On a somewhat related note, some of the earlier VDOT highway maps show a "Toll Ferry" heading north from Hampton Roads. The earlier maps, up through 1952, show it leaving from Old Point Comfort (today's Fort Monroe in Hampton) and heading to Baltimore (no mention of DC). The 1955-59 maps also show it leaving Old Point Comfort and going to both Baltimore and Washington. Then the 1961 and 1962 maps show a "Toll Ferry" leaving from near downtown Norfolk going to Baltimore. No more ferrys are shown starting with the 1964 map.

by Froggie on Aug 25, 2009 6:54 pm • link • report

I always thought that regional waterways are sorely underutilized, both for commercial and recreational transit. I'd much rather take a nice boat ride to Ocean City or Baltimore or Cape May than have to deal with the Jersey Turnpike and 95. And didn't they used to have an English Channel hovercraft that could do the crossing in about 20 minutes?

by monkeyrotica on Aug 26, 2009 9:29 am • link • report

monkeyerotica

I agree with you totally

DC was located here because the port was the farthest inland waterway closest to the Ohio River and points west- the water was how people got around before trains and cars and planes.

Our area ignores the possibility of water based commerce and the cars, freeways and airport craze did this industry in. Prior to the 1960's there was quite a bit going on here- ocean going ships, ferries, huge naval vessels, etc.
We need to bring it back.

To me- having a few marinas for wealthy yacht lovers and that kind of thing is no real waterfront- it is a letdown.

If the Europeans can utilize their rivers- which are shallower than the Potomac- we can also.
I saw busy barge traffic on the Rhine a few months back. The Potomac is a bigger river and could also have this kind of enterprise.

by w on Aug 26, 2009 1:05 pm • link • report

I saw busy barge traffic on the Rhine a few months back. The Potomac is a bigger river and could also have this kind of enterprise.

For what purposes!?!?!?! To carry detritus form all of those churning factories on Connecticut Ave? DC is a government town, and government is its industry. Why on earth would you need ships which serve heavy industry when there isn't any for miles around?!?

Think, people!!

by MPC on Aug 26, 2009 1:20 pm • link • report

Barge traffic isn't dead in the US, it's quite alive actually. But it's alive on rivers that make sense for hauling stuff, like the Mississippi, the Ohio, and the Missouri. The Potomac is navigable for such a short distance that you'd have to transfer your cargo to rails or trucks eventually, and if that's the case you might as well just go to Baltimore or Norfolk.

Barge traffic in the US is for bulk cargo that has no time pressure. There's no market whatsoever for that to happen on the short stretch of the Potomac that's navigable from Great Falls to the Bay.

For monkey's idea of passenger transit, I'm intrigued, but given the path you'd have to take to get out of the Potomac and into the Chesapeake, Norfolk is about the only destination that would make sense in my mind.

by Alex B. on Aug 26, 2009 1:29 pm • link • report

Some people have even less imagination than did Robert Moses or Edmund Bacon.

OK.

Let's keep everything as boring as possible in DC.

by w on Aug 26, 2009 2:00 pm • link • report

Sorry, w.

That ship has sailed, both literally and figuratively.

If the economics of water-based freight transport made sense, people would be arguing for it.

by Alex B. on Aug 26, 2009 2:17 pm • link • report

Water-based freight transport does make sense in the right location. Look at the Mississippi, Ohio, and Arkansas Rivers, among others. It's just that the potomac doesn't go enough of anywhere to make it worth it, especially considering that one can go to Baltimore and use a giant port there and then put stuff on rail.

by ah on Aug 26, 2009 2:48 pm • link • report

the Potomac DOES go somewhere
To DC

and what you folks do not get
is that it WAS a busy place until the advent of massive freeways and airports

We had a fishing fleet here and a real live & very active navy yard

Al Gore senior put in a monster ugly bridge so he could commute by car from his Virgina suburb and cut off Georgetown from water access by large water vehicles.

And yes- there are others out there working to get us port authority for DC.

with the peak oil prospect making other forms of transportation viable, and a move away from air & car transport we might just see our local waterways bloom again- despite the outright cynicism I am reading from these
obviously
transplant / temp commentators who have no concept of the history of this city or region

by w on Aug 26, 2009 3:25 pm • link • report

"Our area ignores the possibility of water based commerce and the cars, freeways and airport craze did this industry in. Prior to the 1960's there was quite a bit going on here- ocean going ships, ferries, huge naval vessels, etc.
We need to bring it back."

hmmm ... w ... the river's still there ... and I believe open for use by any and all of the types of vessels you mention which may wish to use it. The problem is they don't wish to use it. And as Alex and MPC both point out, perhaps it's because there aren't any needs for the river to be used in the manner you envision for it. That can be the problem with planning which isn't based on expressed and confirmed desires. We have a great highway system in this country because government responded to an expressed need AND the people confirmed it was the way to go by making their own investment in that transportation mode ... i.e., bought cars, bought car insurance, built houses with garages to house the cars, paid for the gas, and paid for the taxes on the gas that then went to repay the costs of the road construction. We don't have great mass transit/transport in most parts of this country because we never got to the second part ... 'the people' never 'confirmed' they wanted this by (1) wanting it in numbers large enough (and with fares suffiect) to (2) make it self perpetuating and self funding. For example, a great many years ago the government took over all the failing railroads and built Amtrak ... but the taxpayer is still subsidizing it ... Even with fares that aren't really cheaper than competitive transportation modes ... Ditto many of our urban bus systems. Having a vision for the future is great ... but only 'really great' if it is based on more than one's own needs and desires. It's gotta be able to sustain itself long term.

by Lance on Aug 26, 2009 3:34 pm • link • report

w ... reading your latest post, I want to add another thought to my last post ...

All those things the river use to do for DC were done before the highways and the airports provided alternative ways of doing those things. And they provided them for cheaper. DC isn't the only city that lost all its shipping traffic. No matter how powerful a senator Gore may have been, if there had been a need for the river for large vessels, that low bridge would not have gotten built. But there wasn't anymore a need for it for large vessels.

by Lance on Aug 26, 2009 3:42 pm • link • report

I'm perfectly happy not having to breathe the pollution coming from the bunker fuel burned by large oceangoing vessels.

by ah on Aug 26, 2009 3:55 pm • link • report

Although I do not agree with everything you said, Lance, you are a thoughtful and coherent writer.

AH

you would be totally shocked if you only knew how much jet airplanes pollute- how much particulate matter they put out.
It makes cars and trucks seem like puffs in the wind by comparison.

by w on Aug 26, 2009 4:24 pm • link • report

I'm aware on airplanes. But we're not using them for freight the way we do ships, trains, and trucks. And the pollution is elsewhere, which I realize isn't an answer other than to the question "Would having large ships come into the port of Washington/Alexandria/Anacostia enhance our lives?"

by ah on Aug 26, 2009 5:23 pm • link • report

w....please enlighten us how you would use your barges, keeping in mind that the rest of us don't want to pay more for good and services just so that the Potomac River can be used in the manner of your particular vision.

by MPC on Aug 26, 2009 6:22 pm • link • report

DC all but banished the last vestiges of commercial use by closing Florida Rock. They used to get deliveries of aggregates by barge. The rest of our waterfront is not a working waterfront, it's mostly parkland and recreational boating now. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it was a conscious choice to banish the industrial waterfront.

Just about the only commercial shipping left on the river is the delivery of newsprint to the Robinson Terminal in Alexandria. Alexandria's port used to be very active, but when it was a railhead and transshipment point on the Southern Railway via the tunnel at Wilkes Street, in addition to the torpedo factory (when it was a real torpedo factory) and the Ford plant.

by Paul on Aug 27, 2009 6:56 am • link • report

I'm not advocating any massive industrial use of the river. The factories that used to be in Foggy Bottom where the Kennedy Center is now were notorious for the stink and pollution they generated. I'm saying that this DC's economy is heavily dependent on tourism and that a greater water access would expand that source of revenue. There's also the residents of DC themselves who might like the option of taking a boat to Annapolis or Southern Maryland or the Virginia Shore. All this helps regional tourism coffers. If you check old turn of the century DC tour guides, you'll see there was a tour boat that went from DC to Mount Vernon, along with an electric trolly line.

You've also got the ongoing waterfront revitalization that seems focused on residential development and being able to walk/bike from SE to Georgetown. How about some more water transit options besides the Dandy's three-hour-tour? Then there's the water taxis from Old Town and National Harbor and Quantico that are coming online. If those are successful, they might pave the way for more and longer river trips.

by monkeyrotica on Aug 27, 2009 9:29 am • link • report

Monkey, I completely agree. DC turns its back on the waterfront.

However, I think a great deal of the reason the city doesn't embrace the waterfront is that most of that waterfront was never used for industrial purposes (and likely never will be). Passenger use and port/industrial use are very different things. W seems to be advocating for port uses when there's virtually no economic reason to do so.

I'm curious to see how the dock at Nationals Park works for water taxi service.

by Alex B. on Aug 27, 2009 9:35 am • link • report

Are there actually people in this thread advocating that DC attempt to revivie a manufacturing ecomomy! Lunacy!

You do realize that DC has largely weathered this recession because it DOES NOT rely on manufacturing, or shipping, or any other type of heavy industry. Give me an office building with 3,000 professionals making over 100k per year (and paying taxes, and buying things, etc) plus another 1,000 or so support workers making less, but getting health benefits and stable jobs, over a factory that employs a few hundred, can't compete with factories overseas, and that will likely have to cut operations or close in this economy. Ask the mayors of Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, etc if they would trade their economies for what we have in DC...they might even throw in free rusted out ship to make you happy.

You want barge traffic? Drive up to the Susquehanna River in Maryland and you will see barge traffic. You want big ocean-going ships (which never served DC and never could for hundreds of reasons), take the MARC to Baltimore and take a cab to the harbor. You want big Navy ships (which the Washington Navy Yard never accomodated by the way) take a scenic drive south to the Hampton Roads area.

One more thing. Next time you buy produce, ask yourself this. Would you pay more for that head of lettuce just so you could have a nice ship to look at? Or do you like reasonable prices and fresh products shipped by rail and air?

This is a city, with real people livining it. Not an amusement park for a few people that want to look at ships and gawk at steveadores on the waterfront.

by metronic on Aug 27, 2009 11:36 am • link • report

@ metronic

thank you. unfortunately, some people cannot appreciate my forms of rhetoric and dismiss it as trolling, but you summed up my earlier points quite well.

by MPC on Aug 27, 2009 11:50 am • link • report

This is a lot like burying the lede in a thread about steamships, but here goes. While DC will never have a large and thriving industrial "smokestack" economy, I find myself objecting to metronic's narrow vision of the city as an office-based professional monoculture that supports only the needs of the administrative State. For one thing, what about those with neither the appropriate skills nor, more importantly, the aptitude to sit in an office all day? Are they doomed to crappy service jobs slinging burgers or waiting tables for a living? Should they buy a one-way ticket to Baltimore in search of meaningful, remunerative work? Wouldn't it enrich our civic life to keep people like that around?

One of the best books I've read lately is Matthew Crawford's "Shop Class as Soulcraft." Crawford argues the divorce of most people from the world of "stuff" is stultifying and cuts too many creative people off from rewarding and meaningful work in what are loosely called the "trades". Crawford, who holds a PhD, left a job as a DC think-tank wordsmith to open a business repairing vintage motorcycles. Those are the kinds of businesses that are becoming all but extinct in DC. These businesses are ruled out de jure (take a look at the Zoning Code to see the dizzying array of non-grandfathered businesses can locate only at the sufferance of the BZA) or de facto because of higher rents and redevelopment.

I think it's not for the good to have a city and a political class of lawyers, technocrats and their support structure that deals only in abstractions, especially when that class is extending its power over every conceivable arena of economic activity. The limited appeal of abstractions to many people is Crawford's basic point, and he makes some connections to politics as well.

by Paul on Aug 27, 2009 3:26 pm • link • report

That's fair, Paul - I agree with everything you wrote.

However, w is implying that DC needs more barge traffic. So long as there are motorcycles, there will be a need for motorcycle repair. I, for one, which DC had more industrial space - a good ol' warehouse district, etc.

Encouraging barge traffic on the Potomac, however, is not exactly like opening up a motorcycle repair shop...

by Alex B. on Aug 27, 2009 3:42 pm • link • report

Paul, I disagree with everything you wrote.

I fail to see how low-skilled and low-paid workers add anything to "civic life" of Washington, DC. Who is going to pay the taxes to give us great schools? Who is going to support the arts? Who is going to support new restaurants and shops? Who is going to pay for the public benefits these workers often need to live?

Ask yourself this, where would you rather live. DC or Dundalk? DC or Capitol Heights? Better yet, ask the people who live in Dundalk and Capitol Heights what they feel is missing from their communities. They will tell you good schools, a decent place to eat, some cultural activities, maybe some clean parks. The sort of things they don't get to have because they can't afford to support them.

As for that tradesman who has to go to Baltimore to ply his trade along the waterfront. How is that any different from the policy analyst who grows up in Scottsbluff Nebraska and finds he has to move to DC to ply his trade? Or the child who grew up wanting nothing more then to be a blackjack dealer (a friend of mine) who found he had to move to either Atlantic City, Las Vegas, or Reno to make a decent living at his chosen trade?

If you want to work on an active waterfront, don't move to a city like DC. If you want to be a lawyer engaged in lobbying federal policy, don't move to Sault Ste. Marie Michigan. You tell me which city is better. Trust me, it aint the Soo.

You talk about soul. Have you ever spent time on a factory floor? Have you ever visited a bar in Wayne County Michigan when a factory shift lets out. You will see people beaten down by repetive work. No soul, no grand illusions of finding one's zen repairing motorcycles, just people who more then likely hate their jobs and are counting the days until they can get out.

Finally, skilled tradesmen like the boutique motorcycle builder, or the antique furniture restorer, or the plumber, will always have a place in every city. But dockwork and factory floor work aren't skilled trades. They are unskilled labor that can, and should be performed by the lowest bidders so that people with skills and money can buy things at lower prices.

That is the reality of the world.

by metronic on Aug 27, 2009 5:36 pm • link • report

It's not like the river is dead for commercial traffic. Don't local cruise ships use Alexandria as a base and larger ones depart Alexandria for the Carribean?
It seems to me the Anacostia project might accommodate something parallel.

by Mark on Aug 28, 2009 11:32 am • link • report