Greater Greater Washington

Sustainability


Get plastic bags out of the Anacostia

Many of the plastic bags from supermarkets and other stores end up in the Anacostia River, clogging up small tributaries, killing fish and birds, and eventually ending up in tiny pieces in our food supply. Next week, Councilmember Tommy Wells will introduce a bill to push shoppers and stores to use reusable bags instead of the disposable plastic bags. Delegate Al Carr of Montgomery County plans to introduce a similar bill. DC and Maryland should pass these bills. You can show your support at TrashFreeAnacostia.com.


A bird caught in a plastic bag.

20,000 tons of trash enter the Anacostia each year, and according to a recent report, 80% of that is plastic bags, bottles, wrappers, and Styrofoam. DC spends millions every year to clean up this trash, and the EPA recently announced it will start fining DC for exceeding pollution limits on the river. Currently, we exceed those almost every time it rains.

Recycling isn't enough. DC started recycling plastic bags this past year, but taxpayers still pay for every recycled bag. The companies that take the recyclables don't make enough from the bags to cover their costs. And despite strong recycling efforts, more and more bags keep ending up in the river.

Already, many stores sell low-cost reusable bags. Some, like Giant, even give a credit if you bring back old bags instead of using new bags. Costco stopped offering bags years ago, and discount food stores like ALDI and Save-A-Lot, and even IKEA, charge customers a nominal fee for every bag. When IKEA started charging, their bag usage dropped 97% in the first year. Ireland instituted a fee for bags in grocery stores and other retail shops, and saw a 94% reduction in bag use within a year.

I usually bring reusable Whole Foods bags to buy groceries at Safeway. Unless I specifically put the bags on top of the food so the checker can't miss them, he or she usually blithely starts stuffing groceries into bags, often only half full, double bagged, or both. We need a small incentive to encourage shoppers to remember the reusable bags and to get checkers to ask.

Wells' bill will charge a 5 cent fee for paper or plastic bags from any stores with Retail Food Establishment licenses or Class A or B liquor licenses. It only applies to "carryout" bags, the ones you get at the checkout; the thin bags you put lettuce in or the ones the deli counter uses to wrap turkey don't count. To encourage stores to comply, they get to keep 1 cent. And if they give shoppers a 5 cent or greater discount for bringing in old bags, as Giant does, they can keep 2 cents.

The rest of the money goes into an Anacostia River Cleanup and Protection Fund, which will pay for cleaning up the river, educational programs, enforcement, and giving out free reusable bags to elderly and low-income residents.

This program will save retailers money because they won't have to buy bags. It'll save taxpayers by cutting down on recycling costs, environmental cleanup costs, and EPA fines. It'll improve our long-term health and protect the environment.

Please tell your Councilmembers to support this bill for our environment, our health and our wallets at TrashFreeAnacostia.com.

David Alpert is the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Greater Greater Washington and Greater Greater Education. He worked as a Product Manager for Google for six years and has lived in the Boston, San Francisco, and New York metro areas in addition to Washington, DC. He loves the area which is, in many ways, greater than those others, and wants to see it become even greater. 

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Now if we could only get a bottle deposit like back in Michigan.

by inlogan on Feb 12, 2009 10:06 am • linkreport

This is great! Of course I'm not sure if I've seen a plastic bag floating down the river- but the money will help get rid of all the other stuff- which is mostly plastic soda bottles and beer cans coming down from Maryland.

by Tom A. on Feb 12, 2009 10:12 am • linkreport

In the Netherlands, supermarkets do not give you bags anymore. You can buy (good) plastic bags for a nominal price of 1€. Most people have high quality grocery bags that they re-use forever. Honestly, my mom still has the same bags she had when I was a kid. I haven't seen such large and sturdy bags in the US.

http://images.google.com/images?q=boodschappentas

(these things are big)

Tip for supermarket: assemble a little hook on the front of your carts so that patrons can hang their bags on the outside of their carts.

Retail still does give free bags, but now asks whether the customer wants a bag. Many customers end up not choosing a bag for smaller items. Also people who make purchases in multiple stores, often get a bag in the first, and then fill up. Perhaps surprisingly, many stores do not seem to mind the smaller exposure of their brand due to less folks walking around with their logo on a bag. Apparently they prefer the savings on the bags they're not giving out.

by Jasper on Feb 12, 2009 10:14 am • linkreport

For those of us who shop after work and don't own cars in DC this seems like an annoying inconvenience. I'm not going to make a separate stop on the subway to walk home and get my reusable bags then pay another $1.65 to get back on the train to go to the store. Retailers charge an adequate mark-up on their products to cover the cost of bags, and I suspect they're not going to cut prices to compensate if you now have to buy the bag.

by Steve on Feb 12, 2009 10:34 am • linkreport

@Steve: I pre-plan and bring a couple of empty, lightweight bags with me. Then again, I always carry a laptop bag or similarly capacious piece of luggage, so I've got the room.

Reusable bags aren't all that expensive, just a few dollars per. The improbable big-picture solution might be for stores to buy back unneeded reusable bags. Forgot a reusable bag? Just buy one for $1.50; sturdier than disposable bags and easier to carry. Next time you're at the store, you can just sell it back.

by David Ramos on Feb 12, 2009 10:47 am • linkreport

@Steve: One solution is to hang onto the ordinary plastic bags that you get now, and keep a stash of them in your office/workplace. When you want to go shopping on the way home from work, just grab a few bags and take them with you.

by Johanna on Feb 12, 2009 10:48 am • linkreport

Why would it be so hard to have a bag on you? They don't take up that much space when folded properly.

Have you read about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch? It is an area three times the size of Texas that is a gyre of ocean currents where gobs and gobs of plastic now float and break down in sunlight into smaller and smaller pieces of plastic, but never decomposing away. These exist in all oceans and are a rapidly growing ecological tragedy of epic proportions. Plastic bags and plastic use overall needs to be severely curtailed. I see plastic bags everywhere around here, snagged in trees, on the sides of roads, I've seen plenty in the Potomac... it is terrible. All that will end up in rivers and then in the oceans.

by NikolasM on Feb 12, 2009 10:49 am • linkreport

Also, Steve, if you're doing some quick shopping on the way home, you don't have a wheelie cart or car with you. (People with cars can leave the reusable bags in the trunk). When I carry groceries, I can only carry about 4 or so bags max. That's 20 cents, 40 if it's double bagged, and as many groceries as I can carry will probably run at least $25. Non-grocery items are even more expensive per pound. 20 or 40 cents on $25 of groceries isn't that much, and if I don't want to pay for it, I can carry a bag with me or do shopping when with the wheelie cart.

by David Alpert on Feb 12, 2009 10:54 am • linkreport

How about you guys recycle and I keep on using plastic bags. That way we save the enviroment AND I get the convenience of not re-using bags. It's win-win all around.

by MPC on Feb 12, 2009 11:07 am • linkreport

@ Steve:

* What about the annoying inconvenience of the bird in the picture?

* What about the annoying inconvenience of the people living next to a land-fill?

* What about the annoying inconvenience of plastic bags being made of oil products that we're running out of?

* What about the annoying inconvenience of the damage to the environment?

Anyway. I don't see a lot of people leave work without any form of bag, be it a backpack, a plastic bag, or a little suitcase. You can stuff a couple of bags in there. It's really not that hard.

by Jasper on Feb 12, 2009 11:12 am • linkreport

Right. It takes an effort.

I wonder if what the people mean who are saying they can't pack a bag is that they can't REMEMBER to pack a bag.

by Jazzy on Feb 12, 2009 11:20 am • linkreport

And I'll just go ahead and say it: the charge should be higher.

by Jazzy on Feb 12, 2009 11:22 am • linkreport

Like inlogan I saw the $0.10 deposit/bottle in michigan, which has been in place since the 70's, do great when all bottles/ cans were aluminum/glass. Maybe inlogan knows but I think the deposit doesn't apply to plastic bottles and they are a problem in MI now too.

-Steve, really whats the big deal about carrying a reuseable bag? Plastic ones crunch up so small you could put it in your sock!

I feel for the bird. (and the hundreds of sea turtles who die every year ingesting plastic bags that look like jelly fish, and the thousands of other animals killed by plastic bags annually). It's so easy for us to just re-use. For these animals it's life-and-death and yet they have no control over it. We do.

by Bianchi on Feb 12, 2009 11:23 am • linkreport

What's clear from the comments of Steve and MPC above is that not everyone is willing to take a look at their lifestyle and make tiny changes that benefit the community at large. SO we have to raise awareness of the consequences of using these bags (to the environment, in oil consupton, etc.).

I would support the abolition of single-use plastic check-out bags today, everywhere. Keep offering paper bags for a nickel fee. People would quickly make the switch to reusables.

Trust me, Steve and MPC - it ain't that hard a thing to do.

by Glenn on Feb 12, 2009 11:25 am • linkreport

There are a number of quite compact nylon bags available. I try to keep at least one with me at all times.

by KenF on Feb 12, 2009 11:32 am • linkreport

I would suspect that the problem is just as much (if not more) the result of careless people littering than it is the use of whatever bag type.

Until littering laws start getting enforced more stringently, this "do away with plastic bags" is little more than a feel-good measure.

I'm not saying that reusable bags isn't a bad idea. It's a very good idea. But I don't see simple use of plastic bags being the primary reason for the trash problem in the Anacostia.

by Froggie on Feb 12, 2009 11:37 am • linkreport

Target sells reusable bags that fold up to about the size of a wallet. I usually keep one or two in my purse and others in my car to make sure I have them on hand. I've thought for years that the bags should be banned.

I do have a question, though--what about fast food restaurants and the like? Will we have to bring bags to those as well?

by Kate on Feb 12, 2009 12:08 pm • linkreport

This posting doesn't really explain why tons of trash ends up in rivers - never mind the plastic bag focus. While I've been to my hometown's landfill many times I'll admit where urban trash goes is something I'm not knowledgeable about. Does anyone have a link to more explanation?

by Paul S on Feb 12, 2009 12:14 pm • linkreport

There are alternatives to virgin petrol-based plastic bags. There are vegetable based biodegradable "plastic" bags available - I've bought them. there are also plastic bags made from recycled plastic bags available - I've bought those too. (both types for use as garbage bags). If those products/alternatives are available to me at retail certainly they are available wholesale to merchants.

by Bianchi on Feb 12, 2009 12:21 pm • linkreport

I'm suspicious of legislation like this. The problem isn't the bags, its the behavior of people who litter.

That said, I bring my bags to Giant because I'm a cheap bastard and take the .5 credit. BTW, if you use the self checkout, you can cheat a little and take a few extra credits. It feels good when you can screw Giant out of .10 or .15, plus I figure I should get an extra discount anyway for doing my own bagging and checkout, thus saving them labor costs.

by spookiness on Feb 12, 2009 12:37 pm • linkreport

I think a major component of the problem is the proliferation and sheer mass of plastic bags that until recently were entirely free -the 5 cent credit at places like Giant is new. If there weren't so damn many of them and/or they weren't so "free" they wouldn't get tossed so cavalierly. We saw this type of change with the bottle deposit law in MI 30 years ago.

by Bianchi on Feb 12, 2009 12:52 pm • linkreport

I wonder how many folks barely scraping by - the thousands who are behind on their utility bills that we all read about earlier this week - can afford "a few extra bucks" to buy these bags.

And I wonder how many people who go shopping once a week in their cars and load up would opt to go to Maryland or Virginia for the convenience of a trunk full of groceries in plastic bags.

I believe they passed a similar law in Seattle and some of the councilmembers in that very liberal city were actually recalled by the voters. It was a campaign secretly funded by the grocery chains and the bag industry, I recall.

This is still a democracy, GGW, and I really don't think a majority of people in the four quadrants of our city would support this legislation. Not for a minute.

by Mike S. on Feb 12, 2009 12:55 pm • linkreport

This is really a hollow proposal. Most people reuse bags (or dispose of them properly). Those bags that are in the river are coming from folks who will continue to litter the river like they do everything else ... and these aren't the same folks who'll be paying the new "tax". And yes I said tax, 'cause that's what it is. We could acheive the same aims by simply raising the sales tax. At least in that case there'd be more transparency. This Tommy Wells guy seems like one of those do-gooders who's more interested in "looking good" to his constituency than in really "doing good".

by Lance on Feb 12, 2009 1:01 pm • linkreport

Mike S, as spookieness pointed out you needen't buy anything special - just bring the same plastic bag back with and get a credit! The store gives you credit for re-using! So, your argument that it's a finacial burden to re-use just biodegraded.

there are many people who value what is gained from a reduction of pollution to support legislation aimed at that value. This has been demonstrated again and again. I guess there are some people who would drive 10 miles out of the way just to get free plastic bags. I certainly wouldn't.

by Bianchi on Feb 12, 2009 1:09 pm • linkreport

I reuse every single plastic bag from the grocery store. I use them to store and dispose of kitchen trash and I use them to carry my lunch to work (multiple times each). We use them for all purpose bag needs. WHen we're done, yes, they end up in a landfill and hopefully not in a nearby tree or river.

One question and one observation: 20,000 tons a year. REALLY???? That is beyond comprehension. Where does that number come from? I'm not doubting it, but I can't wrap my head around it.

And the poor birdie in the picture? It's in a produce bag, like the one EXEMPTED from the Wells bill, not a traditional grocery bag. I never take those bags except for bagels. For produce, I just throw it in the cart and on the belt, knowing I have to wash it anyway.

by Ward 1 Guy on Feb 12, 2009 1:27 pm • linkreport

Bianchi -

Michigan's bottle deposit does apply to plastic bottles, but the law never applied to bottled water - only to soft drinks and beer. Since then, bottled water has exploded in sales, but those aren't covered.

Also, for DC to go to a bottle deposit alone would be problematic. There were already border effect issues in Michigan, but DC would make it worse. If it were coordinated with MD and VA, then we'd have something to go with.

As far as this legislation, I'd support it. It's something a lot of businesses would probably like to do on their own, so just giving them a little push might be all that's needed.

by Alex B. on Feb 12, 2009 1:46 pm • linkreport

I am more than willing to accept the bundled costs of buying plastic bags each time I make a purchase at the supermarket.

Unless you give me a very strong incentive to change my habits, I won't. It's that simple. Wagging a finger at me or lecturing me on how getting another plastic bag will kill polar bears does very little for me to change my habits.

Again, if everyone but me pitches in to 'save the environment', I benefit from a better environment AND I get to use plastic bags on my schedule. That is why these "feel-good" laws with incentive do very little to change things. And if you simply ban or tax plastic bags the law will either get struck down or loopholes will be found quickly.

I know I usually sound cynical, that's because I am, and by and large the majority of people in the the world, in the long run, would act out in similar ways that I just described.

by MPC on Feb 12, 2009 2:10 pm • linkreport

"Again, if everyone but me pitches in to 'save the environment', I benefit from a better environment AND I get to use plastic bags on my schedule. That is why these "feel-good" laws with incentive do very little to change things."

Um, contradiction anyone?

by Jazzy on Feb 12, 2009 2:21 pm • linkreport

@Jazzy: It sounds to me like MPC agrees with you: The charge for a new plastic bag should be higher, i.e., the incentive should be greater.

by Johanna on Feb 12, 2009 2:29 pm • linkreport

An alternate view on the Gyre

http://www.savetheplasticbag.com/ReadContent684.aspx

by Q on Feb 12, 2009 2:55 pm • linkreport

Wow- what a touchy subject for everyone. Let's face it- plastic is not great for the environment so we need to figure out ways to make it easier for people to start using reusable products. Bagnesia makes it easy to carry reusable bags with you everywhere you go. Their bags roll up smaller than a cell phone so you can put them in the same bag that your computer is in, clip them on your key chain and they and they also have a system to help you remember to take them into the store! They even sell produce bags and stainless steel water bottles so you can get that plastic out of your life as well!

by pam on Feb 12, 2009 3:30 pm • linkreport

A 24 hour trawl with a tiny collector in an area three times the size of Texas doesn't mean all that much.

http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=1037781&sponsor=

http://outriggerhawaii.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/midway-albatross-count-day-9/

http://kms.kapalama.ksbe.edu/projects/2003/albatross/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7312777.stm

Midway and the northern Hawaiian atolls act like a comb through these currents and catch a lot of garbage and this is in the middle of the pacific ocean, miles and miles away from anything.

by NikolasM on Feb 12, 2009 3:32 pm • linkreport

I read about something called something like ecobags or eco something, that sounded really nice. Maybe someone posted it on here. Does anyone remember what it was?

by Jazzy on Feb 12, 2009 3:58 pm • linkreport

btw, great pic! (Even the birds are recycling the bags! Who'd of thought a produce bag could be turned into an avian raincoat?)

by Lance on Feb 12, 2009 4:44 pm • linkreport

Jazzy, There are products made w/corn starch but I just googled it to see what's up. I read only one site fwiw it said those "biodegradeable" plastic bags w/cornstarch are still 75% plastic and reccommended paper compost bags for trash bags instead b/c they actually do biodegrade. 7th generation sells plastic trash bags made from 80% recycled plastic. This brand is carried at the social safeway (on Wisc. Ave near R St. NW), wholefoods, Yes! Organic. It's better than virgin plastic. There's no shortage of plastic to recycle.

Alex B. thanks for the info about the plastic water bottles and deposits in MI.

FYI "PepsiCo and Coca-Cola bottle Detroit municipal water for their Aquafina and Dasani brands, respectively.

"http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/28/AR2008092802997_2.html

by Bianchi on Feb 12, 2009 5:00 pm • linkreport

yeah, i sometimes think we should just try to do away with plastic as much as possible. I've heard that recycling 3,4,5,6,7 plastics involves mostly shipping it to Asia where it is burned as fuel. Really we should go with glass or try to whenever possible. But that is an argument for another day.

No, what I was talking about with the ecobags is not plastic, but it's some kind of pack your own thing, at least that is what I thought. It sounded like it might be cool-looking, but I forgot to check it out.

by Jazzy on Feb 12, 2009 5:09 pm • linkreport

Don't worry about the amount of plastic used for plastic bags. It's pathetically little compared to the amount of hydrocarbons you burns through the engine of your car. So, if you want to save oil, get a better car.

by Jasper on Feb 12, 2009 5:14 pm • linkreport

jasper, thanks. Using recycled plastic bags at least cuts down on the number of bags out there.

by Bianchi on Feb 12, 2009 5:19 pm • linkreport

The Great Pacific Garbage Patch is an area where you might see a plastic baggie spread out over a room-sized volume of water. It's not a navigation concern or a physical obstruction, it's just a large area of water with a significant concentration of plastic floating in it. It appears not to be going anywhere, and is beyond the scope of our ability to clean. Is the trashing of the Pacific is accumulative rather than an equilibrium process? Will it take on the consistency of a pumice raft in a hundred years?

The ecological concern is that this type of thing makes it difficult for sea-surface feeders to work. Imagine a baleen whale, which survives by filtering tons of plankton out of cubic kilometers of surface water. What happens when completely insoluble plastics clog the filters at a rate hundreds of times greater than natural insoluble materials?

-----------

"Again, if everyone but me pitches in to 'save the environment', I benefit from a better environment AND I get to use plastic bags on my schedule. That is why these "feel-good" laws with incentive do very little to change things."

Cognitive dissonance much? My own attitude is actually quite similar to yours - but I don't deny that an incentive with a serious figure which works on most people, is largely effective. I'm a particular fan of large rebates which reward recyclers and penalize litterers, because it enables a homeless guy collecting cans/bags to make up for your largesse in an ecologically & sociologically sound manner, at a trivial cost to society. An enforced 25 cent bag rebate accomplishes maybe 90% of the effect of simply banning bags, without removing their utility.

by Squalish on Feb 12, 2009 5:28 pm • linkreport

It's interesting that that DC city council focuses on upper-middle class progressivism rather than more pressing matters like public education and affordable housing. Now the poor, typically without the convenience of cars, will have another fee to pay in order to make northwest's elite denizens feel better about themselves. This council is clearly out of touch.

I always recycle my bags never litter. Why should I be punished with this tax? This tax is insulting, condescending, and classist.

by Capitol Dome on Feb 12, 2009 8:47 pm • linkreport

This is the most asinine thing I've ever heard why is it only food stores why not all stores ?

I have seen Best Buy, Target,Macy's, H&M, Footlocker, Walmart (even though there are no Walmart's in DC )bags on the streets why is this just for groceries why not every type of bag period people can drop plastic, paper or cloth bags in the street so why no all bags.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea but I think it could be better by all places that give out products in bags like food stores/restaurants, pharmacies, clothing stores, etc.

How about doing something about all the paper that is in the Anacostia,

I doubt someone will bring a bag with them for places like McDonald's etc would want grease on the bag

by kk on Feb 12, 2009 10:40 pm • linkreport

I have no problem with stores charging me for bags. The only reason they give them to us for free is to be competitive with other stores. I think if the government regulates this properly, the market will have no problem adapting.

I think it's illogical that paper and plastic bags have the same cost though. Paper bags are far less detrimental to the water cycle because they biodegrade so much faster.

Something has to be done about the plastic bags though. Their impermiability has the potential to cause major sewer backups and flooding.

by Dave Murphy on Feb 13, 2009 2:36 am • linkreport

For information about plastic bags and the environment as well as links to studies on their impact; surveys on plastic bags knowledge; and environmental shopping strategies, please visit…

www.thetruthaboutplasticbags.com

by Clear Perspective on Feb 13, 2009 7:42 am • linkreport

The site "Clear Perspective" posts is run by the plastic bag industry. Industry representatives go around posting that link on every blog post about plastic bags anywhere.

by David Alpert on Feb 13, 2009 7:52 am • linkreport

The long and short of it is the blame lies on people who litter. Whether they litter plastic bags, paper bags, cloth bags, or whatever, they are to blame and not the bag. And rather than taxing us, the responsible citizens, to pay for the bad actions of the irresponsible citizens, we'd all be better served if something as simple as the littering law were better enforced. As I said in a previous post, by and large, I don't believe it's the folks who'll be paying the tax that are littering the landscape, and adding this new tax will do nothing to punish those who are. And yes, as one poster said, it's a feel good tax being promoted to make people more interested in appearances than in substance. ...

by Lance on Feb 13, 2009 9:17 am • linkreport

@ Bianchi: Using recycled plastic bags at least cuts down on the number of bags out there.

True. But the effect of driving a more fuel efficient car is way bigger, and saves more animals too. I'm not saying the plastic bags make sense, I'm just saying their impact is small, how sad that picture of the bagged heron is. So, while I favor using re-using and recycling like most folks here, I just wanted to point out that the total pollution of plastic bags is negligence compared to car exhaust.

Perspective is important.

by Jasper on Feb 13, 2009 9:19 am • linkreport

Froggie, Lance: It's not just litter. DC's outdated sewer system also dumps sewage and trash into the river during heavy rains, when the sewers overflow. DC will have to spend billions to fix this over the next decade. And we should fix that, which should help the river. But even so, plastic bags end up somewhere. They tend to blow off landfills, garbage barges, or trash set outside, and end up in the water. If not the Anacostia, they'll end up in the Potomac or the giant plastic agglomeration in the Pacific.

by David Alpert on Feb 13, 2009 9:21 am • linkreport

dome, Again, what's the nonsense that this would be a financial burden? The store gives credit to those who bring their own bag. Whats condescending is to presume "the poor" don't care about their environment, as a group, as much as any other group-indeed it is "poor" communities that often bear a disproportionate burden from pollution of all kinds. This initiative targets environmental improvement in some of DC's underserved communities. What's elitist is to think you can speak for "the poor". Who are you, "the poor's" official voice?

by Bianchi on Feb 13, 2009 9:32 am • linkreport

Re-Emphasize David Alperts last point; The sewer system is 100 years old and dumps raw sewage into the rivers after just a medium sized rainfall because it gets overburdened. Money to update the system has to come from somewhere and plastic bags polluting the river is related. The next big problem is plastic bottles.

by Bianchi on Feb 13, 2009 9:41 am • linkreport

If you are looking for "bring your own bags" so you can ween yourself off of plastic check out what Rejute is producing. These totes are hand made and can hold an amazing amount of groceries.

by smcmillian on Feb 13, 2009 12:02 pm • linkreport

For anybody interested in cleaning up the Anacostia , I highly highly recommend either volunteering or donating to the Anacostia Watershed Society http://www.anacostiaws.org.

The AWS have been involved in cleaning up the Anacostia for about the last 20 years or so. In the past they have sued WASA and other polluters of the Anacostia.

They have cleanup days all around the watershed and tours via canoes and pontoon boats from the Bladensburg Waterfront Park down the river

by Tyler Nelson on Feb 13, 2009 1:03 pm • linkreport

Jim Graham is not supporting this, at the present time.

by Jazzy on Feb 17, 2009 10:34 am • linkreport

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