I like the idea, too many stops in the inner core. I would also consider running it out 29 to White Oak (new federal installation).

by Andrew on Jun 26, 2009 9:01 am • link • report

Presumably Metro would need more rail cars than it currently has in order to separate and extend the Yellow line in this manner. Do you have an estimate of how many more rail cars it would need?

by dave-el on Jun 26, 2009 9:33 am • link • report

Whether they build a below grade metro or an on grade trolley line, it seems this line is inevitable. If you drive Georgia Avenue you can see where the stops ought to be, probably where they where when the Avenue originally had them. Georgia Avenue is lined with "main Street" architecture all the way to Silver Spring with some missing "teeth", all the more suitable to packing them in and leaving the historic character of whats standing now.

by Thayer-D on Jun 26, 2009 10:18 am • link • report

With serious discussion (hopefully) around separating Orange and Blue and now GGW talking about separating Yellow and Green, what about separating Yellow and Blue?

Arlington has been talking about the Columbia Pike Street Car to continue their high density growth. Metro would obviously give that a huge shot in the arm if Blue ran along Columbia Pike. Perhaps once past Bailey's Crossroads, they could run the line due south and hit Landmark Mall, which Alexandria would love to redesign before it meets back up with the current line at Van Dorn Street station. The negative is that Alexandria couldn't use infill stations along the Eisenhower Valley area. But that could be the impetus behind a VA portion of the purple line. And it would then allow some capacity along Blue and Yellow to expand down the Route 1 corridor and Blue to Fort Belvoir.

Other than expense, wouldn't this be an important expansion to some sizable populations/jobs with the huge ability to redesign some poorly considered sprawl parts of the region inside the Belway?

by Tim Fry on Jun 26, 2009 10:19 am • link • report

I don't know if the link to the larger map is working correctly (I can't see the imbeded map for comparison). The map I see (following the link) has it splitting off of the Green Line after L'Enfant Plaza, a design which would add no overall capacity whatsoever.
I had thought about the possibility of splitting the Green Line and Yellow Line instead of the Blue and Orange, but ultimately I think splitting off the Blue and Orange is a better idea. Either way, you increase maximum core capacity from 3 tunnels to 4 tunnels but I just think the new Blue Line tunnel would service more important areas and cost less than this Yellow Line tunnel would. Given that once the new Blue Line is built, this new Yellow Line would not increase capacity unless the Blue and the Yellow are also split, I don't think such a new Yellow Line would be worthwhile to build until capacity issue force Metro to consider splitting the Yellow Line from both Green and Blue (and at that point it might only go from the Pentagon to Union Station at first).

by Mario on Jun 26, 2009 10:46 am • link • report

Great to be talking fantasy maps again. I had a similar thought around New Years for a means to put more metro on GA Ave. GA Avenue is very underutilized. I think you could get an "Orangeton" like Clarendon/Wilson Blvd effect between 7th-Georgia/9th-Sherman. My idea began with the red line, but as the feedback went 60+ comments deep I began to see that the yellow line was the better option. Sandbox John posted an interesting map even if he did forget to label the stations north of Petworth.

I would say I still favor the greater emphasis on keeping part of the yellow line through downtown. Connecting ridership with job and entertainment districts is important. Keeping the yellow downtown also retains a direct connection for downtown to National Airport. I think the Separated Blue line is the only additional line Union Station needs.

by Paul S on Jun 26, 2009 10:53 am • link • report

Hmm. A Capitol Hill station is a good idea, but better to deck/expand the current First Street tunnel and put a station on the east side. (Perhaps drop it between the Library and the Supreme Court, and close that section of East Capitol to traffic?). The west side of the Capitol is actually a big dead zone, without access to much of anything.

by Steve on Jun 26, 2009 11:26 am • link • report

Re: sandbox john's map - the only issue with that is that Yellow and Green still ride together so you do not gain capacity, do you? Just stations?

by Tim Fry on Jun 26, 2009 11:27 am • link • report

@Tim Fry

My thoughts on that are that the Green/Yellow really isn't near capacity and they can continue to coexist for a little while. Could we add Sandbox Johns stations in a Phase I - then down the line when capacity becomes much more of an issue a Phase II split off Green and Yellow downtown could occur. Run one or the other two blocks away under 9th Street between the L'Enfant area and the Shaw Station where they would diverge anyway.

by Paul S on Jun 26, 2009 11:42 am • link • report

Tim, I agree with you about your concern. The only way to have true 'full capacity' would be for every line to run on their separate lines, like the Red. I imagine the practicalities of scheduling yellow lines is quite difficult as it shares track with blue and green trains at various locations. Limiting lines to sharing tracks with just one other color seems the best bet and will present some real problems once the silver line starts sharing with the orange and blue (and blue with yellow) through the tunnel. The Blue will need to be separated through DC for this all to work, especially with the epically capable technology built into our rail cars!

by NikolasM on Jun 26, 2009 12:17 pm • link • report

Hopefully the idea of laying new track / building new tunnels will gain some currency after the Red Line disaster -- some redundancy will go a long way.

I like the idea of building to some of the denser areas uptown, then reconnecting at Silver Spring (offering a new connection not just to the Red Line but also MARC and the future Purple Line). But I wonder if an alignment up 14th or 16th St. wouldn't be better than Georgia Ave.

Also, what happens to Walter Reed Army Medical Center after BRAC? Is it as important to build a station here?

The alignment down North Capitol is interesting, but I'm not sure the investment would be warranted. Plus those stations are awfully close for Metro. I think the alignment proposed by Paul S might make more sense, given the redevelopment at McMillan and AFRH. For instance, Yellow could split from Green after the Convention Center, with a station near North Capitol and Rhode Island and another one or two to serve the Hospital Center / McMillan / AFRH, before cutting west toward the Georgia Ave / 14th / 16th alignment.

The alignment downtown is fun, but I think it'll be a hell of time killing the one-seat connection from National to the Convention Center. Plus, tunneling there would be very expensive and disruptive. And do we really need another stop on Capitol Hill? ;) Seriously, I do think the connection to the Capitol and Union Station would add useful connectivity, but the question is where you go from there -- I don't think the North Capitol alignment is that important and I think the Convention Center connection is. Unless you want to run northwest from Union Station to the Convention Center, but that's a long distance of track without much use for a station between (thanks to 395).

by Gavin Baker on Jun 26, 2009 12:41 pm • link • report

I so wish this would come to pass. I am biased as I live in Brightwood. Maybe the Feds could ante up in return for increased desity at the remade Walter Reed campus.

by Lee in DC` on Jun 26, 2009 12:42 pm • link • report

Georgia Ave should be served by light rail. It should begin at the Petworth metro station and continue to Silver Spring (hopefully at the new transit center). This would not cost much money, given that the streets are being reconstructed in the "Great Streets" initiative anyways. It's just a matter of putting in a concrete streetcar pad and electrical conduits like they're doing on H St and Benning. If you live in Ward 4, demand that they have the foresight to move forward with this extremely modest investment during the Georgia Ave great streets plan beginning this fall. Otherwise, it will fall by the wayside or be redone 6 years down the road.

by SG on Jun 26, 2009 12:54 pm • link • report

@Gavin - I suppose I'm not understanding why cutting across to 16th Street after hitting the Washington Hospital Center is a superior option to Georgia Avenue. 16th is pinned up against Rock Creek most of that way. Georgia has a chance to be a great commercial corridor with rail investment.

@SG - we discussed Light Rail for Georgia Ave in the comments of the old posting. While you can have light rail in mixed traffic - I think six miles and 60+ intersections may be too much. The Georgia ROW is only 80 ft wide with 2-way traffic. The cities I've visited with light rail have a blend of dedicated ROW to mixed traffic rather than all mixed traffic. Plus, they often pair two one way streets for the mixed traffic segments rather than have one street of limited ROW accommodate traffic in both directions.

by Paul S on Jun 26, 2009 1:13 pm • link • report

Fantasy maps are fun.

My criticisms: I would change the routing between L'Enfant Plaza and Union Station. First, this plan still has a bottleneck at L'Enfant Plaza. Second, this plan proposes to tunnel under Maryland Avenue, which would nix the Amtrak/VRE realignment and restoration of Maryland Avenue that's proposed in the National Capital Framework Plan.

My plan:

1. Lower the CSX/RFP under Maryland Avenue for a new, probably 3 track approach to Union Station from the south for Amtrak and VRE. This will add capacity for the future, and make the approach straighter and faster.

2. Reuse the (now abandoned, due to #1 above) first street tunnel for the Yellow Line.

Rather than curving the Yellow Line north to join the Green line, curve it due east under E Street, crossing the Green Line at a (nearly) right angle, a block south of the current L'Enfant Plaza station. Build a platform there, and connect it with the existing L'Enfant Plaza complex with a ~200` tunnel. This allows transfers between Green and Yellow.

New Yellow Line then curves north and enters the Amtrak ROW, and into the 1st street tunnel . Metro will never need more than 2 tracks, so the tunnel is just fine for that, and using the existing tunnel will save on construction costs and avoid disruption. Stations would be at Capitol South and Union Station, and probably nowhere between (since that would mean tearing up the 1st street tunnel more than necessary).

by orulz on Jun 26, 2009 1:58 pm • link • report

1. Light-rail in mixed traffic is slow as hell. I live near the ocean in San Francisco and have to deal with LRVs that crawl along city streets before reaching the Market St. subway at West Portal. Even the new T-Third line with its separated trackbed is slower than the bus it replaced because trains don't have signal priority at intersections.

2. Having lived in DC and Arlington throughout the 90s I always envisioned a separate yellow line running the length of 7th St/Georgia Ave to Silver Spring. (In fact, I'd extend the yellow line past SS along the MARC tracks to connect to Rockville adding an infill station at Kensington.) The direct line from the convention center to National is important to keep, especially as development around the convention center continues.

3. Because of the layout of the system, the NYC subway runs a shuttle train between Times Square and Grand Central. It follows a now defunct line that once connected the east side Lexington Ave. line with the west side. I don't know how much demand there'd be, but Metro could employ a similar shuttle between Union Station and South Capitol, perhaps utilizing the First St. tunnel.

by sf4fun66 on Jun 26, 2009 2:03 pm • link • report

If you wanted to re-purpose the color yellow without sacrificing the convention center to DCA connection, you could build a metrorail connection between Huntington and Branch Ave across the Wilson Bridge on the 495 median. Then just have it run in a big loop (in both directions, how to designate them I'm not sure, clockwise and counter-clockwise?) and call it all the Green Line, plus you'd get a stop near National Harbor.

(I'm skeptical of the value of the convention center DCA connection; I've ridden the by the convention center for 2.5 years and it's almost always dead as a doornail. Most passengers are people who wanted to go to U Street or Columbia Heights and didn't know the yellow line stopped there - or that's my impression, at least)

by Steve on Jun 26, 2009 2:33 pm • link • report

It's important that such plans be coordinated with planning for the new Blue line as well.

http://cityblock.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/fantasies/

Also, the whole idea of separating the line means that you'd increase capacity on the already existing Green line as well. If you simply use 7th street alone, you don't accomplish that at all.

by Alex B. on Jun 26, 2009 2:44 pm • link • report

If we're going to take it out to White Oak, might as well finish the job and go to Burtonsville, too. I don't know if the ridership in Montgomery County justifies heavy rail (even to White Oak), but it would be nice to dream.

by dan reed on Jun 26, 2009 3:29 pm • link • report

Interesting idea. Michael S. had proposed something like this a couple years ago, a brown line, which I incorporated into this map, which David A. graciously produced for me:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rllayman/2281813917/

which I used in my writings on the topic.

The neighborhoods east of Georgia and north of Kansas don't have a lot of density, which is why bus service is so limited. And is therefore an indicator that it's hard to justify heavy rail in low ridership situations, although I'd love a Manor Park stop...

Still, redundancy is an important issue. I think that some form of light rail is necessary for North Capitol/Blair (although Blair is too narrow) and of course for Georgia Avenue. The point about speed is a good one.

(Note that separately I've written that Takoma Park and DC should plan a streetcar line from Walter Reed to Takoma station out Carroll Ave. to University Blvd. to connect to the Purple Line and back, connecting all of Takoma Park's commercial districts. DK how they'd pay for it.)

But remember that the Purple line will be integrated into the Metro system in terms of fares. If light rail went up Georgia Avenue and then somehow, for some distance in Montgomery County, either up Georgia or Colesville or both, with a major terminus at Silver Spring and then on into DC, there would be no problem with people getting off and transfering to the red line for a faster trip downtown.

The point is to have a system that can accommodate intra-city demands along with more suburban demands.

DC's only really planning for streetcars.

I have advocated that certain lines should be considered in terms of light rail, and that the city needs to reach out and work with Montgomery and Prince George's Counties in a more systematic and rigorous way to plan a joint system. (Remember that it is up to the individual jurisdictions now, not WMATA, to plan for expansion.)

DC tends to be pretty parochial in planning, residents especially. However, major interdiction of traffic into and out of the city on streets like Georgia Ave., Connecticut, Wisconsin, Rhode Island, Michigan, and North Capitol could be interdicted with a significant light rail-streetcar system, linked to the heavy rail and railroad hubs, tightly coupling DC with PG and Montgomery Counties...

by Richard Layman on Jun 26, 2009 4:44 pm • link • report

S***. I meant major interdiction of traffic, meaning a serious reduction, of Marylanders driving into and out of DC would be a major benefit to DC residents, and therefore justifies DC taking a more expansive and regional approach to light rail and streetcar planning. Hopefully DC residents would take a more expansive attitude about this. E.g., I remember at a now Rte. 79 meeting in 2005 or 2006 arguing with some particularly parochial DC residents about why it would be a bad idea for DC to have the bus route stop at Eastern Avenue and not continue on to Silver Spring. He swore, I didn't.

Still, some DC residents in the morning ride up GA and 16th Streets to Silver Spring and the subway, rather than ride the bus south all the way downtown...

People need to get out of the habit of thinking that people use transit in only a couple of ways.

by Richard Layman on Jun 26, 2009 4:49 pm • link • report

OK, let's say LRT is the right mode for discussions sake. I still think you've got to try to get some dedicated ROW rather than go mixed traffic all the way from Silver Spring to Downtown as that crosses 60 intersections. What options for ROW are there other than the median of the two way road? None?

Georgia just realistically isn't wide enough for a median ROW that accomodates two way LRT traffic. What if we made the LRT route a loop rather than entirely along Georgia? I think one lane of Median ROW is possible to claim from Georgia.

View Untitled in a larger map

I put the southern most stop at M Street at the convention center. Going two blocks south to Mount Vernon Square might be visually appealing but then you have to contend with all the traffic from NY,Mass and K Street. Mind as well put the station at M street IMO.

On the east side of the loop the route just stays on 7th/GA all the way to Silver Spring. The west side requires more complexity. It goes 9th to Sherman to Spring to 13th then perhaps tunnel under Walter Reed back to 13th to Eastern to Silver Spring Transit center. At most points each side of the loop stays within two blocks of each other - which i think is necessary. But there are a few segments where it stretches out a little further than that.

by Paul S on Jun 26, 2009 5:52 pm • link • report

A one way loop? Single track? That's an operational nightmare. What happens if a train breaks down? You've got no crossovers. Single tracking isn't even really possible, you've got to go one way the whole way.

The only LRT systems that go with one way loops are places downtown and then only for a couple of blocks.

The reasons for going with a separate Yellow line are not just to get good transit in the area, but also to eliminate the shared track with the Green line, thus increasing that line's max capacity.

You're right, however, that LRT needs dedicated ROW. If not, then it's just a streetcar. That's fine, but I don't think it has the same potential, nor does it address the overall needs of the Metro system.

by Alex B. on Jun 26, 2009 6:11 pm • link • report

Redundancy of a spoke seems like a poor choice of funds. That section is actually the only part with some redundancy built in right now. The additional linkages between metro lines is why the proposed Blue line is rarely criticized.

Sending the Yellow to connect with the other side of the Red seems has the potential to divert people off the Red prior to the downtown connector stops, which would probably make many people happy.

by Peter on Jun 26, 2009 6:31 pm • link • report

With regard to running the line north of Silver Spring, I think perhaps somehow following the MARC ROW through Kensington to Grosvenor and then over the Montgomery Mall would be a good idea. A light rail running up US-29 all the way to Columbia could serve that corridor, serving the dense-but-spread-out east MoCo apartment complexes and industries.

I definitely think that IF this sort of thing happens, it should take second banana to the Blue Line split.

Also, for the added capacity to work, orulz's suggestions above would probably have to be taken. Very pleased to see interest in this concept!

by Dave Murphy on Jun 26, 2009 6:37 pm • link • report

Interesting theory, but I have 2 doses of reality:

- Most likely, any rail transit in this corridor will be streetcar or LRT, not Metrorail.

- An extension of the Yellow Line on the other side (south of Huntington) is more likely to happen than this Yellow Line extension.

by Froggie on Jun 26, 2009 7:15 pm • link • report

@Alex B

Yes, a one way single tracked loop. One way can work from the rider perspective if the outbound and inbound never are too far separated. The Portland Streetcar basically does this one way two blocks apart strategy on almost it's entire route (in mixed traffic). Although it is true that their route weaves in several criss crosses.

I've edited the map to allow a criss cross between New Hampshire Ave and Kansas Ave. I recognize for 12 miles of track that's not enough. A few non revenue tracks connecting the east and west sides of the loop might be possible for skipping around those rare broken down trains.

I do not dispute your comment that this only improves transit along Georgia but does not achieve the goal of separating the Yellow Line and increasing heavy rails capacity. That was not my goal. Layman has been adamant that Georgia Ave cannot support heavy rail in both this thread and the January thread. My aim was to take his assumption as fact for discussion's sake and talk about what could be done to achieve LRT with dedicated row and see where the conversation goes.

by Paul S on Jun 26, 2009 8:28 pm • link • report

I would like to see the Yellow Line extended northward along the US 29 corridor, on elevated grade if necessary, as far as it is feasible. US 29 is not a fun ride. Then again, I would also like to see the Baltimore-Washington Maglev built, but it is probably more feasible just to extend the Yellow. Light rail is a nice idea, maybe something like the San-Fran Muni would work where it runs on street level down Georgia, enters a portal near the resivoir, and runs under Capitol Street for the rest of the line.

by lexslamman on Jun 27, 2009 11:01 am • link • report

With the process of spliting the lines up why not split them before L'Enfant Plaza.

You could have one go to L'Enfant Plaza and the other to Federal Center SW, Capitol South or Eastern Market wth that you could create a line that travels through areas in NE that does not have train service.

You could have the line serve stations on the new blue line in Northeast and serve areas that have no present service; from there you could have the line go west and meet up at either Rhode Island Ave, Brookland or a new station with the red line.

You could then continue west and meet with the line that will go the current route at Georgia Ave and go where ever from there.

by kk on Jun 27, 2009 12:24 pm • link • report

I guess the one reason to build underground, even though the ridership doesn't justify it so much, is the reality that Georgia Ave. is narrow, and building efficient surface rail is impossible. Thanks in any event for the great thinking and discussion. The redundancy issue is important.

by Richard Layman on Jun 29, 2009 7:06 am • link • report

Note that I am coming around on the idea of a separated yellow line, for a couple reasons. Mostly redundancy, but also because the long term impact, meaning over 30 years, could and would lead to intensity-density in key places. And depending on the routing it can provide service to necessary areas that are seriously underserved now.

To do this it is required to significantly diverge from kk's ideas in terms of efficacy (although I appreciate the creativity and thought behind it), the different routing employed vis-a-vis Dave Murphy's does bring up a different idea, but rather than focus on areas east of the red line, I think it makes more sense to focus on areas west of the redline and east of the green line, in short, rather than go so far eastward, go over towards North Capitol, up North Capitol and serve McMillan Reservoir, the Washington Hospital Center, the future North Capitol Cloverleaf "park" and the development on the southside of the AFRH, and then curve over to Georgia Avenue and up, with stops maybe at Kennedy Street, Missouri/Military Road, Piney Branch, and Walter Reed (especially if the campus is significantly redeveloped) and Silver Spring (and probably at least at one place between Walter Reed and Silver Spring, either at Eastern Ave. or probably more likely in Silver Spring), and perhaps beyond. one that would go on a routing from Mt. Vernon Square that would provide service to the Washington Hospital Center.

I still have to think about this, but I appreciate the opportunity to have my ideas be challenged.

by Richard Layman on Jun 29, 2009 1:24 pm • link • report

How about planning a light rail rapid transit system (aka Light Metro) for the Georgia Avenue corridor? It has already been noted that a simple streetcar system would need to navigate 60+ intersections from Silver Spring all the way to downtown without its own right-of-way. That would not be smart. It also has been noted that Georgia Avenue isn't wide enough to institute a surface light rail with it's own right-of-way.

Richard Layman has noted that Georgia Avenue ridership potential doesn't warrant a heavy rail line. Ridership probably would fall somewhere in between a streetcar and a heavy rail system. How about the city plan for an underground light rail rapid transit system. It would then have it's own right-of-way, and it could serve as a branch connection to Metro heavy rail. A medium-capacity rail system would be able to serve the present and the future needs of the corridor. DC should also reach out to Montgomery County to do this for connections in Silver Spring and beyond. A medium-capacity underground rail system on Georgia Avenue could have shorter trains (maybe 3 or 4 cars) and would allow for shorter platforms (and smaller cost) than building a new metrorail line. As I travel up and down Georgia Avenue, it seems reasonable to plan for a system that would not be fighting in traffic and that would really encourage denser development along the corridor with the right planning and incentives from the city.

by otavio on Jun 29, 2009 6:22 pm • link • report

Refined version of Dave Murphy original map.

Junction with existing Yellow Line would be in Potomac Park between The Potomac River and The Washington Channel.

Add stations along I Street and or on 2nd Street SW. 2nd Street station would have a transfer connection to Federal Center SW.

On the north end, run line northwest up Eastern Avenue then turn Northeast up Colesville Road to Silver Spring and beyond.

View Refined version of Dave Murphy map in a larger map

by Sand Box John on Jun 30, 2009 11:00 am • link • report

SBJ -- This is very good change, but instead of cutting west from North Capitol where you do it, it needs to go up to Irving so that it can better serve the future development of the south end of the AFRH campus.

by Richard Layman on Jul 2, 2009 12:24 pm • link • report

I worked on a map almost identical to this ten years ago. A couple suggestions:

1. Makes far more sense to follow B&O to Burtonsville Road and go up that to the Beltway, then get on over to Colesville from there via the Beltway to Four Corners. No need for hard rock tunneling under hilly Colesville except for a brief section in Four Corners. The Four Corners metro stop can be under the Blair HS parking lot. This also better integrates with the Purple line which should be Metro anyway. Half of all trains coming down Rt 29 can go to Bethesda and/or Montgomery Mall via a Grosvenor interchange.

2. Go up 1st and 13th street. It's a straight shot, no major road closures, two wide streets with little traffic. and (for the sake of residents of that quiet street) traffic can be interdicted the whole way -- meaning the street closed to thru traffic for the duration and the entire tunnel shield bored instead of massive station pits under Georgia with all its utilities. Big cost savings. The drift shafts could still place all the station entrances near or under Georgia. This also better serves the north end of Columbia Heights (13th and Upshur) and the Bloomingdale / Eckington / LeDroit Park area (a station at 1st between RI and FL ave would be exactly midway between other existing Metro stations, about 3/4 mile from U St, RI Ave, NY Ave stations respectively.)

3. I also worked on the Columbia Pike (VA) metro idea posted elsewhere on-site. A comment on that -- there's already a ready-made junction south of the Pentagon intended for a Columbia Pike line. Only reason it's not being used is lack of political support from Washingtonians for expanding Metro (chiefly because they don't know what they've got or how good they've got it.)

by Brian Robinson on Jan 5, 2011 1:06 pm • link • report