Metro "punts": Will release transit schedule data for Google and others

Transit

Metro "punts": Will release transit schedule data for Google and others

by Michael Perkins • March 11, 2009 10:03 am

Metro listened to the riders. Yesterday at the DC Council oversight hearing for WMATA, General Manager John Catoe announced that Metro will release schedule and routing information in the open Google Transit Feed Specification format. They will post the information online for all to access March 23, according to Catoe:

Graham: Now you've got this "Google Transit" issue. And you know I'm going to mention this, because we had testimony [from Michael Perkins] earlier about this. And people have strong feelings about this question. Where are we on giving access to our bus, rail and other information to Google?

Catoe: You know, there's an old statement from football. There's a time to pass the ball, or a time to run the ball, or a time to punt the ball. From this perspective, we've listened, and as a result, Metro is planning on making its bus schedule data available on our website in the [Google Transit Feed Specification] format no later than the 23rd of this month. So we're working as we speak to make that information available.

Catoe said "bus schedule data" but he probably meant "bus and rail." I'm going to call to confirm.

Update: WMATA just posted this to their facebook page: "You'll soon be able to download Metrobus and rail schedule and route data from Metro's Web site. The data would be available publicly to all interested parties after agreeing to our terms of use. The information is the same data that supports Metro's online Trip Planner. Users will be responsible for assembling the data and for keeping it accurate and current. Metro also reserves the right to withdraw the data if necessary. We'll post a news release with more details later this month on our website."

This is even better than just doing a deal with Google, because anyone will be able to use the data. Actually, Catoe didn't give any updates on a specific deal with Google. Other agencies have signed specific deals. Metro might still do that, but it looks likely they might not at all.

How great is that? Metro figured out a compromise position based on feedback from you, the riders. Perhaps they didn't feel that partnering with Google on Google's terms would work for them, so they decided instead to just give the data away and let anyone use it.

For other transit systems, it's been typical for the agency and Google to sign an agreement together. Some provisions of Google's agreement had been a sticking point for Metro in the past. Metro might still be working on a special Google deal. Or, maybe they aren't.

If not, this shouldn't pose a problem if the goal is for Google to index and search the data. Google doesn't get an agreement from every website out there it indexes into its search engine, so why should they require an agreement to index Metro's schedule information? The data will be out there, just waiting to be used by application developers. That's Google, but also anyone else who comes along. Now let's hope (and advocate) for other transit services like Ride On, The Bus, Arlington Transit "ART", Fairfax Connector, DASH and more to follow Metro's lead and release their schedules, too.

Image: Currently, Google Transit recommends a nearly 3-mile walk from Bethesda to Kensington MARC to reach WMATA HQ by transit. With Metro's announced release of schedule data, that should become a thing of the past. Image from Google Transit.

41 comments

Tags: data openness, Google, Jim Graham, John Catoe, technology, WMATA

Where's Google Transit? (Jul 20, 2009)
Fairfax County reluctant to release open transit data (Jun 17, 2010)
Arlington releases open transit data, on Google soon (Apr 13, 2010)
Metro refuses to participate in Google Transit (Dec 13, 2008)
WMATA says Google Transit in mid-January (Dec 13, 2010)

Michael Perkins blogs here and at Infosnack about Metro operations and fares, performance parking, and any other government and economics information he finds on the Web. He lives with his wife and two children in Arlington, Virginia.

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Fantastic news. Great job from David, Michael and everyone else at GGW who worked so hard to get this viewpoint across to Metro. It's refreshing, really.

by Steve Davis on Mar 11, 2009 10:09 am

BRAVO

by Chris S on Mar 11, 2009 10:21 am

DASH transit data is already on Google Maps.

by Patty on Mar 11, 2009 10:22 am

great news!

by Peter on Mar 11, 2009 11:13 am

nice bell and whistle, but the system won't work any better because of this. for schedule information to be useful, it has to be accurate, and there is NO EVIDENCE metro bus/rail runs anything close to published schedules.

by jr on Mar 11, 2009 11:20 am

Not only is DASH on Google Maps, but they have a new website with a trip planner that utilizes Google Maps.

by Kevin Beekman on Mar 11, 2009 11:20 am

Fantastic! I've been writing to Metro for years about this, and its great to hear them say they are doing it!

by Erik on Mar 11, 2009 11:23 am

Thanks to everybody who pushed to hard for this! Whether the data is accurate or not, this is a great step toward a more open and transparent system--and that's always good.

by Arlen on Mar 11, 2009 11:43 am

bad data is worse than no data at all in many cases. take the credit rating companies. they rated all these junk securities AAA, causing most people not to question whether or not that was true.

by jr on Mar 11, 2009 11:46 am

People use Google Transit for planning purposes. I don't see a feasible way for WMATA to plan the service delays they'll be having tomorrow, so it's either put the schedule data in this format or release nothing. I'll take the data.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 11, 2009 11:51 am

it's not delays that i'm talking about. the trains and buses just don't run on a schedule at all! one of the largest obstacles to getting people to use mass transit is the perception, a correct one here in dc, that the trains and buses run rather randomly, bearing no resemblance to published schedules, and that they'll have to wait for a long time until the next bus/train. putting bad information that a buss or train will be at point x at time y only reinforces the perception when someone plans their trip around that information only to have it not be accurate.

by jr on Mar 11, 2009 11:56 am

@jr: I have a schedule on the wall in my office that lets me know what train and bus I can catch based on leaving at certain times. I've found it to be more accurate than not.

There are service delays, and problems with maintaing headways due to bus bunching, but it's a mischaracterization to assert that they don't have a schedule at all. They have one, it's just trickier to follow for buses because WMATA doesn't control the operating environment like they do for rail. For rail, I've found they're on time except when there is an incident like a broken door or a sick passenger. Different issue there.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 11, 2009 12:03 pm

@Michael Perkins: Well, Metro does publish real-time delay info, in the form of the "next train" displays in stations and on its regular and mobile-Web sites. (I won't even get into NextBus for now.) But I have no idea if GTFS can accommodate that type of dynamic data at all.

by Rob Pegoraro on Mar 11, 2009 12:04 pm

@michael perkins: then you are truly blessed by the gods of public transport, my friend.

metro should avoid making promises it can't and doesn't keep. it's a bad policy.

by jr on Mar 11, 2009 12:15 pm

@Rob Pegoraro: Thanks. I think that's our next step, to get that data published with an open API so other people can write interesting apps for real-time data. It will be great when Nextbus is working and that there's the PIDS feed on wmata.com, but with open data standards you can do stuff like this:

http://www.transitalarm.com

rings your phone when a bus is x minutes away. Works with chicago's unofficial feed.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 11, 2009 12:17 pm

@jr: Yeah, I acknowledge that I don't ride the densest, least reliable part of the system and therefore I enjoy somewhat better schedule reliability.

I'll point out that I obtained and wrote about schedule reliability for buses here and reported on train reliability here.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 11, 2009 12:36 pm

@Michael Perkins: Aren't there really two different systems at work here? On the one hand, Google Transit adds a transit option to Google Maps "directions" function. On the other hand, real-time arrivals information is often presented using the Google Map API -- NextBus does it and so does the BusTime service used by Chicago. But I'm not sure that the latter is available on the former. In other words, the random visitor in a city with Google Transit can access bus routing and official scheduling information when they go to Google Maps, but if they want real-time arrivals information, they need to go to the transit authority's website (as in Chicago). So the real-time information is not usually available on Google Transit itself?

by John Mitchell on Mar 11, 2009 12:48 pm

This is wonderful news! FYI, Alexandria's DASH is already on Google Transit. (As is the City of Fairfax's CUE, but you may know that since it wasn't in your list.)

by Scott on Mar 11, 2009 12:55 pm

@John Mitchell: That's right, by design they're two separate systems. One is reading the published official schedule information, and the other is making predictions based on GPS location devices, predicted traffic speeds and the like.

If you wanted to integrate the two, you'd have to draw a fuzzy line and give people real-time data if their trip was happening close enough to "now" (like if the vehicle had already started its trip), and written schedule data if the trip was further out than that.

It's an algorithmic process (can a currently running vehicle get you there? if yes, show real time data, if no, show schedule data), so theoretically it can be done in software. Writing such a software package might be tricky, I have very little software design experience.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 11, 2009 12:58 pm

nice bell and whistle, but the system won't work any better because of this. for schedule information to be useful, it has to be accurate, and there is NO EVIDENCE metro bus/rail runs anything close to published schedules.

by jr on Mar 11, 2009 11:20 am
it's not delays that i'm talking about. the trains and buses just don't run on a schedule at all! one of the largest obstacles to getting people to use mass transit is the perception, a correct one here in dc, that the trains and buses run rather randomly, bearing no resemblance to published schedules, and that they'll have to wait for a long time until the next bus/train. putting bad information that a buss or train will be at point x at time y only reinforces the perception when someone plans their trip around that information only to have it not be accurate.

by jr on Mar 11, 2009 11:56 am

I'll have to second JR here. I have no ideas about the train reliability, but the buses - whew, they are not reliable. I have no idea what google transit is, but for a schedule, I always go to the WMATA site, and it's been fine, but like JR said, a bus schedule is more or less useless. That's why next bus was so great, those four minutes I got to use it.

by Jazzy on Mar 11, 2009 1:19 pm

Finally getting Metro data on Google Transit/Maps is a great step forward (well at least getting the data publicly available, I'm not sure if Google will pick up the ball and do the rest of the effort to post the information without an agreement with WMATA).

As far as the complaints about system performance, let's not mix apples and oranges: yes, on-time performance IS important, but so is information. And this post was about making information available. People need information to plan trips and to realize there is an alternative to travel by automobile.

Bus performance (and other modes) can be, and should be improved, but we have to recognize the limitations of operating buses in congested traffic. As we increase ridership, we can push for transit priorities so buses and other modes get infrastructure investments to give them advantages over cars in the physical space like bus lanes and busways, priority signaling, etc.

by Jess on Mar 11, 2009 1:51 pm

Good to see Metro listening to our comments. If you called individuals on the metro board (Jim Graham, Catherine Hudgins), their office staff members will tell you that they received hundreds of e-mails on the google transit issue.

by Arch on Mar 11, 2009 2:28 pm

This is great news Michael, etc. Our emails paid off.

by dcpatton on Mar 11, 2009 2:35 pm

@Jess I agree that real-time information is more important than incremental improvements in performance. The beauty of the late lamented NextBus beta was that ultimately, you didn't have to care if Metrobus could stick to its schedule, because a quick check would tell you when the bus would actually arrive at your stop.

@Michael Perkins One of the easiest things Google Transit could do would be to cross-link their schedule data with the URL for the real-time arrivals website.

by John Mitchell on Mar 11, 2009 3:28 pm

Thank you John Mitchell!

by Jazzy on Mar 11, 2009 4:07 pm

@John Mitchell Following getting the RSS alerting me to your story here, I started watching (then listening)online to yesterday's hearings you attended. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

But after a few hours of listening to this I finally got to the part that mentions Google in the Q&A. John Catoe spoke only about making the MetroBus routes and schedules available. Do you have any clarification or a means of getting a clarification as to whether he "meant" the entire Metro System including MetroRail? People and Metro need to really take to heart that TRANSIT ONLY WORKS IN A NETWORK, so all the components and transit providers need to supply information for routing software(s), be they Google, MapQuest, etc. to work well and give people transit alternative routes that can compete with automobile trips.

This is the on-going problem with planners, providers, politicians, and advocacy groups who only think locally instead of regionally. In the "real world" people cross jurisdictions all the time, they commute/travel/move from place to place irregardless of what governmental entity they go from, through, or to. This is why people love their cars so much and why narrow thinking limits transit alternatives: freedom and mobility. Too often the transit systems exist to move people from Point A to Point B with reasonable performance, but the knowledge and integration of that information is woefully lacking and a result, people take the path of least resistance: they get in their cars and drive.

by Jess on Mar 11, 2009 4:38 pm

I would love to know what did it - lots of emails? I like to think my article about Walkscore in which I complained about Metro's holding back on this maybe generated a few emails.

by Lou DC on Mar 11, 2009 5:21 pm

@Jess: As stated above in the article, WMATA updated their facebook page to state that both rail and bus schedule information will be available.

Unless John Mitchell was the other panelist, I don't remember seeing him at the hearing.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 11, 2009 5:43 pm

A WMATA representative says on WMATA's Facebook page that it will be Metrobus and rail. Also says it will be the same data that supports the trip planner. I'm assuming that it's going to be ONLY Metrobus and Metrorail, but the trip planner also includes data for all of the local bus systems. I'd like to know for sure if that will be included or not. I'll ask on the Facebook page.

http://www.new.facebook.com/pages/Washington-Metropolitan-Area-Transit-Authority/9865116970?sid=0ac299bb4295e8bc03eb1418d8d502d4&ref=s

by Joe Chapline on Mar 11, 2009 5:51 pm

If you'd like to thank the folks at WMATA, there's a facebook discussion here:

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=9865116970&topic=7762

or you can send an email to them at

boardofdirectors@wmata.com

I think they deserve our thanks since they're doing the actual work of converting the schedule information rather than just writing about how great it would be.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 11, 2009 5:52 pm

@Jess @Michael Perkins: Wasn't there. It's all Mike.

by John Mitchell on Mar 11, 2009 5:52 pm

@Michael Perkins A thousand apologies to you Michael, putting John's name in was a slip of the Cut & Paste while I was multi-tasking. If makes you feel any better, your testimony was one of the few parts of the entire hearing that I actually watched the video instead of doing other things while I just listened.

Keep up the good work!! "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" and we need more "squeaks" like you to push for change.

by Jess on Mar 11, 2009 6:18 pm

I want to emphasis the distinction made above between Route Planning (like Google Transit) and Route Monitoring like real-time tracking, such as the AVL (automated vehicle location) system discussed.

To me, AVL has some great benefits as far as monitoring and improving performance, and some benefit for rider information. But given the technical and financial issues, I think you get much greater bang for your buck and increasing ridership if you simply help educate people that there are ways to get from Point A to Point B with transit. I realize that people get impatient and feel reassured that they know up to the minute "when" the bus or train will get there; that they are comforted and the time passes more quickly if they have a countdown. But it's a matter of a simpler effort to build one system vs. the other. It's a matter of frequency really. Providing Route & Schedule information is simpler because the information changes less frequently: weeks, months, seasons, even years. AVL systems update very frequently, a matter of seconds or minutes and have many more technical and communications issues to address; and many more technical and communications issues to break down.

I'd rather have a good, regional system for route planning which will help people get ON transit, than a system that's going to tell me the bus or train is going to be 5 minutes late. Yes, I'm glad we'll have NextBus sooner or later, but I'm happier that it could provide planners with data to analyze issues like Bus Bunching more than I am that it "might" inform people that they know when the bus will arrive with split second accuracy. I think the idea of "just in time" scheduling is a little overkill when we're talking about transit when there are so many places we can't even get transit service. Let's take a real hard look where we're spending our money and labor.

by Jess on Mar 11, 2009 6:42 pm

Whoo hoo!!! EXCELLENT work on this! I, too, have long been grumbling about getting Metro into Google and have followed the details of the debate here. Thanks for all the hard work that's been put in to make it happen. Even with delays/scheduling issues (which have to be expected and planned for in any travel situation -- walking, busing, driving, etc.) being able to find basic route info without downloading massive and clunky PDFs or using Metro's unreliable one-off system is a HUGE DEAL.

I won't even get STARTED with how amazing this will be to use with my iPhone...

by Elizabeth on Mar 11, 2009 8:55 pm

One of the key issues here is what DC Metro's Terms of Service for the GTFS data will be.

by Aaron Antrim on Mar 11, 2009 9:28 pm

It is amazing how much easier it is to plan out a transit route with google maps than with other tools. A lot more people might ride buses if they could find the best route easily. I recently just started commuting via bus from Arlington into Tysons and have found that, unbelievably, it is faster than driving. I'd probably have started riding the bus years ago if there had been an easy way to find that out.

by db on Mar 11, 2009 11:49 pm

Someday we will get this out to LA. LA's Metro is the only agency not participating in the LA metropolitan area. Ideas???

by Sirinya on Mar 12, 2009 1:35 pm

great job, metro. way to enter the 21st century!

by jkc on Mar 12, 2009 3:26 pm

except when i use google maps transit option, i still don't see the metro (sigh). after everybody celebrated in march, apparently all is still stalled in september 2009.

by Terry Oliver on Sep 20, 2009 10:54 pm

See the more recent series of posts on this topic. Metro doesn't want to sign an agreement with Google. They give three reasons:

1. They already have a trip planner
2. They would like to be paid (and they're willing to spend $500k to get a consultant to tell them how much)
3. Google can use the data already provided under Metro's terms.

See the series of posts starting here:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post.cgi?id=2966

by Michael Perkins on Sep 21, 2009 6:58 am

The transit feature does still not work on google maps for the iPhone. Very dissappointing. I have tried it Chicago and Miami and it works sweet and really makes you use public transportation.
Hope they fix it!

by JUAN on Apr 7, 2010 2:36 pm