for Fairfax as the county grows, the benefit of compact, transit-oriented redevelopment of the commercial corridors is that the new residents and those who downsize from their single family homes will not only use transit, but they will walk and bike more and take shorter car trips. Transit will work effectively within and between these centers.

But yes, it will be hard to serve suburban neighborhoods with transit not as much because of the road network, but because of how spread out they are. Suburban residents would need to walk or bike to the main arterial bus routes to make these work well.

As for your reference to Potomac bridge crossings, the main need is a transit connection along the Am Legion Bridge corridor to connect the Silver Line and Red Line (Tysons and White Flint). Most of our traffic involves local commuters during the peak hour and focusing on that traffic should be the priority -- with transit key for moving more people in the peak hour. Back in the early 2000's Cong Wolf commissioned a study which showed that an upriver highway bridge would harm too many neighborhoods between Ffx and MoCo and Loudoun and MoCo.

Comment by jeff parnes

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:09:23 EDT

I don't understand - rail or increased density is not always the solution, especially in Fairfax County. We no longer have a spokes of a wheel commuting situation in Fairfax, but more of a spider net, and our road network needs to support that. What would benefit the county is a reliable network of crossing bus routes, but until our secondary road network is improved so as to allow bus transport, it wouldn't work.

Just think of buses feeding our current and future Metro stops. Can you see them on Hunters Mill Road, on Lawyers Road, on and on?

People don't take mass transit cause it's not convenient and it's not convenient because we don't have a road network that will support it.

There is also a need for a connection between Fairfax and Montgomery counties, and probably Prince William and its across the river neighbor. Forcing interstate traffic to have to use core arterial roadways does no good for either the local or the through traffic.

Comment by drumz

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:02:36 EDT

Yeah, its not so much the financing of an outer beltway that I'm concerned about its about the externalities that mean that Fairfax (and other localities)won't be able to actually go to solving congestion problems and improving commutes.

And as I said, for the cost of the outer beltway you could put in A LOT of improvements to the existing transportation infrastructure here in fairfax and help the people already living in the densest parts of the county.

Comment by AWalkerInTheCity

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 14:47:43 EDT

"If the outer beltway can be paid for like the Silver Line -- with no more than a 5% contribution from the state, and the rest paid for by local governments and tolls -- then they have every right to build it. "

1. I have not heard they want to finance it with only a 5% state contribution

2. If Im in Fairfax, and this road will do net harm to Fairfax's economic future, by encouraging more low density development in PWC and southern LoCo that competes with FFX (not to mention the GHG implications), why would I want even one cent of the money we send to richmond used for this? When we have many unmet needs?

Comment by Thomas Hardman

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 14:29:16 EDT

Recently I took a pleasant drive out to the far end of I-66, and turned south to get onto old US-11 exiting at Strausburg. I was road-testing a new car and thought I'd drive down some pleasant country roads to take in a bit of the hill country and rural America.

Lo and behold, what do I see? An immense development chock full of the Biggest McMansions Evar. Nearly as big as the White House, each and every one of all approximately 800 of them.

I drove around a bit more, and a bit more.

You don't have to drive far to find such developments... yet no matter how far you drive, there's one such development not far away.

I'm just sayin'... the Sprawl is already there.

Comment by Jasper

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:17:21 EDT

we are beyond essentializing over what makes DC a city and Fairfax a suburb

If you really wanna press to the extreme, you could see DC as a suburb of Fairfax, given that Fairfax has twice the population of DC, and is considerably more industrial (non-political) HQs than DC, despite DC being the Capital of the US.

Comment by Richard Layman

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 18:18:09 EDT

for some discussion of the city county thing, see

Independent Cities and Counties
in Virginia: Substitute Jurisdictions?
Geoffrey K. Turnbull and Michael T. Tasto
Urban Studies Journal 45:1 48 (2008)

but yep, a big county lightly populated on a square mile basis doesn't a city make. cf. Houston...

Comment by Drumz

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 17:38:37 EDT

Walker explaine the whole city issue well enough. I would hesitate to call Fairfax sleepy and suburban. This is a county that has Tyson's and Reston and plenty or urban areas. We can talk about the quality or degree, but we are beyond essentializing over what makes DC a city and Fairfax a suburb when both places have both types of neighborhoods

Comment by Falls Church

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 17:34:54 EDT

Yes, there is already an outer beltway in VA. This is a proposal for an outer outer beltway in PW/Loudoun.

Frankly, we don't need to make every highway expansion a battle in the culture/political war. We should apply similar objective economic criteria to each transportation project regardless of its politics. If the outer beltway can be paid for like the Silver Line -- with no more than a 5% contribution from the state, and the rest paid for by local governments and tolls -- then they have every right to build it. So, it's not a contentious matter of culture wars or politics, it's a simple matter of dollars and cents.

Comment by tee.rooa

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:58:19 EDT

I think in Virginia given its distinct political subdividing, they are not allowing any more independent cities in the whole state. Arlington would gain nothing even if it were allowed to incorporate because it already functions like its own independent city and even controls its own roads. Alexandria has a higher population density than Arlington and it is incorporated as its own independent city. Anyway Virginia is weird like that.

Comment by AWalkerInTheCity

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:51:17 EDT

FFX considering incorporating was a matter of particular autonomy under Va law. It has nothing to do with either how big or how urban you are - not that City of Falls Church and City of Fairfax are cities, and much more fit 'sleepy bed room community" than FFX county does (im not sure how an entire county, with houses built from the 19th century to 2012, can be 'cookie cutter' shouldnt that apply to a single subdivision?)

Comment by Thayer-D

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:49:54 EDT

Kyle-W,
It's still one of my smart growth dreams. The idea of being able to roll up to the edge of town after going through agricultural or natural land and have a clear boundry. Would be nice! Maybe in 100 years when preserving large swaths of open land for ecosystem viability, or when fossile feul's costs are honestly tabulated, and we see the insanity of the enterprise.

Comment by King Terrapin

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 16:39:17 EDT

@drumz
" it's one of the most populated counties in the country and if it was a city (as was discussed last year by the BOS) it'd be bigger than Pittsburgh."

So would Montgomery, Prince George's, Anne Arundel, and Balt. Co. There's a lot of suburban counties that have populations greater than major cities, but that doesn't mean they should incorporate, especially since they're mostly low density (<5,000 sqmi).

Fairfax is still a sleepy cookie-cutter bedroom suburb. If any county should incorporate, Arlington is clearly the obvious choice. It wouldn't be a bad idea for 'Tysons' to incorporate either.

Comment by drumz

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:35:34 EDT

Fitz,

I get what you're saying and maybe its just my optimistic outlook for Fairfax talking but I think most in Fairfax realize why the county is the way it is. Plus, it's too big to ignore, it's one of the most populated counties in the country and if it was a city (as was discussed last year by the BOS) it'd be bigger than Pittsburgh.

While they may not be interested in the region the region definitely needs to be interested in Fairfax. (to paraphrase and misquote Lenin).

Comment by AWalkerInTheCity

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:34:23 EDT

@fitz

not at all. A. a very large percentage of total trips are not work trips and most of those are already suburb even in 'stereotypical suburbs' B. FFX already has lots of employment and many commute trips are within the county. Thats true of lots of suburbs, though especially so in FFX. C. that does not mean there is no interest in being part of greater Washington - between the significant number of commuters to DC (and Arlington and Alex) reflected in those numbers, and the fact that many of the jobs IN FFX are connected to proximity to DC and arlington, FFX is definitely tied strongly to the region - indeed proximity to the core is a selling point for FFX vs Loudoun.

The FFX bd is surely interested in growing FFX (and especially Tysons) as an employment center. However they want to do that in part by increasing the non-auto mode share in the county, and especially for trips to and within Tysons. I think thats a goal many or most of the folks at GGW share.

Comment by Fitz

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:03:12 EDT

I don't subscribe to emails from the NVTA so I did a search for them and I noticed on their site under the "Save the Planet" heading:

In 2040 77.5% of all daily trips in Fairfax County are likely to be internal; only 22.6% generally external in nature.

Doesn't that suggest that they are a group who wants to see Fairfax grow from a commuter suburb to one where people live, work and otherwise go about their daily interests outside the Beltway and don't have much of an interest in being part of greater Washington? Is it possible that they like to live within the confines of the stereotypical suburb?, as unattractive as most of us readers of GGW find it.

I agree that their pleas for saving the planet don't add up though.

Comment by charlie

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:58:02 EDT

what is halloween without an (outer) outer beltway sighting?

Comment by Jasper

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:56:16 EDT

Here's the take it or leave it solution. Upgrade the Fairfax County Parkway to Interstate status as it was intended, while extending the Blue Line in the median to VA-123 and then to the Silver Line. There are enormous opportunities along the parkway for infill highrises, plenty of empty land and if you allow highrise zoning withing half or one mile from the parkway, developers will buy people out.

That way you help mobility as well as transit.

Comment by Kyle-W

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:55:15 EDT

@Thayer

Of course your comment was in jest, just made me laugh to even think that something like that could ever work :)

Comment by Kyle-W

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:46:59 EDT

@Thayer-D

Hahahaha. I lol'd at your sentence about preserving open land. If this road ever is built, before the ink even dries on the contracts, there will be another 10,000 homes built on farmland. This is such a horrible idea, for a county that has much more pressing needs (95) and it saddens me that it keeps popping up.

Comment by Thayer-D

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:42:04 EDT

Short term gain, long term pain. Reminds me of the Republicans who will invent a reality when the one at hand is inconvenient. I might actually be fine with an outer beltway if developers could agree to imposing growth boundries to preserve open land. I'd be dreaming to think that wall would hold up once the road was built.

Comment by fongfong

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:35:19 EDT

And the NIMBYs in Ward 3 contend that eliminating parking minimums will actually increase traffic.

Comment by SJE

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:24:41 EDT

In related news, children told their fathers that Mommy said they could eat more candy

Comment by bone

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:20:13 EDT

I thought the Fairfax County Parkway was supposed to be the outer beltway

Comment by Gull

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:10:44 EDT

I agree with Selxic, 28 is the 'real' outer beltway, that would logically be the connection to MD if one were ever made. I think this activist group is asking for a 3rd loop out, that would really go through Prince William and Loudoun Counties.

Comment by selxic

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:35:36 EDT

For the most part, the Fairfax portions of the Outer Beltway are built.

Comment by Tina

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:26:26 EDT

@drumz -- yes, but that's logical.

Comment by drumz

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 12:20:39 EDT

Thing is, an outer beltway will never truly "help" fairfax county if it has nothing to connect to. Even if the board of supervisors was 100% pro-outerbeltway, good luck getting Montgomery county on board which is the only place for that beltway to go. Much like how there isn't much Fairfax can do about I-66 going to two lanes once it enters Arlington.

HOWEVER, if you look at smaller projects like light rail down 7, gallows road or route 1 then you can improve the commutes of many Fairfax residents and workers for the same price that you'd get for this outer beltway which would have a lot of through traffic for not as much benefit to Fairfax residents.

Moreover, the more people you get out of their cars the more room you have for people still in them on 495, and so forth.