Please join us at 1 pm for a live chat with Dr. Zachary Schrag, author of The Great Society Subway: A History of the Washington Metro.

Live Chat with Dr. Zachary Schrag(03/20/2009)
12:52
GreaterGreaterWashington: Hello and welcome to Greater Greater Washington’s live chat. Thank you all for joining us.
12:52
GreaterGreaterWashington: Today we have as our guest Dr. Zachary Schrag, Assistant Professor of History at George Mason University and author of the book “The Great Society Subway: A history of the Washington Metro”.
12:52
Zachary Schrag: Thank you for having me.
12:54
GreaterGreaterWashington: Dr. Schrag will start answering questions in a few minutes. In the meantime, you can start submitting your questions now. Just enter them in the box at the bottom of the chat window and they’ll go into our queue. Hopefully we can get to as many of them as possible in an hour.
12:58
Michael Perkins: Alright, looks like everyone’s here. Dr. Schrag, welcome to Greater Greater Washington and thanks for joining us.
12:58
Zachary Schrag: Thank you.
1:00
Michael Perkins: My first question is, how did you become interested in writing a history for the Metro system?
1:00
Zachary Schrag: I was born in New York City, and spent the first part of my childhood there, riding the subway. When we moved to Washington in 1977, Metro was only a stub of a system, running from Rhode Island Avenue to Dupont Circle. I thought it was a joke. But as I grew up, so did Metro. I was very impressed not only by the system itself, but its effect on the stretch of Wisconsin avenue from Tenleytown toward Rockville. It was one of the major events of my childhood.
1:01
Michael Perkins: From your bio online, I notice that you lived in the DC area as a child and must have experienced first-hand the second decade of Metro construction. What was that experience like?
1:01
Zachary Schrag: I thought relatively little of Metro until 1984, when it reached Friendship Heights. Then, suddenly, I had enormous freedom of travel at age 14, without a car.
1:02
Michael Perkins: We’ve had some discussions here about the freedom Metro gives adolescents and teenagers. What were some of your favorite activities you could access?
1:03
Zachary Schrag: I’m afraid I was a nerd even then. I specifically remember taking Metro to the MLK Library to work on term papers. But I also went to the old Circle theater on Pennsylvania Avenue, where a double feature cost a dollar. That makes me sound really old, doesn’t it?
1:03
Michael Perkins: As long as it’s not a nickel, no.
1:03
Michael Perkins: As the old adage says, “Those who don’t understand history are doomed to repeat it”. Are there any ways where we are at risk of not understanding Metro’s history and making mistakes?
1:03
Zachary Schrag: I would like to phrase that more positively: Those who can remember the past are able to make better decisions. In particular, I hope that policy makers who are responsible both for building the Silver and Purple lines and for planning development in those corridors understand the boldness of the original regional system and the decisions needed to take the best advantage of it.
1:04
Michael Perkins: In your assessment, how are the designers of those lines doing in terms of being bold and taking advantage of the system?
1:05
Zachary Schrag: The problem is, it seems to vary by week. One week, planners and politicans in Fairfax or Loudoun seem determined to do serious transit-oriented planning. The next week they back away. I can’t keep up.
1:06
Michael Perkins: Do you see what is being planned in Tyson’s as being analagous to what happened in Arlington?
1:07
Zachary Schrag: I’m honestly not sure what the latest plan is. I recall some years back, Fairfax brough in Andres Duany, but rejected his boldest proposals. Certainly, some of the potential is there. I a hundred years, we could have twin cities.
1:07
Michael Perkins: Let’s take a question from a commenter…
1:08
[Comment From Froggie] I’ve noticed a fair bit of research went into the Great Society Subway book and the related webpage on GMU’s website. I’ve found a few of Metro’s planning documents at the Fairfax County library, but not some of the earlier maps on the GMU site. Are these available at a library or in an archive somewhere in the area?
1:09
Zachary Schrag: My best archive was the department of special collections at George Washington University’s Gelman Library. Great materials, and great people. A lot of the published maps are held at the Washingtoniana division of the DC Public Library. For other materials, I went as far as Chicago and Boston. I even did an interview in San Francisco.
1:09
[Comment From Nick] What are your thoughts on a Blue Line under M St. downtown and H St. NE?
1:10
Zachary Schrag: I can see the need, down the road, for another river crossing. What I haven’t seen are maps showing dense employment along M Street. If they build a line under M street, but everyone works on Eye Street, you’ll still have a crowded Orange/Blue line.
1:11
Michael Perkins: So is there another east-west route that might look more promising than M Street?
1:12
Michael Perkins: Here’s another thought on the M Street tunnel:
1:12
[Comment From Froggie] Given the budget situation at ALL levels of government, plus the astronomical cost of a Blue Line under M St and a new Potomac tunnel (costs that would make Springfield and WWB look cheap), how could we even afford such a piece (even though additional potomac capacity is needed)?
1:12
Zachary Schrag: I’d have to see D.C.‘s employment projections. But you need to start with a sense of where the jobs are going to be 30 years from now.
1:13
Zachary Schrag: The paradox of Keynesian economics is that sometimes a government has to spend money amid budgetary crisis. Some of Washington’s key public works—Blue Plains, National Airport—were built in the Depression.
1:14
Michael Perkins: Steve comments that building an M street line might attract migration to the corridor. Good point, Steve.
1:15
Zachary Schrag: Sure, but does the DC government want more office development on M Street? Transit has to fit a planning scheme.
1:15
[Comment From Steve Offutt] But it works the other way, too. If the line is built under M Street, then one would expect a migration towards M Street.
1:15
[Comment From Froggie] Wouldn’t that put us even futher into a debt that it’s looking increasingly unlikely that we’ll ever repay?
1:16
Michael Perkins: It looks like DC is concentrating its efforts in growth away from the K Street Corridor. Near where I work at the Navy Yard is one example.
1:16
Zachary Schrag: The debate on levels of debt is going on at a much higher level than transit planning. In the big scheme of things, a few billion dollars out of the US treasury won’t be missed. For local governments, it’s more of a concern. But transportation should be one of their top priorities.
1:17
Zachary Schrag: Again, I lose track of how various debates end up. But maybe a river crossing over the new Wilson bridge would be a higher priority.
1:17
Michael Perkins: Let’s go to a question on the history of the system.
1:17
[Comment From Andy] Speaking of mistakes - if we could go back, and do it all over again, what do you think should have been done differently? (Lack of “express tracks” come to mind) Do you think some of Metro’s shortfalls can be explained by poor planning/implementation, or did the planners really do the best they could given the political/economic reality of the time? Thanks for taking our questions.
1:18
Zachary Schrag: The failure to build to Tysons in the first place dwarfs any other mistakes in the system. We’re talking about tens of thousands of people, clustered together, with no rail service. I think the express track idea is mistated. What makes New York unusual is not that it has express tracks, but that it has hyper-local tracks, with stops as close together as six blocks. There’s nowhere in the Washington region with density to justify that.
1:19
Michael Perkins: How far apart are NYC’s express stops compared to DC. For example, on the 4-line (Lexington Ave.)?
1:20
Zachary Schrag: I did my doctorate at Columbia University, so let me answer about the West Side. The Broadway local has stops at 96th, 103d, 110th, 116th, and 125th, in an area that is by no means a commercial downtown. That makes sense given the concentration of apartment buildings, but the Washington area doesn’t have that.
1:21
[Comment From Froggie] But the lack of additional tracks causes problems when maintenance or other emergencies require single-tracking, which causes considerable delays (especially when it happens at rush hour).
1:21
David Alpert: And there are 20 streets to a mile, so these stops are as little as a quarter mile apart.

1:21
Michael Perkins: It’s probably a matter of cost at this point. Is it worth it to spend billions to serve the people that are already being served, albeit a little bit better, or to serve new markets?
1:22
Zachary Schrag: In much of engineering, you can’t afford to build too much redundant capacity for emergencies. It’s like driving a moving van to work every day because once a year you need to move furniture.
1:22
Michael Perkins: Let’s talk about other rail systems.
1:22
[Comment From Rob] When I travel to the S.F. Bay Area, I’m fascinated by how much the slightly older (and, IMHO, far less useful) BART system resembles Metro in some ways but differs from it in others. To what extent were Metro’s designers keeping an eye on, and learning from, the progress of BART?
1:22
Zachary Schrag: As I like to point out, there are four tracks between Farragut Square and Capitol Hill. Two red, two blue-orange. It’s nicer to serve more territory than to have all four go right next to each other.
1:24
Zachary Schrag: BART and Metro are first cousins, and some people worked on both systems. Also, the rail cars came from the same manufacturer. But BART was much bolder in engineering; they even built their own test track. Metro’s builders wanted proven technology. Another difference is that BART is much more of a commuter rail system, with stations spaced farther apart. Metro is a hybrid commuter rail/urban rapid transit system.
1:25
Michael Perkins: BART is just now making some of the decisions to bring in TOD and infill stations similar to what Arlington did from the beginning
1:26
Zachary Schrag: Yes, there’s been criticism of BART’s lack of development in station areas. As I recall, many highway interchanges in the East Bay are better built up.
1:26
Michael Perkins: BTW: BART is the system I grew up on. Grew up in the East Bay. (Ed note: I don’t know why during the chat I said “born and raised. I was born in San Diego.)
1:26
Zachary Schrag: Is Flint’s Barbeque still in business?
1:27
Michael Perkins: Sorry, Haven’t heard of it. I lived more out in the San Ramon Valley so if that’s a Fremont or Hayward thing I’m not familiar.
1:27
Zachary Schrag: I vaguely recall that Flint’s was near a BART station, but that there was nothing around it.
1:27
Zachary Schrag: Somewhere in Oakland.
1:28
[Comment From David Alpert] I’m interested in the circumstances of Arlington’s brilliant decision to put the Orange Line under the Wilson Blvd corridor. At that time, most suburban leaders were thinking the opposite way. They saw transit as being about large park-and-rides, which is what Fairfax did. But for some reason Arlington made this visionary move that we all understand today but was pretty strange at the time. None of the SF Bay Area jurisdictions did it, for example, with a similar system being built at the same time. What set the leaders or residents of Arlington apart?
1:28
Zachary Schrag: Arlington County has just produced a documentary film, “Arlington’s Smart Growth Journey,” on just this subject. I’m afraid I have yet to see the film, but I received progress reports during its creation, and I know that it documents this development better than I did in my book. I hope the county finds a way to distribute it widely, not just for local interest, but as a tool for planners and citizens nationwide.
1:28
Zachary Schrag: Maybe you could get a review copy, and have one of the producers live-blog.
1:29
Michael Perkins: According to Arlington County, there’s going to be a free screening of this program at the Library in May.
1:30
[Comment From Mary Curtius] Since you brought up Arlington…Dr. Schrag helped us go back and reconstruct how Arlington aggressively pursued Metro—and lobbied for lots of stations, close together—and then planned for high-density development around those stations. Check out our documentary (with interviews with Prof. Schrag) at: http://arlington.granicus.com/ASX.php?publish_id=211&sn=arlington.granicus.com You can also see it on AVN’s web page under Documentaries at http://arlington.granicus.com/ViewPublisher.php?view_id=4.
1:30
Zachary Schrag: It should be great. Growing up in D.C., I learned to sneer at all of Northern Virginia. But in writing the dissertation that became the book, I came to have a lot of respect for Arlington. So I was very excited to become a resident in 2004.
1:30
Michael Perkins: Mary Curtius works for Arlington County. Thanks, Mary.
1:31
Michael Perkins: Ok, there’s a lot of questions here. I’ll try to get to more of them
1:31
[Comment From Bob] Do you think they should extend Metro out to Dulles (and possibly, in the future, out to Gainesville)? I feel that at some point you need to let the commuter rail system/VRE take over. If I recall correctly, Paris, for instance, runs their commuter rail system out to the airport and that seems to work well.
1:31
Michael Perkins: And similarly,
1:31
[Comment From Froggie] What about other Metrorail extensions? There’s been discussion off and on about extending the Yellow or Blue Lines down to Belvoir (Fairfax County plan suggests Yellow line), or even down to Potomac Mills (PWC plan), extending the Orange line further west along I-66, and even a proposal from a Maryland official a few years ago to extend the Green Line up to BWI. Thoughts on those?
1:32
Michael Perkins: Sorry for the discontinuity, but here’s more information from Mary about the documentary.
1:32
[Comment From Mary Curtius] We also invite all to see a free public screening of the documentary at 7 p.m. on Monday, May 11 at Arlington Central Library—followed by a panel discussion. (Prof. Schrag, I’ve been meaning to call you about being on that panel).
1:32
[Comment From Mary Curtius] and we would love to live-blog about the making of the video and what we learned.
1:32
Zachary Schrag: I think it’s a mistake to think of the Silver Line as just an airport line. The Dulles corridor, stretching into Loudoun, has for a long time been one of the fastest growing parts of the region. A big function of that line may be to bring commuters from Loudoun to Tysons. And, with luck, to encourage smart growth in Loudoun.
1:33
Michael Perkins: How long will the travel time from the airport be? It seems like it’s going to be a long ride…
1:33
Zachary Schrag: While I’m excited by the Purple and Silver lines, I think there are dangers of getting too ambitious all at once. Of course, an Orange Line extension to the George Mason University Fairfax Campus should be a top priority. I would like to be let off between the history department and the library.
1:34
Michael Perkins: LOL! We’ll start advocating for that extension right away!
1:34
[Comment From Tom Metcalf] Reading your book, and looking at some of freeway wars exhibits at the Building Museum, it seems to me that in the ‘60s and ‘70s, progressive leaders (citizens and elected officials) had a clear sense of transportation equity and the downsides of too many cars. But it also seems like many of these same leaders forgot all about that in the ‘80s and now just drive everywhere and whine about a lack of parking. Is there anything in particular that caused the anti-freeway activists to forget about the downsides of an auto-dependent society?
1:35
Zachary Schrag: Getting from, say, the Capitol to Dulles would be a long ride indeed. But getting from Tysons to the airport would be quick, and a lot of firms locate in Tysons in part to have airport access. Also, the average commute times in this region are already pretty high. So if someone has an airport job (and airports are enormous employers), they may be happy to have a long commute if they don’t have to drive.
1:37
Zachary Schrag: I’m not sure which anti-freeway activists you are referring to.
1:38
Michael Perkins: I’ll wait for Tom to clarify, but in the meantime we can talk about some non-heavy rail systems.
1:38
[Comment From Noah] In addition to a dense urban subway, New York is also served by a functional and widely-used commuter rail system. How might the commuter rail systems in DC—MARC and VRE—improve their service? Could that take some pressure off of Metro to expand (at great cost) to far-flung locations like Loudoun County and BWI?
1:38
[Comment From Matthew] What do you make of the proposals for streetcars on H St NE and in Anacostia? And Columbia Pike? Useful? Should they me run by Metro? Do you think they’ll try to do it with overhead wires (Congressional forbidden in much of DC)?
1:38
[Comment From Froggie] What about other rail nodes? There’s been a lot of talk about LRT (Purple Line and CCT) and streetcars (Columbia Pike and DC’s proposed system). Are there any other areas (or even currently discussed areas) which may not necessarily support Metrorail, but which would support LRT or streetcars?
1:39
Zachary Schrag: That’s a good question about commuter rail, but one beyond my expertise. I do think that MARC and VRE have done impressive work, and certainly MARC is a good way to get to BWI.
1:39
Michael Perkins: How about streetcars or light rail?
1:40
Zachary Schrag: Light rail is pretty controversial among planners and scholars. Since it’s capacity isn’t phenomenally greater than bus rapid transit, critics ask why not do the same things with buses. As soon as you move to rail, you have challenges of maintenance for both right of way and rolling stock.
1:41
Michael Perkins: We’ve neglected a big part of your book so far. Here’s a question about art and public space design:
1:41
[Comment From Geoff Hatchard] Dr. Schrag: Let me just tell you I own and love the book! Here’s a question: what do you think about the push to add advertising inside the stations, trains, etc. I know that the aesthetic was a big part of the design and building of the system (as almost a Great Society work-of-art). Are you opposed to cluttering up the looks of the system, or do you think it’s necessary to keep it funded?
1:43
Zachary Schrag: Architect Harry Weese wasn’t opposed to all advertising, but he wanted it controlled. I think with the right design standards, both for placement and content, ads could be better integrated into the system design. Do you remember the early 2000s campaign for the iPod, with silhouetted people dancing against bright backgrounds? Those kinds of ads—heavy on graphic design, light on text—could work very well in Metro.
1:44
Michael Perkins: Tom has gotten back to us about the anti-freeway activists.
1:44
[Comment From Tom Metcalf] Well, Marion Barry was one of the ECTC organizers listed on the poster that’s at the NBM. And I know some longtime Brookland residents are listed as ECTC organizers but who don’t seem to go anywhere except by car.
1:45
Michael Perkins: I think the question was about anti-freeway activists forgetting the lessons of the past with respect to too many cars. Now the activists, according to Tom, drive everywhere and complain about the lack of parking.
1:45
Zachary Schrag: Some of the ECTC folks turned against Metro as early as 1973. I think that group was more of a NIMBY organization than a pro-transit organization. Nor do I think it was very effective. In my book, I give much more credit for the defeat of the highways to the Committee of 100.
1:46
Michael Perkins: We talk a lot about Metro’s relationship with its customers here on GGW. Here’s a comment about that.
1:46
[Comment From John C.] One common criticism of WMATA has less to do with actual service but more to do with interaction with the public. These issues include things like poor communication (both in the stations and through other media), board members who don’t actually ride the system, mixed levels of openness to internal decisionmaking, etc. I was wondering if your studies of the growth of metro provided any indication of how things got to be where they are today, from a cultural standpoint. How has public opinion of Metro today differed over the years?
1:47
Zachary Schrag: Cody Pfanstiehl served as director of community affairs from 1962 (before there was a WMATA) until 1982. Then he retired, and WMATA has yet to find someone as empathetic and dedicated as he. That’s not too surprising; Cody (who died recently) was one of the most decent people I have ever met. I miss him.
1:48
Michael Perkins: Was director of community affairs sort of a riders’ ombudsman?
1:49
Zachary Schrag: Cody did everything from drumming up support for bond referenda to resolving complaints. A lot of what he did was to explain to people what was going on. He understood that if Washingtonians heard a rational explanation for a decision, they would be much more likely to accept that decision than if it were presented as a fiat.
1:50
Michael Perkins: Does WMATA even have someone with that kind of job description anymore?
1:50
Zachary Schrag: I wouldn’t know whom to ask.
1:50
Michael Perkins: I’ll look into it.
1:51
Michael Perkins: John’s comment brings up a question I wanted to ask. When did the DC community start to think that this new system was actually going to work?
1:51
Michael Perkins: People were probably skeptical at first, especially with the streets all torn up!
1:51
Zachary Schrag: Probably not until spring-summer of 1978, two years into operation. That’s when ridership really started to climb.
1:52
Michael Perkins: You wrote a little in your book about DC Transit, the bus system that became Metrobus. Here’s a question about that:
1:52
[Comment From Rob] Let me know if this is too far afield, but… when Metro took over all the bus routes, did it ever consider optimizing or consolidating them? The fact that so many bus route names happen to be old D.C. Transit streetcar route numbers suggests that nobody at Metro has thought much about the bus system as an integrated whole.
1:53
Zachary Schrag: The bus takeover was a bit of an emergency. There was some talk of rationalizing the routes, but even producing a map of all four systems’ routes proved a challenge. WMATA inherited not only the routes, but also the union contracts and a lot of bad blood among workers. So cancelling routes could have let to more labor strife. I think that even today, the workers are split between two different unions.
1:54
Michael Perkins: They are. I believe they are ATU Local 689 and Local 2
1:54
[Comment From Matthew] Metro Org chart: see CREL (Community Relations) and PREL (Public relations): http://www.wmata.com/pdfs/Visio-neworgan_Internet.pdf
1:54
Michael Perkins: Thanks, Matt.
1:54
Zachary Schrag: Karl Marx wrote, men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please. That’s certain true in transit planning.
1:55
[Comment From Matthew] Should we be concerned that Metro seems to be reaching ridership capacity?
1:56
Zachary Schrag: If they can get 8-car trains going, that’s a bit of room. But it’s not infinite room, which is why a 30- or 50-year plan would be very helpful. In some cases, demand will level off, as neighborhoods are built to their maximum density. But there’s still a lot of building to be done in the District, Arlington, and elsewhere.
1:56
Michael Perkins: Especially with the new line to Tyson’s/Dulles, I think that’s a real concern
1:57
Michael Perkins: Perhaps they’ll end up diverting all the blue line traffic over the long bridge?
1:58
Zachary Schrag: As an earlier participant noted, the trip all the way from downtown to Dulles would be very long, so perhaps not many people will take the whole ride. If most of the Silver Line traffic is within Virginia, they could turn around trains and put less stress on the tunnel. (Not that I know where’s there’s room to turn trains in Arlington.)
1:58
Michael Perkins: Geoff Hatchard has an idea I’ve long thought about: A one-day shutdown to show what the region is like without Metro.
1:58
[Comment From Geoff Hatchard] Whenever I hear complaints about the cost of Metro (fare costs), I wonder if people think about the other costs (I guess you’d call that externalities?), like how would our city even function without the system now that it’s become ingrained into our lives. Would you condone a one-day strike of Metro (like a shut-down) to demonstrate to people just how messed up things would be if we suddenly didn’t have it?
1:59
Michael Perkins: I don’t know if Management or Labor is allowed to do this, but the riders could if we were suffiicently organized (and a little bit crazy)
1:59
Zachary Schrag: Maybe all the Orange Line delays that hit me are miniature versions of that idea.
1:59
[Comment From Froggie] Concerning the new Silver Line, given that a large percentage (I believe Michael came up with 63% or thereabouts) or Orange Line users have origins/destinations east of Falls Church, it’s possible that some Silver Line trains could simply replace existing Orange Line runs east of Falls Church, with the only negative being some loss of service at the 3 stations at the end of the Orange Line. Thoughts on that?
2:00
Michael Perkins: That’s going to be our last question. Thanks for all the questions, guys!
2:00
Zachary Schrag: So I’m hearing a proposal for a George Mason University express line? I love this blog.
2:01
Michael Perkins: Thanks! I loved your book and know a lot of readers agree. Any final thoughts?
2:02
Zachary Schrag: I appreciate all the questions. Writing a book is an act of faith—a lot of work in the hopes that someone will be interested. I’m very glad some many people do seem to be.
2:02
Michael Perkins: Thanks for coming. David, anything to add?
2:02
GreaterGreaterWashington: Thanks, Dr. Schrag! And thanks to everyone who participated. Special thanks to Michael Perkins, for moderating and arranging the chat.
2:02
GreaterGreaterWashington: Our next chat will be this coming Wednesday, starring Metro board chair and DC Councilmember Jim Graham. We’ll post details on the blog.
2:03
GreaterGreaterWashington: And feel free to continue the discussion on any of today’s topics in the comments.
2:03

Michael Perkins blogs about Metro operations and fares, performance parking, and any other government and economics information he finds on the Web. He lives with his wife and two children in Arlington, Virginia.