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Breakfast links: Just vote no


Photo by reway2007 on Flickr.
Helmets good, mandatory bad: WABA outlines why they oppose Maryland's proposed mandatory bike helmet law: where it's been passed, bike ridership dropped, and it distracts from the real needs. But individuals should still wear helmets on their own.

Hybrid protest: Drivers of less-polluting vehicles protested Governor McDonnell's plan to tax them $100 a year (while eliminating the gas tax for other drivers). (NBC4)

Last in, first fixed: Some of Metro's newest escalators at the NoMa station will need to be replaced by 2020. The escelators are unreliable and replacing them will reduce the number of escalator manufacturers in the system. (Examiner)

Around the at-large race: Matthew Frumin raised $82,000, while Michael Brown took in $9,500. (@dcist_martin) ... John Settles filed for bankruptcy in 2011. (City Paper) ... Harry Jaffe thinks vote-splitting will benefit Patrick Mara. (Examiner)

MBT gradually moving ahead: DDOT is getting a staging area to build the bridge from the Rhode Island Avenue Metro to the Metropolitan Branch Trail. They're also working on extending the trail to CUA and Fort Totten. (TheWashCycle)

Cool Disco Donuts not so cool: A Dupont Circle donut shop owner tried to name his store after graffiti artist Cool "Disco" Dan, but changed it after artists objected to the "swagger-jacking," reusing African-American culture for commercial purposes. (Post)

Who pays the most?: DC families making $22,000-62,000 pay the greatest share of income in taxes, about 11%; the top 1% and lowest 20% pay a little over 6%. (DCFPI)

High-speed hit piece: An Anderson Cooper "expose" of a "high-speed rail" project in Vermont totally got the story wrong, in many ways. (Streetsblog)

Fearersome new task force: There's a new task force to look at Ward 5's industrial land and it's future. Among the members are Greater Greater Washington editor, Trinidad resident, and Greenbelt planner Jaime Fearer. Congrats Jaime!

And...: DC has started adding more Capital Bikeshare stations. (TheWashCycle) ... Richard Sarles is really sorry about the Green Line fiasco. (City Paper) ... Groundhog Day is tomorrow, and Potomac Phil will make an appearance in Dupont Circle. (Borderstan)

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David Alpert is the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Greater Greater Washington and Greater Greater Education. He worked as a Product Manager for Google for six years and has lived in the Boston, San Francisco, and New York metro areas in addition to Washington, DC. He loves the area which is, in many ways, greater than those others, and wants to see it become even greater. 

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Sarles was at the Navy Yard Station last night, to apologize in person, I guess. I shook his hand and wished him luck - he will need it.

by MStreetDenizen on Feb 1, 2013 9:19 am • linkreport

Around the at-large race: Matthew Frumin raised $82,000, while Michael Brown took in $9,500. (@dcist_martin)

I think you may have inadvertently buried the lede. The full tweet was:

"Michael Brown raises $9,500 from 10 contributors. Matthew Frumin raises $70k from over 280."

That means Frumin had an average contribution of $250, and Michael Brown had an average contribution of $950. Good to see the pigs lining up at the trough in anticipation of a Brown return.
As a refresher on Brown:

The son of the late Commerce secretary Ronald H. Brown and once a rising star in District politics, Brown, 47, was never implicated in any criminal probes into the District government or politicians. But he was battered by a series of a news reports about his failure to pay his bills and taxes on time. Recently, his campaign was dealt a major setback when he reported that $113,000 was stolen from his campaign account.

Brown blamed his former treasurer, accusing the ex-aide of making unauthorized payments to himself. But with no charges filed in the matter, the controversy appeared to fuel public concerns about Brown’s stewardship of his finances. Brown’s campaign was dealt another setback after The Washington Post reported in September that his driver’s license had been suspended five times in the past eight years.

()

by oboe on Feb 1, 2013 9:20 am • linkreport

A Dupont Circle donut shop owner tried to name his store after graffiti artist Cool "Disco" Dan, but changed it after artists objected to the "swagger-jacking," reusing African-American culture for commercial purposes.

Funny, I had no idea that Cool "Disco" Dan was black. I always assumed he was some white dude like Borf.

Commenter @Cyclone nailed it last year:
"For others, cutting across ethnic and class divisions, Dan was a local celebrity. "

Translation: White people liked these tags because they could actually read them. All of the other tags looked like gibberish.

by oboe on Feb 1, 2013 9:26 am • linkreport

So that article about "Swagger-Jacking" is pretty much a re-print of what ran a few months ago. I realized this because the author is basically plaigarizing hisself, I recognized whole phrases.

The author is able to get halfway there but gets bogged down in what culture is and isn't. He seems to recognize that culture isn't static and is constantly in flux but he seems perplexed as how to handle that. It's more prevalent in terms of a neighborhood because a neighborhood is fixed unlike a musical style which is remote and can be accessed anywhere. But yet there is still vibrant black culture all over the place. It may not be as prevalent on U Street anymore but it's still there. Moreover, its still on U street anyway!

by drumz on Feb 1, 2013 9:31 am • linkreport

Ultimately, the torch bearer in the race against Brown/Bonds could come down to who has the most resources. It appears (and with his W3 base it should be) that Frumin has certainly taken the lead here.

The only issue I have with a candidate from upper W3 who has lived in the city for 30 years is his possibly acceptance of the status quo. We know the city is going to grow, and it needs to grow across all 8 wards, not just in wards 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. I read through all of his responses on LetsChoose, and didn't see anything specific to that type of development. How does he feel about The Bond at Tenleytown and the new development at Military and Connecticut?

Is he going to look at the overall good of the city, even when it may anger his donors and constituents, or is he just going to be a water carrier for the rich from upper NW who want no new development, anywhere, anytime?

by Kyle-W on Feb 1, 2013 9:37 am • linkreport

@Kyle

Frumin was the Chair of ANC 3E, which supported The Bond at Tenley and negotiated a memorandum that was unanimously supported by both the ANC and the Zoning Commission.

by William on Feb 1, 2013 9:44 am • linkreport

Interesting race for council at large is shaping up, that's for sure. The campaign finance filings should be interesting and I think it's impressive that Frumin has 280 donors. But can we get some polling, somewhere, please? As the Biddle/Shapiro/Orange election approached, a poll could have been very useful to see that Shaprio just didn't stand a chance. I admire the issue-based work that Let's Choose DC is doing, but I would also like to know who has a viable shot at winning, and who is building a credible campaign team. Jaffe notes that Bonds and Brown will likely split one segment of the vote but it also looks like Frumin and Silverman could be splitting a different segment.

by thm on Feb 1, 2013 9:50 am • linkreport

"swagger-jacking," reusing African-American culture for commercial purposes.

Why would swagger-jacking be more reprehensible than reusing other culture for commercial purposes? Would it have been a problem if the property owner were African-American? Is there a problem with Michael Jordan selling his own culture to Nike?

by Jasper on Feb 1, 2013 9:51 am • linkreport

@William

Fair. I didn't know that, hence why I was asking :) Sounds like a good guy, and if he is the frontrunner, he will certainly have my vote. Will be interesting to see if a guy from Tenleytown can win a city wide election. With such low turnout in these things normally, if he can get incredible turnout in W2 and W3 (and get them to vote for him and not Mara) that could swing this thing.

by Kyle-W on Feb 1, 2013 10:00 am • linkreport

I don't see the any of Silverman, Brown, Bonds, Mara or Frumin getting out of the race. Maybe Settles, Redd or Zuckerberg - we haven't see Settles or Mara's filings yet.

It will be a shame if Silverman and Frumin split votes to allow Mara or Brown/Bonds to win. Then again, Jaffe might be right and the race is Mara's to lose, given all of the democrats currently entered.

by William on Feb 1, 2013 10:14 am • linkreport

On the tax link above, while it describes what the study says, it might be useful to clarify that the % of income shares refers to *all* taxes not just income taxes, where the the taxes are higher for each bracket up. The issue is sales taxes, where that middle group pays a large share of income.

by ah on Feb 1, 2013 10:19 am • linkreport

That swagger jacking thing has to be some masterful trolling, right? No one could possibly be that asinine?

by Alan B. on Feb 1, 2013 10:25 am • linkreport

Maybe he should change it to Cool Disco Clam Donuts?

by Matt C on Feb 1, 2013 11:49 am • linkreport

I hope his next article is about honky-jacking by local non-italian owned pizza places.

by Alan B. on Feb 1, 2013 11:54 am • linkreport

WP is reporting that Gandhi has resigned. The storm clouds had been gathering for awhile, but still a bit surprising I think, considering he was just reappointed.

by JW on Feb 1, 2013 12:15 pm • linkreport

There are a host of ways to discuss how black folk are robbed of our culture but swagger jacking is not one of them. Neither is the owner naming the Donut shop Disco whatever. Seems like the owner had on his big boy pants but I would’ve left the name as is.

At-Large: I wonder did Settles file personal bankruptcy or through a business. I can get w/the latter one but the former is questionable. Dag! Frumin is looking better and better. Silverman will likely be to polarizing (we don't need to Catania's). Color me entirely unimpressed wrt anything about Patrick Mara. Don't need him either.

Sarles should feel sorry. About as sorry as his workers' performance.

by HogWash on Feb 1, 2013 12:31 pm • linkreport

I say this every election, but we really need some kind of runoff of ranked-choice system -- some way that works for choosing among more than two options.

by Gavin on Feb 1, 2013 12:35 pm • linkreport

Instant runoff is the wave of the future. San Francisco does it and Portland, ME just started. Besides being fairer, there are indications that it results in a more diverse set of winners and less mudslinging (since you don't want to alienate an opponents voters).

by David C on Feb 1, 2013 12:51 pm • linkreport

"Cool Disco Dan" is neither cool nor an artist. Whether the "tagging" is on public space or private property, it is vandalism, pure and simple.

by Bob on Feb 1, 2013 1:09 pm • linkreport

Gov. McDonnell is missing an opportunity. Sure, they should have a fee on all electrics and hybrids -- but there are so many other ways to sock it to those folks, even while you're trying to make it cheaper for REAL Americans to drive big gas-guzzlers.

The GGW mailing list was ablaze last week with the idea to charge a mileage fee on drivers based on GPS data that could be collected by requiring such a device for each car. You wouldn't want to do that on folks just looking to enjoy the highway in their muscle cars -- but you could require all those commie pinkos using low-carbon vehicles for their commutes on VA roads to do so.

Also, the state could collect a fee from everyone who uses the phrase "climate change" or "global warming" in any publication or electronic communication. NOt just Virginians, either. The state could send out bills to any and every American, and then get 'em when they cross in the Commonwealth.

And, why stop at drivers of electric cars and hybrids? The state should require every resident who refuses to buy at least one gun each year to pay a no-gun registration/license fee. The state should also seek out ways to collect fees from anyone in Virginia who hires a newly-legal immigrant, once the Congress passes the reform. Plus, while the state is outlawing abortion clinics, they should probably impose a 2000% tax on all contraception sales in the Commonwealth.

by Fischy (Ed F.) on Feb 1, 2013 1:14 pm • linkreport

Methinks Ms Judaism really wanted to use swagger-jacking" in an article.

by selxic on Feb 1, 2013 1:24 pm • linkreport

Sorry about that auto-correct I missed. That was supposed to be Judkis not Judaism.

by selxic on Feb 1, 2013 1:26 pm • linkreport

It's not uncommon for WP articles to be slightly different online from what was printed. The post is from August.

by selxic on Feb 1, 2013 1:28 pm • linkreport

selxic

just go eat your goyish shanda of a cranberry bagel already.

swagger jacking indeed

and has anyone seen the hummus/felafel wars on facebook?

by RebelJew on Feb 1, 2013 1:44 pm • linkreport

Re: Swagger-jacking

I don't know anything about this concept other than what's written in the article but it sounds preposterous for many reasons:

1) culture is used for commercial purposes all the time, not just african american culture

2) using culture for commercial purposes doesn't destroy it or steal it, it celebrates it and keeps it alive. Think of all the t-shirts and trinkets that have been sold with Che Guverra's image on it. The irony is of course that someone associated with communism is a bestseller in the capitalist world but without that commercialism, Che would likely be a forgotten footnote in history. By commercializing his image his message lives on and movies get made about him.

3) Culture needs commerce. With the exception of elements of culture that live off of philanthropy and word-of-mouth, all other culture (arts, food, clothing, etc.) survives through commerce. Anyone who respectfully commercializes good culture (thereby promoting it) should be thanked, regardless of their race.

Here’s a news flash to those who don’t know: This place was a place well before you. You didn’t discover us. We aren’t Indians. You didn’t make Ben’s; we did.

Talk about cognitive dissonance. Yeah "you" (and when I say "you" I really mean this one guy who claims to speak for the entire african american race) didn't make this a place from scratch either. There were native americans calling this place home well before "you" made it your own place. In fact, the name Anacostia was "swagger-jacked" from the native americans. It comes from Anakwashtank which was the name of a village along the Anacostia.

by Falls Church on Feb 1, 2013 2:51 pm • linkreport

@Falls, the concept isn't particularly preposterous...the article was. It actually extends from the long-held belief w/in the community that black folk have been "robbed" (jacked) of our culture. There is a bit of truth you can find w/in the concept and he is speaking in turn here.

by HogWash on Feb 1, 2013 3:10 pm • linkreport

"With the exception of elements of culture that live off of philanthropy and word-of-mouth, all other culture (arts, food, clothing, etc.) survives through commerce."

my sister in law makes a great chicken soup, just like mother, and as far as I can tell all of her daughters and daughters in law make, almost the same way. Is that what you mean by "word of mouth"? because while they do need stores that sell chicken, carrots, etc, they do NOT need anyone selling frozen chicken soup or even soup mix - much less do they need a jewish deli serving chicken soup, or a restaurant selling the "shabbos dinner experience" run by Presbyterians.

So while I found most of the swaggerjacking meme silly, Im going to have challenge the "iron alliance of capitalism and culture meme" set up against it.

For the most part capitalist appropriations of traditional cultures are orthogonal to real organic cultures - they neither harm nor help it. In some cases they may actively undermine it (though I think the yuppies at ben's really don't) If a culture has come to rely on self conscious commercial expression for survival, I would suggest its got a terminal weakness.

by rebeljew on Feb 1, 2013 3:19 pm • linkreport

It still seems a bit of a double standard. African Americans can freely borrow from other cultures, but the opposite is being robbed? Whether or not people want to admit it, America to a degree is a melting pot. There is no pure culture here anymore nor should there be. In this particular case, I can totally understand that it was innappropriate to use the name of a living artist. But to object to it because it was a white guy doing it is no less absurd than objecting to Ben's Chili Bowl selling half smokes because sausages were invented by Europeans.

by Alan B. on Feb 1, 2013 3:19 pm • linkreport

@Falls Church

Would you say the appropriation of Native American symbols/culture for sports teams (Chief Illiniwek etc) "celebrate" those cultures? We've often decided in the past that these things don't.

by MLD on Feb 1, 2013 3:19 pm • linkreport

MLD

courtland Milloy, has recently been making a good point in linking the abuse of african american identity ("negro" mountain) with the issue of the DC football team name.

by rebeljew on Feb 1, 2013 3:21 pm • linkreport

But to object to it because it was a white guy doing it is no less absurd than objecting to Ben's Chili Bowl selling half smokes because sausages were invented by Europeans.

Actually I don't think it's absurd; if someone moved a cupcake shop into the space formerly occupied by "Oleg's Famous Sausages" in some eastern european neighborhood and called it "Oleg's Famous Sausage Cupcakes" or whatever I think people would also get pissed.

It's about someone with zero connection to the cultural icon they're appropriating taking it and using it as their own for commercial purposes.

by MLD on Feb 1, 2013 3:26 pm • linkreport

courtland Milloy, has recently been making a good point in linking the abuse of african american identity ("negro" mountain) with the issue of the DC football team name.

True but I was specifically trying to pick an example where the offensiveness of the WORD isn't in question so much as the appropriation of culture.

by MLD on Feb 1, 2013 3:28 pm • linkreport

It's about someone with zero connection to the cultural icon they're appropriating taking it and using it as their own for commercial purposes.

So being a longtime resident of a place = have zero connection? That's news to me. Obviously he felt he had a connection because he chose to use the name. But you're right, you should be able to tell other people who they do or do not have connections to. There's no way that won't go down hill quickly. I can think of some other groups that I'm sure will line up to support that kind of thinking.

by Alan B. on Feb 1, 2013 3:29 pm • linkreport

my sister in law makes a great chicken soup, just like mother, and as far as I can tell all of her daughters and daughters in law make, almost the same way. Is that what you mean by "word of mouth"?

Yes, by word-of-mouth, I meant any kind of "handed down" tradition. That said, I don't know if your SIL's chicken soup is really part of culture.

Would you say the appropriation of Native American symbols/culture for sports teams (Chief Illiniwek etc) "celebrate" those cultures?

No, I wouldn't. That's why I said "respectfully" in my below statement:

Anyone who respectfully commercializes good culture (thereby promoting it) should be thanked, regardless of their race.

It actually extends from the long-held belief w/in the community that black folk have been "robbed" (jacked) of our culture.

When someone robs me of my wallet, I no longer have it. Do black folk no longer have their culture? Do black folk ever borrow similarly from other cultures?

by Falls Church on Feb 1, 2013 3:30 pm • linkreport

FYI, the guy grew up in Eastern Market, but he's white so of course he doesn't have any cultural connection to the city. What was I thinking?!

by Alan B. on Feb 1, 2013 3:32 pm • linkreport

@MLD:
It's about someone with zero connection to the cultural icon they're appropriating taking it and using it as their own for commercial purposes.
But who defines "zero connection"? It seems like this guy developed quite a bit of connection to the cultural icon when he was growing up in DC, to the extent that he adopted a graffiti motif in his store. How far short of the line denoting sufficient connection is that?

I do think that this is an odd case since the cultural icon is alive and somewhere around here, but it does seem like he made lots of efforts to reach out to the person. I wouldn't think I would want to name my business for someone without having explicit permission, but that doesn't exactly seem to be the complaint here, right?

by Gray's in the Fields on Feb 1, 2013 3:33 pm • linkreport

" That said, I don't know if your SIL's chicken soup is really part of culture."

well at a very minimum its part of what anthropogists call "foodways" as its based on handed down recipes etc (although she makes it on gas stove, rather than a wood stove like in the old country, culture DOES evolve with material conditions)

it also has symbolic value, being connected with the beginning of shabbos and Holidays, and being perfect for shabbos in particular because it can be left warming, and so full preparation can be complete before sunset, in keeping with shabbos laws and customs.

of course she uses kosher ingredients, and has a fully kosher kitchen.

of course other cultures have similar soups - that foodways overlap, does not mean their elements are not part of culture.

by rebeljew on Feb 1, 2013 3:39 pm • linkreport

"When someone robs me of my wallet, I no longer have it. "

obviously we shouldn't say "steals" culture. We should say "pirates" culture

http://www.riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php?content_selector=what-is-online-piracy

by rebeljew on Feb 1, 2013 3:41 pm • linkreport

Just because you're there to witness cultural phenomena doesn't mean that you're part of the group or participating in it.

As for "who defines" your connection, the group that owns the cultural icon; in this case obviously enough people had an issue with it that he was compelled to change the name.

But you're right, you should be able to tell other people who they do or do not have connections to.

So what, people are no longer allowed to comment or provide opinions on these things? Did someone suggest a Council-sponsored "swagger-jacking commission" to rule on these issues? It works both ways - nothing other than peer pressure compelled the owner to change the name of the store; he was free to call it Cool Disco Donuts. And people are free to mock that on Facebook, or choose not to patronize it; I'm pretty sure that's within the law.

Also, dismissing this as "well the guy was white and Cool Disco Dan is black, so clearly that's all there is to this" is lazy.

by MLD on Feb 1, 2013 3:46 pm • linkreport

African Americans can freely borrow from other cultures, but the opposite is being robbed?

Even though there is a difference between adopting/borrowing and robbing, do you have an example of where black folk have borrowed from other cultures? Just trying to understand your point about double standards.

There is no pure culture here anymore nor should there be.I disagree. There is nothing wrong w/having a "pure" culture. I think southern culture is "purely" southern culture. While others may attempt to borrow from it, our southern culture is pure and I believe the same applies for any other region/culture/ethnicity.

Do black folk no longer have their culture?

Depends on whom you ask and what aspect of "culture" you're talking about. The "robbing" extends to things black folk believe we "invented" but because of the times, couldn't receive credit.

by HogWash on Feb 1, 2013 3:47 pm • linkreport

Forgot to close italics:

I disagree. There is nothing wrong w/having a "pure" culture. I think southern culture is "purely" southern culture. While others may attempt to borrow from it, our southern culture is pure and I believe the same applies for any other region/culture/ethnicity.

by HogWash on Feb 1, 2013 3:48 pm • linkreport

Well ok if a black person goes skiing is that not borrowing Scandinavian culture?

What about if they want to become a classicul musician?

What about managing a Chipotle?

I mean can you really not think of examples of black people freely borrowing and enjoying other cultures. I really don't understand the mentality.

by Alan B. on Feb 1, 2013 3:54 pm • linkreport

Ever enjoy a fresh glass of Iced tea?

by Alan B. on Feb 1, 2013 3:55 pm • linkreport

"do you have an example of where black folk have borrowed from other cultures? "

Hmmm. Im trying to think of some examples. I mean surely black folk originated this whole Moses thing, the words amen and halleluyah, all this stuff about exodus and freedom and prophets and the lords day and like SO much more, eh?

by rebelJew on Feb 1, 2013 3:59 pm • linkreport

There is no such thing as "pure" culture because culture isn't monolithic and static. It's always changing.

There is appropriation and there is adoption and sometimes people do that in order to silence the original culture. Sometimes they do it to honor it. Re: the orginal article the author was mad that U street used to be crappy but now its nice and he feels that those who there in the bad days weren't compensated or recognized enough. I think that's a very simplistic way of looking at it because it again reverts to the fallacy of assuming that cutlture is something monolithic, especially black culture when in fact its stereotypical to assume that black culture is monolithic and not fragmented. Moreover there are countless ways that black people are expressing themselves in contexts unique to their experience.

Not to get bogged down in analogies but imagine if he wrote that same article in the context of Jazz or Hip Hop.

by drumz on Feb 1, 2013 4:01 pm • linkreport

Or rather, the only "pure" culture is a people group who are very very isolated. So you either have primitive tribes in the jungle or a self isolating sect like the amish. That should show that worrying about purity in a culture is going to mean that you're going to have to live with a smaller number of people in said culture.

by drumz on Feb 1, 2013 4:08 pm • linkreport

I fully agree with the helmet law. If motorists are required to wear seat belts, it makes perfect sense that cyclists should be required to wear helmets, especially since urban areas are more dangerous for cyclists than drivers.

Of course most cyclists in this area have this sense of entitlement when it comes to roads and feel that the world revolves around them, so the opposition isn't surprising. (Yet I'm sure if there was a bill to ban driving in DC altogether they would support it)

In any case, whether the law is passed or not it won't make much of a difference without proper enforcement, since most cyclists habitually ignore the rules of the road. Maybe the state would be better off educating them so that they understand that stop signs/red lights don't only apply to cars and does not mean "speed through" for bicycles.

by K Street on Feb 1, 2013 4:13 pm • linkreport

especially since urban areas are more dangerous for cyclists than drivers.

And since a mandatory helmet law would likely lead to fewer cyclists that means it would actually become more dangerous for cyclists!

[Deleted for violating the comment policy.]

by drumz on Feb 1, 2013 4:17 pm • linkreport

@K Street

I suggest you go look at the comments from two days ago. Suffice it to say, it looks like mandatory helmet laws actually decrease bicyclist safety - the safety gain from people wearing helmets is not more than the safety decrease from fewer people bicycling.

And contrary to your opinion, most of us follow the law and do not habitually ignore the rules of the road.

by MLD on Feb 1, 2013 4:20 pm • linkreport

Wouldn't a mandatory helmet law expose Bikeshare to crippling liability risks? They'd have no way to ensure all renters are wearing helmets, let alone provide helmets.

by aces on Feb 1, 2013 4:25 pm • linkreport

I mean can you really not think of examples of black people freely borrowing and enjoying other cultures. I really don't understand the mentality.

There seems to be some confusion here. For clarification's sake, I ask for examples of borrowing culture w/in the context of the belief that there's a double standard. I don't believe skiing falls under that. Again, we're talking about "swagger jacking" here.

when in fact its stereotypical to assume that black culture is monolithic and not fragmented.

Of course no group is monolithic in its thinking. However, there is "purity" in what's considered cultural. I believe there IS a thing such as Irish/Asian culture. No, it doesn't mean others can't/won't adopt aspects of it but the Irish maintain their own.

Not to get bogged down in analogies but imagine if he wrote that same article in the context of Jazz or Hip Hop.

That's actually a good point. And many feel as if we were "robbed" of Jazz.

the safety gain from people wearing helmets is not more than the safety decrease from fewer people bicycling.

I thought we were being more speculative than factual there.

by HogWash on Feb 1, 2013 4:59 pm • linkreport

I'm not saying culture is an illusion just that its way less formal than argued normally, especially in the US where it's always been a mixing of cultures. In that light you could provide evidence that this "dilution" is necessary for a more equal society.

And do you think that someone could argue that jazz would be better off in 2013 if white people never got involved and be taken seriously?

by Drumz on Feb 1, 2013 5:17 pm • linkreport

"i believe there IS a thing such as Irish/Asian culture. "

Well sure. Chinese restaurants in Dublin and all that.

or did you mean there is a pure asian culture and a pure irish culture? Since asian includes indian, chinese, burmese, japanese, etc, im really not sure how there could be a "pure" asian culture.

as for pure irish, irish culture has been influenced by outsiders since the time of St Patrick.

"the Irish maintain their own."

know any irish who speak gaelic?

Or do you just mean that irish bars are owned by irishmen? A. im not sure there are no non-irish who own irish bars and B, sounds like this is more about entrepreneurship in the black community that actual cultural borrowing

Drumz

jazz without white people involved would have been different from the get go, seeing as most of the instruments were western european, derived from French marching bands. The saxophone, for example, was invented by a Belgian (Saxe, surprisingly enough)

by AWalkerInTheCity on Feb 1, 2013 5:23 pm • linkreport

"There seems to be some confusion here. For clarification's sake, I ask for examples of borrowing culture w/in the context of the belief that there's a double standard. I don't believe skiing falls under that. Again, we're talking about "swagger jacking" here."

so basically what you want is examples of blacks setting up businesses - IE black owned mexican restaurants or chinese restaurants or what have you. Not many I guess - though that probably has more to do with attitudes to restaurant ownership within the black community than anything else - there are of course black restaranteurs, but there are few enough, that the opportunities in soul food, etc, are more than enough for them.

A much better example of course would be the black preachers who set up churches with hebrew names, and adapt various kinds judaizing aspects as a marketing tool - but then we would have to accept that such folks ARE entrepreneurs, same as someone running a donut shop.

And of course that particular cultural appropriation has been going on for over 2000 years, and was pioneered by white people.

by rebelJew on Feb 1, 2013 5:28 pm • linkreport

And do you think that someone could argue that jazz would be better off in 2013 if white people never got involved and be taken seriously?

I don't get why you're making a value judgment either way. I certainly didn't nor insinuated (or even attempted) such. Someone actually could make that argument but I don't believe it would serve any purpose because it's soooo out of left field

by HogWash on Feb 1, 2013 5:36 pm • linkreport

I'm not trying to make a value judgment. I'm trying to explain why the authors concerns are, for lack of a better term, silly.

Silly because his view on black culture as immutable is untrue. Silly because this isn't new. Silly because it assumes "culture" as intrinsically good rather than acknowledging we should celebrate that some things are gone from our culture. The author poisoned the well from the get go.

Also I'm not insinuating you but the author. WRT to your point about Irish culture or whatever I will refer back to my point that isolation is a big component to maintaining a sort of purity over a culture but that isolation can also be harmful.

AWITC,
Ha, fair enough. I'll also keep that in mind next time a hip hop artist samples lady gaga as well.

by Drumz on Feb 1, 2013 5:56 pm • linkreport

I'm not trying to make a value judgment. I'm trying to explain why the authors concerns are, for lack of a better term, silly.

Got it. I was confused by the question because I don't recall him making an argument wrt to white folk and jazz. So that's why I thought you were referring to me since when you introduced the "jazz" topic, I responded, then you asked the question. The sequence was unclear.

I didn't like the article but attempted to explain the "sentiment" behind it. Sure, we can make the "you didn't build that" analogies. I only tried to provide you w/some perspective and it's up to you whether you believe the concept has any merit.

FWIW, Jazz is the Stepchild of Blues, whose foundation is both southern and black - use of European instruments aside :).

by HogWash on Feb 1, 2013 8:32 pm • linkreport

I kind of feel like it might be offensive to chinese, japanese, korean, vietnamese, indian, thai, cambodian, laotion, malaysian, etc people to say that Asian is "a culture".

by Alan B. on Feb 2, 2013 11:06 am • linkreport

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