I recently saw a Brad Pitt-narrated doc on PBS that provided a thorough overview of the politics, economics and engineering behind the park project in Seoul. http://www.pbs.org/e2/teachers/teacher_310.html

Did anyone else catch this?

The project reminds me of the sunken parkway/bike path along Speer Blvd and Cherry Creek Dr in Denver, Colorado. What are other examples in the United States?

by Dale Vieregge on Jul 20, 2009 10:27 am • link • report

Washington's sewer system was partially created by enclosing natural creeks and streams in the 1870s. As such, I don't think we want to expose and splash around in any of the city's streams/sewers...

by Adam L on Jul 20, 2009 10:29 am • link • report

Is the argument that people will take Metro to new office space in Vienna really the same as people will take Metro to new office space in Dupont? Vienna isn't exactly the same nexus of many rail and bus lines, and the "transitshed" isn't nearly as extensive and interconnected.

For residential, it's easier to say that a person living there will need fewer commute trips by car on average because of the rail line, but does it work like that for office?

(Hey BeyondDC, what do you know about this?)

by Michael Perkins on Jul 20, 2009 10:32 am • link • report

I've wondered if we couldn't daylight a few streams in the DC area. Tiber Creek is probably a no go, but Doctor's Run might be doable.

by David C on Jul 20, 2009 10:42 am • link • report

When I was growing up, in the 1980s, MADD and the other anti-drunk-driving crusaders certainly made drunk driving one of the most visible issues of the day, roughly at the visibility level that global warming enjoys today. The don't-drink-and-drive message was pounded into us before we could either drive or readily drink. Laws were passed, certainly, but they also made my generation perhaps the first for whom drunk driving is absolutely and universally considered unacceptable behavior.

These days I have little patience for MADD because they're entirely focused on the drinking and not at all on the driving: I think we'd be much better off if drinking was commonplace and driving was reserved for special occasions and to be done only in moderation, instead of the other way around.

Does the anti-phone-while-driving movement need it's own Candice Lightner? It seems a harder pitch to me because it's relatively easy to be a non-drinker and turn into an anti-drinker, but it's become difficult to be a non-cell-phone-user and to be anti-cell-phone is really to be a crank.

Perhaps the solution is to focus on the driving. In addition to providing more transportation options, and making them better, work to keep speeds slow enough so that a pedestrian has a good chance of surviving a collision with a car, by narrowing lanes, introducing texture to the road, adding roundabouts, and other aspects of road diets.

by thm on Jul 20, 2009 10:48 am • link • report

Here's more info about the PBS Cheonggyecheon episode and other great episodes about urbanism: e²: Good Urbanism on TV.

The Cheonggyecheon Restoration Project is a very nice amenity for the city and a huge improvement over the freeway it replaced. But it's a far cry from stream daylighting. It is actually a constructed water feature that is completely isolated from surrounding soils. Its water is drawn from a river seven miles away, where it is filtered and treated, and then moved by giant water pumps to circulate through the Cheonggyecheon.

In the U.S., Strawberry Creek Park is claimed to be the first example of stream daylighting.

As an example of river redevelopment to support intensive recreational and tourism uses, the Museum Reach extension of San Antonio's River Walk is worth study.

by Laurence Aurbach on Jul 20, 2009 11:26 am • link • report

thm, I've read enough studies on the correlative effects of talking while driving as equivalent to drinking that I don't do it. When I'm a passenger i always ask the driver not to do it. And I recite the stats to the young people in my life. I was horrified last summer to ride with my 22 y.o niece while she and her boyfriend texted. Her grandmother (my mom) and I began telling her every time she drove somewhere the dangers of texting and/or talking while driving. At least she doesn't do it with me anymore. I really think its just a matter of public health education like the seatbelt and bike helmet campaigns to change behavior in a majority of people.

I really like this "I think we'd be much better off if drinking was commonplace and driving was reserved for special occasions and to be done only in moderation, instead of the other way around."

by Bianchi on Jul 20, 2009 11:29 am • link • report

When your location is so far from the core and so isolated from other urbanity, no matter how urban it is there are going to be some people who drive there. Whether office or residential would produce more, it's hard to tell. Office could produce more because usually there are more people per square foot in office than residential, but on the other hand office might produce less because someone Metroing out to a job there is less likely to use a car for a bunch of non-commuting trips around Fairfax. One thing we do know – anybody commuting via Metro to an office in Vienna is essentially free for WMATA, since there’s lots of excess capacity in the off-peak direction.

Ultimately it doesnÂ’t really matter, because all of the following are true:

1) Stand-alone TODs deep in the suburbs arenÂ’t as successful at getting people out of their cars as inner city infill.

2) Fairfax is going to continue to grow, like it or not.

3) Better to grow this way.

by BeyondDC on Jul 20, 2009 12:09 pm • link • report

DC already has uncovered streams. Rock Creek Park, Glover Park, and Battery-Kimble Park are all centered on uncovered & forested stream beds. Also, don't forget the tributary parks coming off of Rock Creek Park, such as Klingle Valley.

I think we're doing quite well for one of the larger urban areas in the U.S.

by Daniel on Jul 20, 2009 12:38 pm • link • report

Thanks, BeyondDC. I've often thought about why I end up driving so much even though I live near a Metro station (EFC), at least 6 bus lines (the 3's, the 2's, 24T, ART 53 and 52, and others).

I think it basically boils down to headways and number of options. AFAIK, none of these bus lines travel more frequently than every 30 minutes, except during rush hour when I'm riding the Metro anyway. For someone living nearer the urban core, they have a choice of many more bus and rail lines, and they run more frequently.

by Michael Perkins on Jul 20, 2009 12:39 pm • link • report

I agree that a MADD-style public education campaign could help with talking/texting while driving. Right now many people consider it almost an insult to not answer their call ASAP, no matter what you might be busy doing. We need to reverse this mentality and get the message across that sometimes it's OK to not answer your phone for (gasp!) whole hours at a time.

by Erica on Jul 20, 2009 1:06 pm • link • report

I think we're doing quite well for one of the larger urban areas in the U.S.

DC has some excellent fingers of green into the outer neighborhoods, but they're much wilder and they sit in less dense neighborhoods than the Cheonggyecheon site. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

by цarьchitect on Jul 20, 2009 1:30 pm • link • report

Erica, I've never understood why people becomes slaves to a ringing phone. Isn't the reason for voice mail so that a caller can leave a message when we can't answer?

by Bianchi on Jul 20, 2009 2:12 pm • link • report

Erica, I've never understood why people becomes slaves to a ringing phone. Isn't the reason for voice mail so that a caller can leave a message when we can't answer?

I'm not a fan of driving while celling, but I can understand why people do. You're sitting in traffic most of the time, because traffic is awful. You're bored. You have loads of cell minutes. So you call your friend. Or you talk to them. Never mind that you rear end the car in front of you because it alleviates your boredom.

by ah on Jul 20, 2009 2:48 pm • link • report

Uncover Tiber Creek? Anyone?

by Tim on Jul 20, 2009 4:21 pm • link • report

I have to agree with ah on this one. After college, when I was living in the Minneapolis suburbs with my parents and interning and working downtown, I would generally have a 30 minute driving commute each way which always felt like "wasted" time. Thus, I would fill the time with something "productive," like calling my grandparents or talking to friends who had moved away after college. (Never texting, however. When talking on the phone, I at least had my eyes on the road...)

Fortunately, since moving to D.C., I've been able to live in walkable locations, so now a 30 minute walking commute doesn't seem "unproductive" because I'm engaged in what's going on around me and getting exercise at the same time!

by David T on Jul 20, 2009 4:59 pm • link • report

DC has some excellent fingers of green into the outer neighborhoods, but they're much wilder and they sit in less dense neighborhoods than the Cheonggyecheon site.

Sure. But I don't think there's any neighbourhoods in DC as dense as those Cheonggyecheon passes through -- DC is a small city, and Seoul is the second largest metropolitan area in the world, after Tokyo. Unlike Tokyo, it's also full of highrises.

As a side note, Cheonggyecheon is tiny -- it's like a shallower, more modern cousin of the Canal in Georgetown. Indeed, kind of like the Canal, at least in the parts I've walked (near Myeongdong), the stream is actually separated from the streets and sidewalks above, and you have to walk down a stairway to get to the stream -- the sidewalks and streets cross on bridges overhead. I think there are parts where it widens out considerably, but most of its length is running through an extremely high-density area, so I don't think my little stroll was all that unusual, as far as the experience of Cheonggyecheon goes.

by Taeyoung on Jul 20, 2009 5:11 pm • link • report

I'm not entirely sure where Tiber creek runs now, but I heard it ran under all the buildings on the north side of Constitution and then under North Capitol. So daylighting it would not be easy, but I'd like to learn more. Hickey Run (or Branch) could be. And so could parts of Piney Branch, Murdoch Mill Creek, the north part of Long Branch, Foundry Branch - which runs through a culvert in a park, more of Watts Branch, etc...

by David C on Jul 20, 2009 5:37 pm • link • report

I do not think daylighting buried waterways is worth pursuing in DC.

DC is already extremely green, and efforts to unearth more streams, however tantalizing, would be expensive and misguided. In all likelyhood, it would also conflict with smart growth's goal of increasing density near public transportation.

If anything, I would come down on the side of shrinking or trimming some of the existing stream parks. This is especially true in the upper reaches, where they are difficult to access and serve relatively few people. Of course pigs will fly before that happens...

by Daniel on Jul 20, 2009 6:37 pm • link • report

Unlike Tokyo, it's also full of highrises.

Actually, Tokyo (and its immediate suburban area) is very much full of highrises -- more than Seoul and its suburbs.

by wmata on Jul 20, 2009 8:33 pm • link • report

I may not make daylighting a high priority, something done with other developments maybe, but I wouldn't say we have too many stream parks - especially considering the state of the Potomac, Chesapeake and DC tree canopy.

by David C on Jul 20, 2009 9:21 pm • link • report

i believe my home town of Providence, RI beat Seoul in this whole river uncovering thing. I seem to remember some people from seoul coming to take a look when they were first thinking about doing this.

http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=86

by Kevin H on Jul 20, 2009 10:39 pm • link • report