Comments on What makes a place "walkable"? - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by Phil Spalding

Fri, 02 Nov 2012 13:08:47 EDT

My copy of the new book is on order and anxious for its arrival in the next two weeks. We are just back from Florence, and the contrast of the walk/drive situations in Italy and US are amazing. The chaos of Florence/Rome narrow streets, even narrower sidewalks, tons of pedestrians, and all types of transport is eyeopening but it all seems to work. Perhaps one note is that all understand that the streets can be successfully used by all with a bit of patience. I can, however, see planners in DOT's horrified by the narrow multiple use streets/scapes. I would much rather try crossing at busy Italian corners than enormously wide US crossings despite the technological infrastructure.

Comment by John Flack

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:46:51 EDT

You bring to mind two nearby Main streets turned into pedestrian malls, one a success, and one a failure. The success is Charlottesville, VA where several strip malls and one Tyson's-like indoor mall on the outskirts nearly killed downtown. But they closed downtown Main Street to cars and made it a pedestrian mall, and somehow it works - its a nice place to stroll, eat, and shop. The failure is Winchester, VA. The pedestrian mall in that town's downtown area is dark, and rather empty. I don't think I understand the difference.

Comment by Ward 1 Guy

Thu, 01 Nov 2012 11:40:02 EDT

The tourist part of Rome is probably different from other parts. I wouldn't compare the Centro Storico to anything. And there are so many differences between an old European city and DC that it's like comparing the streets of DC to the streets of Mars.

We have an uphill climb here to build a culture of sharing the roads (cars and bikes) and sharing the sidewalks (peds and bikes) and figuring out where segways and scooters and joggers fit in but we will build our own way-sharing culture around our own infrastructure. It will never look like a quaint part of a European city, but hopefully it will look very different from car-centric suburbia.

We're making progress, but I'm skeptical that we need "fabric" as a separate concept to measure that progress. Does U Street have more fabric than Adams Morgan or Mount Pleasant? I think we already know that we need not only good pedestrian infrastructure and protection from other modes (bikes and motor vehicles) but something interesting to walk to, like street-facing retail, retail density, and retail diversity, as well as round the clock activity. Walkscore measures much of that already.

Comment by Tom Coumaris

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 21:08:00 EDT

One place not safe for pedestrians is 14th NW by my house on S. Drivers seem to actually speed up when approaching pedestrians in the designated cross walks between R and T. Combined with some lanes and sidewalks being closed for long-term construction and it's scarey. Bright pillars need to be put back in those crosswalks.

I've always been fond of the way pedestrians in Paris can just walk in front of the multitude of lanes in the Place de la Concorde and the Arc de Triomphe without even looking, as they seem to do in Rome.

Comment by Rich

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 21:01:27 EDT

Perhaps Speck will define "fabric" in more depth. He's right about Rome--it's a chaotic mess, but also very walkable. I remember covering not insignificant disances from the Campo D'Fiore & Piazza Navona to the large park in Travestevre, the Colesium, and the Vatican not to mention closer signts like the Parthenon. I suspect much of what goes into "fabric" is intangible and not quite the same thing as being pre-car or dense.

I've been in NYC several times since the beginning of the beginning of summer and have spent time in a variety of places in Manhattan, as well as in Brooklyn & Queens. Even where you have density, places can be dead some or all of the time and car-friendly spaces such as those in Long Island City aren't entirely incaptible with a walkable environemnt. I suspect that low to mid-rise areas have "more fabric" because people easily can walk out and make the street their living room.

Comment by Jasper

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:41:13 EDT

@ RJ:I just came back from Rome, and one thing that stood out was the driver’s attitude towards sharing the road with pedestrians.

I did not have that experience. Italian drivers are insane and aggressive. Driving on Manhattan is peanuts compared to getting through a Mediterranean city.

Rome is of course a city built for pedestrians. When it was build, there were no cars. In fact, there were barely wagons of any kind.

This is in my mind, one reason why (North-)American cities are so much more car-friendly than cities elsewhere. Cities here were built were cars (or at least carriages) in mind.

Comment by OctaviusIII

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:47:35 EDT

@charlie

On the highway mentality - quite. I know one crosswalk that's been lobbied out of existence by drivers that are worried pedestrians will "pop up" in the middle of the intersection, and I know of one more where they're trying to get their way again.

Sadly, both places are in places that are supposed to be walker-friendly. It's laughable and depressing.

Comment by cmc

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:25:52 EDT

When building urban neighborhoods, prioritize:

Pedestrians > Bicyclists > Public Transportation > Private Transporation.

If street grids are built in that fashion, people are safer, neighborhoods are walkable and density will follow.

Nevertheless, mixed-use development make a neighborhood worth going to.

Comment by Thayer-D

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:47:18 EDT

Jeff,
By the way, is your friend in the American embassy a guy named Ale? If so, tell him his soccer/architect friend said ciao!

Comment by Thayer-D

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:27:40 EDT

One of the essential criteria I've found missing is the lack of coordination between different branches of government. For example, while the state of Maryland proports to be in favor of smart growth, it seems that DOT, The Department of Education, and others didn't get the memo. Try building schools to enliven public spaces and maximize pedestrian and bicycle access, good luck. Want the main arterials tames with sidewalks and on street parking, not my department! Want to up-zone transit stops? Not in my back yard.

I'd like to see how we can kill more birds with one stone for once, especially since our recourses are not what they once where.

Comment by drumz

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:27:01 EDT

Seeing Mr. Speck speak about Suburban Nation at a conference about the conferences was literally the moment I started caring about urban issues. So you all now know who to thank (or chastise) for me being the way I am.

Anyway, its important to note that a key component of the "fabric" that Mr. Speck mentions is density. There needs to be a lot of shops and bars and intersections in a defined area to get that sort of walkability. It's right to note that a lot of the things that make being a pedestrian safer (crosswalks, lights, wide sidewalks) are kind of moot until you get a point where people are trying to walk somewhere. It's a chicken/egg problem that I think is usually best solved by doing both at the same time.

Comment by charlie

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:23:22 EDT

@RJ; you have something there. Others have commented on the increasing "highway" mentality of US drivers.

I just noticed how different my behavior is in the city driving an automatic vs. a stick -- with an automatic it is very easy to creep up all the time, driving a stick you tend to wait and dart of openings.

Comment by Some Ideas

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:20:01 EDT

I will be interested to see how you approach this in your book: one of the key elements for pedestrians is not the "stuff" of the walking space, rather why are they there in the first place. If we want active pedestrian focused towns and cities, we need to give people a reason to be there. To live there and walk, or to park once and walk from place to place...from interesting place to interesting place with a purpose for a trip. People don't walk because planners want them to, people will do what is easiest (least opportunity cost) to satisfy a need, we are indeed simple in that regard.

Comment by RJ

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:09:33 EDT

I just came back from Rome, and one thing that stood out was the driver’s attitude towards sharing the road with pedestrians. The rules that we were told in crossing the street was, see an opening and cross confidently, cars will stop. So several times during out stay we would carefully cross major intersections (with little or no controls) and like magic the cars parted ways as if we were walking stop signs. Not once did I notice, or sense, any irritation in the drivers that had to slow for us, it was just normal traffic to them..

Comment by AWalkerInTheCity

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:51:04 EDT

You can get political consensus, more or less, for pedestrian safety amenities. Even folks wedded to an autocentric suburban lifestyle will (usually) not oppose that - safe sidewalks is more like apple pie.

Start talking about fabric and aura, and you trigger all the culture war hot buttons "this is about froyo for hipsters, and bars for drunk 20 somethings, and how dare you call my pleasant neighborhood "sterile" you elitist!"

Clearly aesthetics, retail mix, aura, etc matter. To some extent they simply are not accessible to policy levers - and where they are, you are going to have to be very careful to have a coalition built that supports what you want to do.

Comment by charlie

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:36:57 EDT

random comment: The pedestrian mall in C-ville is really being re-vitalized with ourdoor dining.

I'd agree that tasking your local DOT with "more walking" is just going to result in a lot of wasted money on facilities and studies. That is what they do.

North Madrid is the same vintage as many new american cities (post 60s) but far more walkable. Having bars every twenty feet helps.

If I am doing the maths right, the density of Rome is about 6000 people per square mile -- or something like delaware. Not very dense by any standards.

Comment by Andrew

Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:27:14 EDT

David, thanks for sharing this, and Jeff, I am looking forward to reading the whole book!

Question, isn't what is described as "fabric" the result of pre-auto development? Trastevre is a fantastic neighborhood, but is a medieval village. How can we transform our planned communities (and DC as a whole is a planned community) to have this fabric?