About the Takoma living situation's name... it sounds closer to cohousing than a conventional Co-op. Cohousing is pretty cool, although many of the implementations have turned their backs on the city as a whole.

by цarьchitect on Jul 21, 2009 5:28 pm  

Rotaries really vary in their utility. Atlanta and the nearby town of Decatur added them in few places before I left and they seemed to bring new hazards rather than solve existing ones. For one thing they were small and save for a few people with DC or New England history no one new how to use them. they were used to quiet streets that frankly didn't much change. In the Candler Park/ Lake Claire area they were part of a reshaping of the street that created undersized parking cutouts and ultimately added nothing to the walkability of the areas affected.

The kind of large rotaries one finds in say, Ireland, or even parts of suburban Boston work fine, but are hell on pedestrians. There are a few other cities outside the East Coast with rotaries. Cleveland and its Eastern suburbs have a few with and without lights. One which has always been dangerous and confusing (despite decades of being in place) is about to get the heave ho.

by Rich on Jul 21, 2009 5:30 pm  

The gas/obesity study is an interesting relationship, but I'm not sure it addresses causation. One could also posit a relationship that in states with more obesity there is a greater demand for affordable driving and therefore political opposition to higher gas taxes Doesn't mean raising the gas taxes in the state will cure the obesity problem.

by ah on Jul 21, 2009 5:42 pm  

Rich: big differences between rotaries and roundabouts. Rotaries (also called traffic circles) are larger in diameter, and don't have a set right-of-way rule (often, ROW goes to those entering the circle), or they have traffic signals controlling them (Dupont Circle being a classic example of that).

Roundabouts are much smaller in diameter, rarely more than 2 lanes wide, and are often used for traffic calming. Also, with roundabouts, right of way always goes to traffic already in the circle.

Regarding that gas tax/obesity study, although the concept of higher gas prices = less driving = more people walking/biking/using transit is plausible, it fails to take other causations into account (as ah notes). An example of the flawed logic: one of the states with a lower-than-average (until last year) state gas tax also happens to be one of the healthiest states in the country.

by Froggie on Jul 21, 2009 6:29 pm  

The photo is of Drachten, Holland, not Germany...

by NikolasM on Jul 21, 2009 6:42 pm  

The roundabout/rotary distinction is a recent US distinction (at least that's what Wikipedia says) and in common parlance there isn't a distinction. And that's probably because all rotaries started off as roundabouts (or 'traffic circles' as we used to call them here in the US) and adding traffic lights to them is just viewed as, well, 'adding lights to a traffic circle' for most of us. Personally, I think adding traffic lights to a traffic circle defeats the purpose of the traffic circle which is to keep traffic flowing. For example, whenever I am driving I do my best to avoid driving around Dupont Circle because all the lights there make it an ordeal. I instead divert around to other streets. Ideally, the circle there should be doing its job and making it faster for me to drive around it than to take the other side streets. Putting traffic lights in a traffic circle is analogous to putting traffic lights on the beltway ... It defeats the very purpose of the traffic circle.

by Lance on Jul 21, 2009 9:40 pm  

Obesity study is interesting. Health benefits of walking are well-known, and if you live someplace like Houston, Atlanta, or Phoenix, only place you might ever walk more than few steps is the mall.

I used to work at Rosslyn, and lost a good 10 lbs. walking up the stairway to heaven metro escalator every morning.

by David G on Jul 21, 2009 11:50 pm  

So the premise is that removing the lights around Dupont would improve traffic flow? I'd like to see this put into operation. Given the me-first nature of most drivers/pedestrians, I really don't see anyone yielding.

What do bicyclists think of removing the lights from traffic circles? I would think it would make their job even harder.

by monkeyrotica on Jul 22, 2009 7:30 am  

I agree with monkeyrotica. While traffic circles might be a better solution in non pedestrian areas like in Great Britain where two country roads intersect, in a congested area like DuPont Circle, the pedestrian ought to take precident. Getting cars passing through to avoid DuPont circle is a positive. Imagine the Arc De Triomph in Paris with traffic lights?

by Thayer-D on Jul 22, 2009 7:39 am  

The me first, drive as fast as possible attitude of most US drivers kills traffic circles. Combine that with the (well deserved) timidity of a lot of other drivers and traffic circles are a nightmare. Look at the circle at Memorial Bridge and Chevy Chase circle. Folks coming off the main roads either stop or blast through at 40 mph. If everyone simply slowed down, was courteous and merged properly it would flow amazingly well.

by Boots on Jul 22, 2009 8:27 am  

The main problem with Dupont Circle is that there is almost no way to avoid it. Due to all the one-way streets in the vicinity, any driver within a five-block radius will eventually find herself dumped into the circle (especially confused out-of-towners). I don't know if this was a deliberate design choice or an unplanned outcome, but it's more a traffic collector/magnet than a simple roundabout.

by Erica on Jul 22, 2009 8:29 am  

What do you make of Councilmember Wells' suggestion of a higher gas tax for DC? The argument is that DC should be on par with MD and VA. It's been floated as a revenue option to help with the $660 million shortfall.

by JoPo on Jul 22, 2009 9:38 am  

That roundabout in the photo looks like it eats pedestrians for breakfast.

I think the attraction to them is misguided.

by Jazzy on Jul 22, 2009 10:02 am  

I'm in strong approval of raising the gas tax. Gasoline consumption is highly inelastic in the short term, meaning that the tax can be raised without people cutting back on their consumption.

In the long term, people do cut back. That's bad if you're using the gas tax as the funding source for anything in particular (like the highway fund).

Additionally, gasoline in and of itself is bad for the local and global environment. Its production, transport and consumption all involve costs that aren't borne by the people producing, transporting or using it.

These costs mean that by purchasing a gallon of gas, I get all the benefits of using it but without all the costs. That's inefficient for society.

The problem for DC is leakage across borders. If DC imposes a 50 cent per gallon tax, it's likely that people would smuggle gasoline across the borders in their gas tanks (by preferentially filling up just outside DC). Not everyone will do this, but it's an effect to consider.

It's probably time for all the local jurisdictions to raise the gas tax by ten cents. On Infosnack I proposed that whenever the gas prices go down, that the gas tax go up by 10% of the decline. So last year when the price was $4.00 per gallon and went down to $2.00, the tax would go up at the same time to counteract the decline, increasing by 20 cents per gallon. It's painful to increase the tax when the price is already going up, but it's likely easier when prices are falling.

by Michael Perkins on Jul 22, 2009 10:13 am  

Jazzy, the roundabout is in a shared space street. The appeal of roundabouts is that they necessitate communication between drivers. Since people actually have to slow down and pay attention, they actually make roads safer for pedestrians.

by цarьchitect on Jul 22, 2009 10:31 am  

There are youtube videos of Hans Monderman driving around Drachten with some people discussing the roundabouts and the videos show complete shared use of the spaces between pedestrians, cyclists and cars.

by NikolasM on Jul 22, 2009 10:40 am  

Michael P., that's a good observation you make about 'leakage'. I haven't bought a gallon of gas in DC in years. It makes no sense to when it's so much cheaper in Va. Tommy Wells doesn't impress me with his understanding of even basic economics. He reminds me of the kind of guys that got the District in trouble back in the 70s/80s to begin with. Little real thought goes into his proposals.

by Lance on Jul 22, 2009 10:46 am  

Regarding the Food Stamps, I was at Eastern Market and someone asked a farmer if they accept food stamps. The farmer said yes! Does DC have the same expensive machine problem? Or does Eastern Market provide this service to its vendors?

Its vitally important for all people to have access to good healthy food, and it seems DC may have this set up. Does anyone have any more info?

by Erik on Jul 22, 2009 10:57 am  

If DC imposes a 50 cent per gallon tax, it's likely that people would smuggle gasoline across the borders in their gas tanks (by preferentially filling up just outside DC). Not everyone will do this, but it's an effect to consider.

Um, this is EXACTLY what happened in Barry's first term as Mayor. The Council passed a .25 tax on DC service stations. Many went out of business, EVERY DC driver ended up buying their gas in MD/VA. So not only is Wells ignorant about economics, he doesn't even know basic DC history.

by monkeyrotica on Jul 22, 2009 11:29 am  

if they put roundabouts in DC, this blog would start complaining that there was no pedestrian paths to the center of the circle--which would be followed by some crosswalks and lights--which would be followed by the traffic clusterF that is Dupont circle.

by beatbox on Jul 22, 2009 11:33 am  

Exactly beatbox. Or worse yet - Thomas Circle. That is a traffic circle, literally from hell. I think it's the hottest place in the District.

by Jazzy on Jul 22, 2009 11:39 am  

What did Tommy Wells actually propose? According to his tweet he was looking for a regional tax. That's much less likely to be circumvented.

by Michael Perkins on Jul 22, 2009 11:48 am  

In the past several years they've put in a bunch of roundabouts in the residential sections of Clarendon and Lyon Park in Arlington. They work pretty well in an area of relatively low traffic and few pedestrians - keeps things moving without traffic lights or stop signs. The one thing I don't like about them is that you can't make a left hand turn, instead having to drive 270 degrees around the roundabout rather than just being able to make a left as in a normal intersection.

There's been a lot of discussion on various blogs about a difference between traffic circles and roundabouts being that circles give ROW to those entering and roundabouts give ROW to those already in the circle. DC law specifically says that unless signs are otherwise posted, that traffic entering a circle ALWAYS has to give ROW to those already in the circle - so I guess we have roundabouts here (Westmoreland Circle being a great example).

It's also worth noting that we have circles here in DC for city design purposes rather than to control traffic - so I'm not really sure how much of the traffic circles vs roundabouts discussion is appropriate to the unique case of DC anyway.

by andy on Jul 22, 2009 11:54 am  

@ Roundabouts: Roundabouts are wonderful! Aside from the advantages mentioned elsewhere, they are perfect for places where traffic is variable, i.e. sometimes a lot from one street, sometimes more from another. They are mostly handy in suburban settings. May 4-way stops would be safer as roundabouts. Many intersections with lights too.

As for safety, bikers and pedestrians have the right of way when crossing road. Remember, you have to yield to all traffic in the circle. That includes bikers and pedestrians. It is something that car drivers need to be reminder of, but a couple of tickets usually help.

Personally, I love roundabouts because they make traffic quieter, and beautify neighborhoods. The center is a perfect place to put a piece of art, or simply some nice flowering bushes. Way prettier than traffic lights.

Last, traffic circles reduce road rage, because you never have to wait for an empty road.

@ Gas tax: Gas taxes are the only way to go if you want to put an incentive on fuel efficient cars and drive people to transit.

by Jasper on Jul 22, 2009 12:16 pm  

Roundabouts

They are mostly handy in suburban settings.
They work pretty well in an area of relatively low traffic and few pedestrians

Why are we talking about this then for the city?

by Jazzy on Jul 22, 2009 12:25 pm  

I'm curious, there's produce at every grocery store even the mom-and-pops, most accept food stamps why the need to have farmer's markets accept food stamps? Weren't food stamp users able to get "healthy, fresh produce" from the grocery store?

by Steve on Jul 22, 2009 12:28 pm  

Jazzy et al:

Here is the start of a ten part interview with the late Hans Monderman cruising around Drachten.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo3KWHqmDhA&feature=related

Well worth the time.

by NikolasM on Jul 22, 2009 12:34 pm  

Jazzy, because there are plenty of intersections of cities that don't get so many cars they can't handle a roundabout. Furthermore, roundabouts can handle plenty of pedestrians, as long as pedestrians are given priority. The biggest problem with the Dupont Circle fubar nexus is that pedestrians are treated like an afterthought.

by цarьchitect on Jul 22, 2009 12:38 pm  

Show me one roundabout/traffic circle where the center is a destination that works well for pedestrians and traffic.

I don't even own a car, but I think a lot of the blame for Dupont has to go on pedestrians who ignore the crosswalk signals.

by beatbox on Jul 22, 2009 1:19 pm  

Thanks.

But I think this is just another example of a supposed improvement that has not been thought through, not enough questions are being asked about it, and the evidence we have that they don't work or at least are extremely pedestrian unfriendly is staring us in the face, and advocates are doing their best to ignore it.

Etc etc etc

by Jazzy on Jul 22, 2009 1:20 pm  

Weren't food stamp users able to get "healthy, fresh produce" from the grocery store?

This is as much about supporting the farmers at the markets as it is about supporting food stamp users. Farmers were cut off from accessing a lot of potential customers when the switch was made to debit cards.

Plus, having a visible farmers market in the neighborhood that is fun for kids to go to (with no junk food to distract them) sets a great example for lifelong healthy eating.

by Erica on Jul 22, 2009 1:25 pm  

@ Jazzy: The Australians, the French and many other Europeans have thought it through, made changes, and reduced traffic incidents. What more proof do you want?

@ beatbox: The point of a roundabout is not to have a destination in the middle. In fact, few do.

I don't know how to make Dupont Circle better. I do know that it took me about 6-7 years of living in DC before I figured out how to navigate Dupont Circle (by car and on foot) without causing havoc. Everybdoy knows people who refuse to go there, especially by car. That says something about the place.

by Jasper on Jul 22, 2009 1:30 pm  

Jazzy, agreed. The caveat is that I've seen a few nice traffic circles/roundabouts. Far from traffic calming, they keep things moving. I just have never seen one that works well with pedestrians. The thought of removing traffic lights and making Dupont PedXing right of way is silly. Even IF you gave pedxing right of way, and didn't snarl traffic, it would still be a nightmare because when entering a circle, drivers naturally crane their heads to the left to spot a place to enter-and gun the engine when they get a spot. Pity the poor pedestrian who is crossing then.

I don't think this idea will go anywhere in DC.

by beatbox on Jul 22, 2009 1:31 pm  

Beatbox, I certainly hope not. with all due respect to all the advocates, this just seems like another idea that is meant to be a quick fix and, yes, has not been thought through.

What more do I want Jasper? I want you and DC residents to be asking questions. In some respects, it matters how it went in Europe, but in other respects, we got to focus on us here. WE ARE THE ONES who should be asking the questions. We shouldn't let others do our thinking for us. That's what I want.

by Jazzy on Jul 22, 2009 1:36 pm  

Jasper: Totally agree about roundabouts w/o a destination in the center working well. The trend in DC, however, is to make use of the center spaces. I am not advocating one way or another, just pointing out that they don't mix well.

by beatbox on Jul 22, 2009 1:43 pm  

"What did Tommy Wells actually propose? According to his tweet he was looking for a regional tax. That's much less likely to be circumvented."
by Michael Perkins

Ah ... central planning now! Bureaucrats always know what is best fot others. Not. Thank God we have a system in place here where people have a choice. If his idea was such a good one, he wouldn't have to look to force it on other jurisdictions as well. They would do it by choice. Obviously it's not. It' people like him that scare me ... People who think they know what is best for everyone else.

Actually, I have a funny story to tell about him. Recently I was presenting some awards at an awards ceremony and a couple groups from his ward were recipients of these awards. When they were called to come up and receive their awards he ran up with them ... to accept the awards with them ... both times. Never mind he wasn't part of these groups receiving the awards ... and hadn't been invited up. I thought it quite revealing that this politician was being sure to take credit for something which he hadn't accomplished.

by Lance on Jul 22, 2009 2:12 pm  

I'm curious, there's produce at every grocery store even the mom-and-pops, most accept food stamps why the need to have farmer's markets accept food stamps? Weren't food stamp users able to get "healthy, fresh produce" from the grocery store?"
by Steve

Not to mention that these farmers markets are usually quite expensive. I myself rarely do more than window-shop ... and occasionally splurge by buying some of their tastier-than-store-bought tomatoes. But by and large I realize that this is expensive stuff and not in my budget. I don't think our ensuring that food stamp recipients can buy these luxury items should be high on our agenda. After all, if they're smart buyers they'll realize ... like the rest of us ... that your dollars will go a lot farther at the supermarket. And we as the taxpayers providing those dollars should be especially concerned about these dollars being unwisely spent.

by Lance on Jul 22, 2009 2:21 pm  

@ Jazzy: it matters how it went in Europe, but in other respects, we got to focus on us here. WE ARE THE ONES who should be asking the questions.

What should we be asking questions about?

We shouldn't let others do our thinking for us.

You wanna keep inventing the wheel?

@ beatbox: I am not sure a place like Dupont Circle is the ideal place for a roundabout. The place is a disaster nevertheless. As I said before, I think they'd be more in place replacing a lot of 4-way stops and traffic lights in the 'burbs, who are part of the GGW area, I might add.

by Jasper on Jul 22, 2009 2:40 pm  

>Bureaucrats always know what is best fot others. Not.

Well, no they don't always know what's best, but the clusterf*** that are the DC suburbs are a telling example of why planning is absolutely necessary.

Look, if you are a business owner who wants a loan, you are going to have to show them a bussiness PLAN. Allowing cities to develop higgledy-piggledy is a colossal failure. Lack of urban planning has proved hugely costly for America.

by MichaelA on Jul 23, 2009 12:00 pm  

@ MichaelA: It will only improve if you elect competent politicians.

by Jasper on Jul 23, 2009 12:20 pm