Air
Infrequent airport buses offer a lackluster welcome
There are a variety of ways to get to Washington's 3 airports. By far the most convenient way from downtown is to take Metro to nearby National Airport. But Metro does not make it out to Dulles or BWI International Airports.
Photo by M. V. Jantzen.
Passengers arriving on international flights face a lengthy ride into Washington from either airport, but the length itself is not the only impediment for people to take transit to or from Dulles and BWI. Bus capacity and frequency are both major issues facing airport-bound passengers. While other major cities, both domestically and abroad, link their international air gateways to the city by bus, few make passengers wait as long between buses or leave them wondering how they're going to fit aboard.
The B30 links Greenbelt Station with BWI Airport. It runs approximately every 40 minutes every day of the week, including Saturday and Sunday. During the work week, there are four additional trips, due to the fact that Metro opens earlier. The bus leaves Greenbelt for BWI 25 times Monday through Friday and 21 times on Saturday and Sunday. It takes about 30 minutes to reach the airport.
Dulles is connected by the 5A, which runs from L'Enfant Plaza to Rosslyn and then on to Dulles Airport, making a few stops in the corridor. Trips during the week have an average headway of just under 40 minutes, with buses coming every 60 minutes on weekends. Each working day sees 30 trips to and from the airport in each direction, while only 18 are made on Saturdays and Sundays. The 5A can take over an hour to get from Dulles to L'Enfant Plaza.
As we are all aware, each bus has a finite capacity. According to WMATA, the average capacity for a 40-foot bus (pictured above) is 41 seats with a total of 71 passengers. Metro also operates 60-foot, articulated buses. These have a seating capacity of 57 and an overall capacity of 91. Of course, those numbers are typical for commuters, who don't regularly carry bags and suitcases. Bus capacity can also be limited by the experience level of riders. Novice riders don't always move back, and sometimes sit on the aisle seat, leaving a vacant or bag-filled seat by the window. And some buses serving the airports have luggage racks, which further limit seating capacity.
Suffice it to say that the buses serving Dulles and BWI have a capacity that is at least a little lower than the normal averages.
But let's assume that each bus could carry the maximum number of people. Even with that stipulation, the airport bus lines have a surprisingly low capacity.
To put those numbers in perspective, one railcar can carry about 70 seated passengers or 175 seated and standing passengers when full. That means that an 8-car train can carry about 1,400 people. One full 8-car train can has a higher capacity than all the 5A buses, combined, running from Washington to Dulles Airport on a Saturday or Sunday, if they're all 40-footers. Two 8-car trains would be more than enough to carry all of the weekday buses, even if they were all 60-footers.
During the holiday seasons, around Thanksgiving and Christmas, WMATA operates extra buses on both lines. This helps to ensure that someone doesn't have to wait 40 minutes on the next bus if they can't fit aboard the first one. But just last week, I saw airport-bound travelers left at Greenbelt because the B30 filled up before they could get on. Even with supplemental buses, passengers fret. After Thanksgiving, when my flight arrived at BWI, I hurried over to the stop outside Concourse E. The first bus, a 40-footer, came and filled up. Less than half of the people at the stop made it. The bus driver announced that an extra bus was "just behind her," and 10 minutes later, a 60-foot articulated bus arrived. Everyone did manage to climb aboard, but there was only room for about 5 or 6 more patrons.
For passengers arriving in our nation's capital for the first time, whether from Paris or Kansas City, the long bus rides are made torturous by overcrowding and long wait times.
In Berlin, on the other hand, the TXL JetExpress bus runs every 10 minutes weekdays and every 20 minutes on weekends. It connects Tegel Airport to the city center in under 40 minutes, and reaches its first rail connection within 10 minutes of leaving the airport.
In the face of today's budget crisis, however, it seems unlikely that Metro will be expanding service anytime soon. But WMATA needs to find ways to improve the headway of the lines. The 5A's running distance could be shortened and the headway improved if the line were truncated to West Falls Church, and once the first phase of the Silver Line opens, to Wiehle Avenue. Truncation would be one way of improving service without increasing cost.
The B30 is not in as dire need of improvement. Especially on weekdays, airport travelers bound for Washington have MARC and Amtrak as options. But improved headways and reduced travel times would reflect well on the entrance to the capital.
 | Matt Johnson has lived in the Washington region since mid-2007. He has a Master's degree in Community Planning from the University of Maryland and a BS in Public Policy from Georgia Tech. He has worked in the planning field since 2006 and lives in Greenbelt, where he serves on the city's Advisory Planning Board.    |
Comments
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by Nathan on Dec 22, 2009 12:25 pm • link • report
by Evan on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 pm • link • report
by Evan on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 pm • link • report
Then you get on a bus at BWI. The buses come relatively often, but at the times when a train comes in, obviously, everybody from that train wants to get on that bus, which doesn't always work.
But the worst is definitely the fact that it doesn't run on weekends. I believe that Sunday is either the biggest or second biggest day for air travel. If MARC is to be a viable option for fliers, it should run on weekends.
by Tim on Dec 22, 2009 12:37 pm • link • report
by Allan on Dec 22, 2009 12:39 pm • link • report
I don't imagine there are many BWI airport employees riding the bus since it's so far from DC (not to mention higher cost of living in DC vs. Baltimore) Even if there were, they could be given a discount if it served public policy.
by Cullen on Dec 22, 2009 12:43 pm • link • report
Nevertheless, as Tim pointed out, Marc doesn't run on weekends and it's odd scheduling doesn't make it easy to take Marc when it is running.
by Cullen on Dec 22, 2009 12:49 pm • link • report
Shame on the Region for proving to be less then Capital.
by Redline SOS on Dec 22, 2009 12:51 pm • link • report
It is absolutely insane that on holiday Mondays, when Metro generally runs a Sunday schedule, the 5A only comes once an hour. Tail end of a 3-day weekend = more people flying, not fewer. I'm glad that they're starting to notice the demand and run extra buses on busy travel days. I hope this turns into a regular phenomenon.
Also, a tip for getting on the B30 at BWI: Don't go to Terminal E! It is a bit of a hike from Terminal E to Terminal A (where the bus stops firest), but if the bus isn't due for more than a few minutes, you have time to get there, and you'll have a much better chance of getting on and getting a seat.
by Johanna on Dec 22, 2009 12:53 pm • link • report
by Chris on Dec 22, 2009 12:54 pm • link • report
The only problem with the Washington Flyer is getting to Falls Church, and (cough) that isn't going to any better with a Silver line, folks.
And a little history would be nice. Washington Flyer used to run downtown (and to Rosslyn) before Metro started the 5A. Thanks.
by charlie on Dec 22, 2009 1:02 pm • link • report
Heaven help you if you arrive when there is a change is staff at Dullus, as employees who ride the bus daily know that they have to push and crowd their way on if they want a ride back. No one ever queues up at the bus stop, so getting on depends on getting lucky with where the driver stops and survival of the pushiest.
Twice I've organized luggage stacking on seats so that everyone could get on the bus. i organize it because the bus driver can't be bothered. A rolling suitcase can take up as much space as a person, but you can easily stack 4 of them in a two seat section (and one to two underneath) making room for more people. What's hard is finding people willing to give up their seats to help some other people out.
They need more frequent service, and yes I'd pay more money for that. They need more places to store luggage to make room for more people.
Most of all, they to remove the two stops along the Dulles Tollroad. Almost no one uses those stops and they add 10 minutes to the trip. Set up a separate bus to serve those stops if needed. Getting rid of those stops would allow the bus to use the airport-only lanes and save more time - thus increasing service without increasing cost. They could build small stops off the airport-only lanes and create pedestrian brides to the park and ride/transit areas if it is absolutely necessary to combine the airport shuttle with this service - which I don't think it is.
by David C on Dec 22, 2009 1:10 pm • link • report
by Dan Miller on Dec 22, 2009 1:15 pm • link • report
That people-mover is a good idea, but the MARC station is actually pretty close to the airport; I wonder if, strain of schlepping luggage notwithstanding, providing pedestrian crossings might be more efficient.
by Lucre on Dec 22, 2009 1:26 pm • link • report
As Cullen said, I think it would be great if they could post the NextBus times in the terminal. It shouldn't be too hard to do since they already have screens everywhere (some even are already dedicated to saying where the B30 picks up). I have emailed Maryland Aviation Administration about this, but haven't heard back. Maybe they are the wrong people? Does anyone know who else we could contact with this request?
by Pat O on Dec 22, 2009 1:26 pm • link • report
by Johanna on Dec 22, 2009 1:27 pm • link • report
by Lou on Dec 22, 2009 1:37 pm • link • report
by Jason on Dec 22, 2009 1:43 pm • link • report
by David C on Dec 22, 2009 1:44 pm • link • report
by Jason on Dec 22, 2009 2:04 pm • link • report
by CBGB on Dec 22, 2009 2:20 pm • link • report
by Lou on Dec 22, 2009 2:35 pm • link • report
I usually bet on all trains being late and take whichever one is next. I look at the board in the station to see which train is next, either Amtrak or MARC and buy a ticket accordingly. Sometimes I'm luckly and its the MARC and its $6, but sometimes its Amtrak which winds up being around $20-$25.
by Erik on Dec 22, 2009 2:55 pm • link • report
I've never been on a crowded B30 but given the length of the ride, I can imagine how uncomfortable that would be. However, I find myself willing to pay extra for a weekend flight into Reagan if it means not having to take the B30. Also, having lived in Rosslyn for a while and having noticed how tightly packed the 5A is, I have actually never flown into or out of Dulles.
Ideally, there would be a weekend MARC shuttle between Union Station and BWI. Buying an Amtrak ticket for a specific train only to find out your plane's delayed and you'll miss the train is a frustrating experience. A lot of people (about half the train in my experience) gets off at BWI when I take the MARC train, so I wonder why MTA has not started a weekend shuttle program. I'd even pay up to double the cost of a ticket ($12 instead of $6) to know that I get dropped off downtown after a comfortable train ride instead of a bumpy dark bus ride and then a long wait for a Green line train.
by Teo on Dec 22, 2009 3:08 pm • link • report
Take this as you will, but it's difficult to find an airport in a European capital that isn't linked by rail. So Tegel might not be such a stretch.
Anyway, lots of the people getting on and off MARC at BWI are headed for the massive parking structure there, probably the largest MARC parking facility, system-wide.
by Matt Johnson on Dec 22, 2009 3:11 pm • link • report
by Gavin Baker on Dec 22, 2009 3:15 pm • link • report
by Gavin Baker on Dec 22, 2009 3:18 pm • link • report
I wonder if Amtrak would ever consider changing its fare structure in this one particular case to make it friendlier to people who can't know their schedules in advance. Maybe cap the BWI-WAS walkup fare at $10-12 or so (the cheapest advance purchase ticket appears to be $9). As it is, the southbound trains at BWI are rarely completely full, so there's extra capacity there that's going to waste.
by Johanna on Dec 22, 2009 3:19 pm • link • report
by Gavin Baker on Dec 22, 2009 3:21 pm • link • report
My issue with the B30 is less so with the fact that it comes only every 40 minutes and more so that WMATA and MTA won't coordinate the Light Rail and B30 schedules. With no MARC service on weekends, the B30 to Light Rail is the cheapest (though kinda long) means to get from the DC area to the Baltimore area. How hard is it for the two transit agencies to coordinate the schedule so that when one arrives, you can quickly transfer to the other?
by Justin..... on Dec 22, 2009 3:22 pm • link • report
airport and area employees, 2) To provide a connection from Herndon-Monroe to DC and back. These were the justifications
provided to MWAA to allow Metrobus to compete with the Washington Flyer for airport travelers. Naturally,
the 5A has proven popular with airport travelers, and service has slowly increased.
The remark that truncating the line would improve service makes no sense. Most travelers from the airport are not going to Falls Church, they are going to the urban core (DC, Arlington, etc.) The Fairfax County Master Plan advocates eliminating the Herndon-Monroe and Tysons stops from the 5A to improve service, while adding a Tysons-Herndon Farifax connector bus, which would be eliminated once the Silver Line is operational. As a daily 5A commuter, I caluculated that cutting the Herndon-Monroe stop would save almost 10 minutes westbound and five minutes eastbound. The 5A would continue to provide service from DC/Arlington to Dulles at a higher speed, improving efficiency on the line.
by Zach W on Dec 22, 2009 3:25 pm • link • report
by Johanna on Dec 22, 2009 3:27 pm • link • report
Also, it's worth noting that all of the TXL buses are 60-foot articulated buses and there is usually one waiting for you at the terminal, even if it doesn't depart for another 10 minutes.
This comparison will be moot soon because Tegel is a terrible airport and it is being closed in 2011 to be replaced by a new airport with a rail station.
by Phil on Dec 22, 2009 3:33 pm • link • report
by Pat O on Dec 22, 2009 3:57 pm • link • report
@Johanna: I've had that experience multiple times! This is one of the reason's I'd pay extra to fly into Reagan. As I live in Arlington, I figure paying an extra $50 or so to shave an hour off my travel time once I get off the plane is well worth it.
by Teo on Dec 22, 2009 4:05 pm • link • report
by David C on Dec 22, 2009 4:07 pm • link • report
by Lou on Dec 22, 2009 4:52 pm • link • report
I guess in answer to your question I would not buy in advance - you just don't know if your flight is going to be delayed, the shuttle might take a while, etc.
by Aaron on Dec 22, 2009 4:53 pm • link • report
1)capacity: It is utterly ridiculous to have six or seven trans-Atlantic flights (London, Frankfurt, Paris, etc.) all arriving within an hour or so in the mid-afternoon, and only one 40-person, no-luggage-compartment bus available per hour to service them. I always pity the looks on bewildered European guests' faces as they struggle with their first exposure to DC's public transportation system.
2)price: I think the cost, last time I rode the 5A, was $3.10, exact change. Given that this route is disproportionately serving foreigners who have just arrived from another country, how realistic is this? Would it not be easier to keep the fare at $3? Or make it a flat $5?
3)loading: at Dulles, the lack of an actual line (or, for example, a clearly-designated queue) leads to chaos, as desperate travels jockey for position with pushy airport employees, to see who will make it on and who will get left behind.
...Just my two cents.
by David H on Dec 22, 2009 5:33 pm • link • report
by Wes on Dec 22, 2009 5:37 pm • link • report
@David H, good point about the cost and how long it takes to board. It would speed things up if they had a kiosk that would sell one way tickets that patrons could show the driver (and pay for with credit cards). The average person is waiting 20 minutes for the bus, plenty of time to figure out how to buy a ticket. This stop (and the one at BWI) is different from others in that there are a large number of people who don't normally ride the bus, be they tourists or otherwise.
by David C on Dec 22, 2009 6:21 pm • link • report
@Pat: Ah, I got you now. I agree, there does need to be something for pre-payment. I'd think something like other cities use to handle their BRT routes could work.
by Justin..... on Dec 22, 2009 6:32 pm • link • report
I agree with having better coordination with Light Rail and B30 schedules. The BWI branch of Light Rail operates every 30 mins and trains leave at 10 and 40 past the hour, so you have to get every other B30 in order to connect to a train in time. It's worse with Light Rail and MTA bus connecting to the B30. The 17 comes within 2 mins of the first SB departure and the light rail just barely misses it.
Also, having an offsite Smartrip point isn't really going to do anything. The bulk of the passengers paying are travelers who pay with cash. I heard some person complaining of the lack of a credit card reader on the fareboxes and the thing with having exact change only (Some people are just difficult). The B30 is also a MARC commuters lifeline when MARC doesn't run on certain holidays or on S schedule days, but MTA and WMATA needs better coordination between the two to provide seemless transfers between both services.
As past years and holiday rushes have shown, the B30 needs better scheduling. It has the same schedule since 2001 when it first debuted. More passengers are drawn to the service as a way to get to the Metro or to the Airport, but that 40 min headway is a pain. Maybe having it run every 20 during rush hour and 30 during off-peak and weekends would work. I do agree with the earlier bus option for weekends.
Regarding MARC, MARC will not have a smart card payment option at all, even with MTA's system in place. I don't know if its something between them and Amtrak/CSX or just pure idiocy since the bulk of commuters have Smartrip cards and Smartbenefits. Cubic has a mobile card reader product that would work fine, if only MTA can just find their brain.
by K Conaway on Dec 22, 2009 7:04 pm • link • report
And, unfortunately, K Conaway is correct. MTA has no plans to use smart cards on the MARC system. The technology is there, but for whatever reason, MTA has decided it would be too difficult to implement.
by Stanton Park on Dec 22, 2009 10:52 pm • link • report
I have an idea for a simpler, more accurate post title:
"Airport buses offer a lackluster welcome"
But you knew that was coming.
Go ahead and get that rail link to the airport done, and learn from Seatac and build some TOD at the airport. I said build some TOD at the airport. Just don't allow them to sneak in any significant parking.
Also, work on that urban growth boundary thing. To the airport, but no farther. Any new development in and around the district should have strict transportation requirement cooked-in. If you can't walk/bike/transit to and from the new development, it doesn't get built.
by Peter Smith on Dec 23, 2009 1:36 am • link • report
by Justin..... on Dec 23, 2009 2:08 am • link • report
by JESAnnapolis on Dec 23, 2009 5:48 am • link • report
If you push the entire B30 schedule 5-10 minutes earlier (or 10-15 minutes later), that would be much better. True, the bus will sometimes be delayed, and I'm not suggesting that they should hold the train when that happens. But at least when the bus does arrive on time (as it does fairly often), passengers aren't met with the massive 20-minute wait.
At other times of the day, when the Green Line runs with other headways that don't divide evenly into 40, it wouldn't be as easy to synchronize. But at those times, at least you're guaranteed a less-than-20-minute wait for the train anyway, so I don't see that as such a big deal.
by Johanna on Dec 23, 2009 8:10 am • link • report
http://www.rtd-denver.com/skyRide_SubHome.shtml
Here in DC now, I take the 5A to Dulles and back often, and it's a hassle, but if you time it right, it works like a champ. If you miss it, like I have a few times, the waits are awful and depending upon the time of day (and time of year), the crowding on the bus is really bad. There is no room for luggage, no room for everyone on the bus, and it in general just sucks. I really wish they'd improve it greatly or add different routes to other destinations to lessen the impact of any one bus route.
by Jason on Dec 23, 2009 11:53 am • link • report
Simple solution for BWI too: Don't fly weekends. If you are flying on a weekend, have a friend pick you up (or drop you off.) On weekdays, BWI is fantastic. (Hourly MARC to Union Station for 6 bucks.)
I live in Silver Spring, don't own a car, make about five or six flights a year, and this system works for me.
by PaulB on Dec 23, 2009 2:59 pm • link • report
And "not flying weekends" is a simple solution? So if no one will fly weekends, we can just shut the airport down over weekends, right? That's pretty simple. And again, your solution to 30B bus is to not use it, and so we don't need to have it?
I think we can do better.
by David C on Dec 23, 2009 4:31 pm • link • report
by Erik W on Dec 23, 2009 4:35 pm • link • report
As for BWI, my comment was meant to be a little more light hearted. I didn't suggest we should do away with the 30B, just that there are alternatives. Certainly, people will continue to fly from BWI on weekends. People who park their cars at the airport for one, and still others who have friends or family to drop them off/pick them up. My suggestion is for people utterly reliant on transit like me: plan ahead when you buy tickets.
I love this blog, but sometimes it seems preoccupied with making everyone's transit experience as convenient as possible without considering non-transit possibilities for public money. Sure, a second or third entrance to Columbia Heights station would be cool, but at what cost? Wouldn't expanding 30B service be great? Sure. Is it a priority that should be placed ahead of the gajillion other programs (both transit and non-transit) that need money? I doubt it.
I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis and never used public transit. I didn't mind; Driving was easy, traffic hardly ever a problem and parking was free almost everywhere you went. But a car was a necessity. Here in DC, I've foregone owning a car because the costs in gas, insurance, and time far outweigh the convenience of having the car. Instead, I'm continually delighted by how easily I can get to all three of the major airports, and, for that matter, pretty much anywhere I want, using the very same options you malign as inadequate.
by PaulB on Dec 23, 2009 6:12 pm • link • report
The Airport Authority dropped direct buses to DC ages ago. Dropping people at WFC, rather than at a major hotel downtown is ridiculous. I've often had to help people to their destination from the Orange Line becuase no one bothered to provide info and if someone knows English, they'll still find the "do-it yourself" route difficult. The Airports Authority should subsidize the 5A if necessary and provide much more frequent travel. It would be a boon to airport employees and users. I doubt that it would cut into use of the taxis and they could retire the lightly used WFC buses. they also should make it easier to find the 5A if you're jetlagged and tired.
I've done backpacker travel all over the world and for every place like Amsterdam where everything is connected, there's a place like Rome which is as bad or worse than IAD (at least when I was there). Still that's no excuse for DC airports being such a pain.
by Rich on Dec 23, 2009 9:17 pm • link • report
1) Better Service to IAD - the issue here is the various constituencies. The bus to Dulles is there to serve residents in DC looking for jobs along the Dulles corridor. The fact that it can be used by airport travelers is icing on the cake. If you don't like the fact that the 5A has limited luggage space (which is too high for many to use wihtout assistance), runs infrequently and is overcrowded take the Washington Flyer bus. This bus is NEVER crowded, almost always on time, has space under the bus for luggage as they use over the road coaches, and runs more frequently. The job of WMATA is not to provide cheap transportation to people wanting to get to IAD. If you can't afford the $12 premium (okay it's a bit more because your Metro fare will likely be more) to take the Flyer then you probably can't afford to fly. As for door to door service it's offered by SuperShuttle. In fact, my wife and I took it to IAD when we left due to the snow making it difficult to take normal transit.
2) Eliminating stops on 5A - this is the most self serving stupid comment I've heard. When I rode the 5A, 2 people got on at Herndon and 1 at Tysons. You know they looked like they were getting off work and they were hard working immigrants. Only a self serving person who can afford to fly would want them to have to wait a lot longer and pay more for their daily commute to save themselves 10 minutes off their jetaway trip. Plus eastbound the two stops probably add more like five to seven minutes not ten minutes as some posters have claimed.
3) Better service to BWI - The current service is not overwhelmed. Again, there is an alternative in MARC/Amtrak. There is an issue for Amtrak tickets in that if you don't book in advance you pay more. The solution is to look at your flight schedule and book whatever train you think you can make reasonably. If you end up arriving late, well that can be tough, but given that the B30 still runs every 40 minutes on weekends it may be the better alternative back on a weekend while MARC is the better alternative on weekdays.
In conclusion, there are a lot of issues with transit in DC. Improving Metrobus service to the IAD and BWI should not be anywhere near the top of any priority list. We already have one airport (DCA) which has the arguably the best rail service in North America. Why waste scarce resources on improving service to and/from distant airports like IAD and BWo should not be a high priority.
by Dharm on Dec 28, 2009 5:02 pm • link • report
1) No one has claimed that improving Metrobus service to the IAD and BWI should be near the top of any priority list. It is just the issue that is being discussed here. If you only want to talk about what should be at the top of our priority list every single day we'll end up with a lot of discussions about the final destinations of our immortal souls.
2) Better Service to IAD. I think that the 5A has shown that there is a constituency for a bus that runs directly from L'Enfant and Rosslyn to IAD. Currently such a bus does not exist. Why shouldn't Metro run such a bus? Washington Flyer is not that bus. It's actually slower that the 5A from L'Enfant. The 5A is not that bus. All I'm saying is that a market is available for a better bus service. And even if it costs $12, people would still take it. Since one purpose of Metro is to reduce VMT/congestion wouldn't it make sense to reduce the number of people driving out to IAD?
3. Eliminating stops on 5A - No one is advocating abandoning the two stops along the Dulles corridor. As I said "Set up a separate bus to serve those stops if needed." What is being advocated is dropping those two stops from a DC-IAD bus route. Another service, or the existing 5A, would still serve your hardworking person. So, no one is self-serving or stupid, but clearly you could use some reading comprehension classes.
4. Better Service to BWI - "The current service is not overwhelmed." Well, we have a couple of writers above who say that at times it is. That at times people get left at the train station or the airport. So, are they lying? Do you have some numbers to back that up? This connection has many flaws - MARC doesn't run on weekends, MARC and Amtrak still leave you a bus ride away, Metro stops running at 11:30pm leaving you struggling to get home if a flight comes in late, trains are infrequent, buses are infrequent, you can't use Smart cards on MARC or Amtrak. But as you point out, people can still get to and from the airport using transit if they plan, are willing to wait for long periods and have intimate knowledge of both the train and bus schedules so that they can jump to plan B as needed.
In conclusion, it is possible to get to/from the outer airports using transit. But some of us think it could be better. Are you arguing that it couldn't be better? Because that's the other side of the argument.
by David C on Dec 29, 2009 5:30 pm • link • report
In response to your first point (1), you are correct that if we talk about priorities we would spend years debating which things belong on the top of a priority list. However, if when Metro is about to cut service this fiscal year and again next fiscal year and then bring up the subject of improving service to the airport then whether it's a priority is a valid issue because of the times we live in. If on the other hand, Metro was in good financial shape then I wouldn't criticize you. I suggest you take some classes on critical thinking before you criticize my reading comprehension skills.
In regards to your second point (2), the current 5a bus does provide direct service albeit with either one or two stops depending upon the time of day and day of the week. Can the service be made better, perhaps? I would suggest if your goal is to have good service then WMATA should not be the operator, but rather the Washington Flyer bus service. I also question the need to go to Rosslyn/LÂ’Enfant Plaza. The reality is that unless your hotel is within walking distance of either of those Metro stops people will have to take a taxi or the Metro to their final destination. The fact that the services are oversubscribed is due as much to the fact that it is the cheapest way to get to airport and not so much the convenience issue. I've done both the 5A and the Washington Flyer to the airport and personally won't try the 5A during peak travel times because it is overcrowded but don't dwell on that fact and just take the Washington Flyer. LetÂ’s be honest, if you canÂ’t get on the 5a or if you have to stand the slightly longer trip time of the Metro/Washington Flyer is more than made up by the convenience factor it provides.
In regards to your third point (3), I suggest you look at the schedules. The reason the 5A does not stop at Tyson's during the AM and PM rush on weekdays is there IS another route serving the route. The idea that Metro will start another route just to serve those people is borderline laughable and if they do it will not go into DC. For them, the extra metro fare to get to West Falls Church is a big deal, but for the typical jetsetter another $1.50 it is not a big deal. Finally, letÂ’s not forget this service was started to get people to jobs in the suburbs and the stops at Herndon and Tysons allow people to transfer to other buses that take them to their jobs.
As for your forth point (4), I'll concede that at some times the service may be overwhelmed. If this was Denver and the Airport service was premium service then I believe WMATA would have a obligation to provide more buses. This is not and the service to BWI is just another express route. Despite your claims of the train service having shortfalls a LOT of people take it. That is based on my frequent travel on that route since 2000. In fact, the issue of the shuttle buses being overwhelmed at the BWI train station by the surge of passengers getting of Amtrak and MARC trains is also an issue but less so than the Metrobus because the service is more frequent. By the way, I think you are way off base on people not wanting to take the train. I was in Miami on vacation and rode the Tri-Rail to the Miami airport stop. The number of people getting off the train when service was on a weekend level (a train every 2 hours) overwhelmed the first shuttle bus and even left the second shuttle bus fairly full. I believe that the current rail service to BWI is sufficient. Plus, let's be honest parking at BWI due to competition is too easy and cheap. I pay about $6.50 a day to park at BWI and whenever I travel from there drive unless I'm leaving during the PM rush. The service is excellent and even at the off airport lots you will be at the terminal in 20 minutes Contrast that to parking at Dulles where it's more like a 30 minute time to the terminal from the satellite lots and they charge you $10 a day because of the monopoly market. To anyone with a car, Dulles is the better market to serve with transit because it's just harder and more expensive to park there.
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by Dharm on Dec 29, 2009 6:10 pm • link • report
by David C on Dec 29, 2009 10:40 pm • link • report
I also have little patience for people who present alternatives that are not well thought out. In work and advocacy, it's always best when you come to the table. If you are presenting what appear at face value to be short term solutions (given that the Silver Line will solve everything when it gets to Dulles), then you owe it to others to note that Metro will be cutting service not expanding it. Thus proposing eliminating stops to be picked up by "other" routes that don't now exist is simply not a solution but rather shifts the problems from airport commuters to those using the Herndon and Tysons transit center stations.
Finally, you COMPLETELY missed my point about Reagan National. I like many will pay MORE to fly out of Reagan National because it has such great transit service. I was sitting next to someone on my last business trip to Chicago who was from San Diego. He'd rather connect and fly into DCA than deal with getting into the city from IAD. Again, the problem isn't that great. I approach things from a system analysis point of view, and if 1 or 2 people are left behind by Metro on airport routes but 40 are served that's really not a major problem. Guess what, that happens frequently on Metrorail every AM rush and also on some heavily travelled bus routes when there is congestion. It's a problem, but people aren't crying about it like the sky is falling.
Finally, as a resident of Arlington, I'd much rather see my tax dollars go towards improving service to IAD and DCA than BWI. That's because the economic development from additional usage at those airports will benefit the economy in a much greater way than improving public transportation to/from BWI.
Finally, my point on priorities was also completely missed by you. This isn't Europe and are overall public transportation system needs improvement. We have scarce resources, so advocating for improvements on regular Metrobus service is a far better public policy. The reality is that if people take a taxi or rent a car because public transportation is inadequate to far flung airports that generates more inflow into our economy than a good bus service. Now I realize that's bad from the broader public policy view, but then again the broader public policy view would see improvement prioritized on heavily travelled Metrobus routes and neither the 5A nor B30 qualify as heavily travelled except on certain days of the week and times of year.
by Dharm on Dec 30, 2009 11:11 am • link • report
As for my alternative not being well thought out, well, it's a comment on a blog, not a policy paper or a Washington Post editorial - so maybe some patience is called for. I'm not suggesting a short term solution. The Silver Line will not negate the usefulness of an express IAD to DC bus line. The Silver Line will be a very slow ride to the airport. Also, again, I'm saying that Metro should create an express line AND continue to run something that serves the other 5A users. I am not proposing eliminating service. I suppose I am advocating expanding service. Does the money exist? I don't know and I don't care. I'm only stating how I'd like the service to run, but I think Metro could charge more for such a service, so some money would be available.
If I missed your point about DCA, it's because you didn't really make one. You said "We already have one airport (DCA) which has the arguably the best rail service in North America." Agreed. Then you asked, "Why waste scarce resources on improving service to and/from distant airports like IAD and BWo should not be a high priority." Which is sort of a question so I'll sort of answer. Because many people choose to fly out of BWI and DCA. As great as DCA is, you can't fly internationally (with a few exceptions) out of it and there are limits as to how many long distance flights the airport can schedule - driving up costs on those flights. Which brings me to the other point, tickets out of DCA are more expensive. You keep pulling the 60's word "jetsetter" out as though only rich people fly, which just isn't true anymore, and acting as though this is some sort of class war between the rich people riding the 5A bus to IAD and the poor workers using it to get to and from work, but people riding the 5A to IAD are probably no wealthier than the workers. If they were, they'd be taking one of those alternatives you think I've failed to consider. People are choosing the 5A to IAD because it fits their needs and you and Paul seem to think that they're all making the wrong choice and that their problems would be solved if they would just fly out of DCA like you, take the Washington Flyer, use Amtrak, have a friend drive them, not fly into BWI on the weekends etc...But you know what, all of those options cost more money. Where is your concern for those of limited needs now? It takes a lot of gumption to think you know what is best for all of those people. That none of them considered all of their options and they just need you to set them straight.
I would say that leaving a few people behind on Metro routes that only run once every 40 minutes, is quite a bit different than leaving a few at train stations where trains run every 5-7 minutes, wouldn't you? A person left by the 5A might miss their flight, and they'll certainly be turned off by the 5A, and by possibly by Metro bus in general. Imagine waiting 20 minutes for a bus and then not getting on because there aren't enough seats and catching the next one 40 minutes later. That's a pretty serious inconvenience. A lot more than missing a Metro train and catching the next one.
I'm not sure about the economic advantages of transit to one airport over another, nor do I see the economic advantage of making the airport hard to get to. Perhaps you can show a study or report on the economic development advantages of providing transit to IAD and DCA over BWI or how inducing people to not use transit to BWI is good for the local economy? I'm sorry to ask for such detail, but I have little patience for people who present alternatives that are not well thought out.
by David C on Dec 30, 2009 4:51 pm • link • report
Should be "...BWI and IAD."
by David C on Dec 30, 2009 4:52 pm • link • report
i'd love to see a non stop rapid train from the airports direct to union station. i like that dream a lot actually. and i bet congress would like it.
till then, i'll drive to bwi.
or train it to dca.
and pray to god i don't have to go to dulles.
by a on Dec 30, 2009 5:21 pm • link • report
Do you know anything about transit planning? The goal of building rail is to provide a more cost effective solution to transportation. When Metro's Blue and Orange lines were introduced almost all bus service (with few exceptions) was truncated at Metro stations in Virginia requiring a transfer to reach destinations in the District of Columbia. Despite the fact that it required a transfer and at times actually takes longer than what the direct bus used to take. However, it does cost less to operate service this way which is why to this day we have only a handful of Metrobus routes that cross the Potomac. Would it be nice to have them sure, and IÂ’d be one of those to benefit from this change, but I would never advocate for it in the current fiscal climate. In fact, IÂ’d only advocate for it if Metro was rolling in dough and the rail system was at capacity (which it was close to before the recession hit) because there are lots of other priorities I know which would get more bang for the buck. Perhaps the difference between you and me is that you only care about your transportation needs while I look out for the bigger picture.
To get back to your reading between the lines of your which is to say that there will be a need for express bus service to the Airport shows your ignorance of the subject is only matched by your arrogance. First, the Metro will likely run every 12 minutes off peak and more frequently at peak times and any express bus service will run every 30 minutes at best. Second, most riding the express bus service will need to transfer anyway, while those riding the Silver Line destined for many destinations (but not all) in DC and Arlington will have a one seat ride. When you consider the hassles of transferring modes with baggage, I really donÂ’t think there will be much of a market. If there it would be one using premium vehicles like the Washington Flyer and probably going to the Farragut Square area not LÂ’Enfant Plaza.
As for your point about comparing people of modest means who fly versus daily commuters. I'll grant you that some of the people who use the 5a in the peak direction (in the morning from the Herndon Park and Ride to Rosslyn/LÂ’Enfant) may be as wealthy as those catching the 5a to fly. However, I can guarantee you the average person taking the 5a from the District/Arlington to a job in the Dulles Corridor is on average not very wealthy. Now, I will get to the basic rational for public transit which is to provide for economic development. What your stubborn mind fails to consider it is MORE important to provide jobs through reverse commute transit service and basic urban transit than to airports.
As for your argument on why people NEED to fly from BWI or IAD, I can buy that. I just donÂ’t' buy the need to take scarce subsidies to make it easier for people to fly out a airport with cheaper and or more convenient flights. If people want to be cheap and not very savvy by trying to take the 5a on Friday before a holiday weekend and then show up 10 minutes before the bus leaves and get left behind, I don't have much sympathy for them. I have NO concern for anyone who can afford to fly for leisure (letÂ’s be honest a business traveler will get their expenses reimbursed) having inadequate service to IAD especially since the Silver Line will cure that problem forever. It iss one thing if you go to New York on the Chinatown bus (tickets as low as $1 each way) and crash on a friends couch. Maybe even a person of modest means can afford that. However, the truth is any round trip airline ticket with taxes and fees is going to cost at least $200 and that's before you start to add in any rental car, hotel, meals, et.. Anyone who takes leisure trips by air is by definition in most cases not of very modest means.
I have a LOT of concern for a reverse commuter having to stand or worse not being able to get on the 5a because of airplane passengers. FTA rules prohibit discriminating against riders, however, they do allow authorities to restrict the number and size of bags. As an interim solution to the overcrowding on the 5a a move to consider by Metro would be to not allow any bags larger than a carryon. That would actually be a good experiment because I bet you a lot of airline passengers will shift to the Washington Flyer as a result. Before you go on some rant, Samtrans did this on their service to San Francisco International Airport before BART was extended to the airport. It wasn't so much a concession to the taxi/shuttle industry as it was that the service was primarily for employees at the airport not the jetsetting crowd. It's similar in Mexico City where they do have a Metro at the airport but they won't let you through the gates with anything larger than backpack because of overcrowding issues. Before the recession, I wished they did the same for oversize bags at DCA. ThereÂ’s nothing worse than getting on a overcrowded Yellow or Blue train and having most of the door you want to use blocked by some clueless tourist with a bag big enough to stuff children into. Not only do those bags restrict circulation but they also take up space in a packed train that could be used by paying passengers.
Now getting to your point about missing the 5A or B30. Yes, the consequences are large. However, the fact is that while any person may not be able to get on a crowded train or bus will likely be able to get on the next one or the one after that is correct. However, there are a LOT more of them because the trains run every 2.5 to 6 minutes during rush hour and on busy bus routes the bus runs every 3 to 5 minutes. The bottom line in my opinion is if you are determined to get the airport the cheapest way then you donÂ’t really value your time highly and can just leave earlier to ensure they make their flight. I liken that to the folks at my graduate school that bought the parking permit for the far out lot and then complained of the long walk to/from the academic heart of campus.
Finally, the reasons for supporting more service to IAD over BWI should be self evident. More growth at IAD means more jobs which means more taxes paid and more development occurs in the local area. Since Fairfax County is a compact member of WMATA and the Commonwealth of Virginia also provides support to WMATA, this is good. BWI meanwhile is actually located nearer Baltimore than Washington (hence its name) and much of the resulting economic development from more jobs there would flow to the Baltimore area instead of the Washington area.
by Dharm on Dec 30, 2009 5:42 pm • link • report
However, it's also important to be respectful toward others' comments. I want people to feel comfortable posting their opinions no matter how much background knowledge they have. When I first posted on the blog I said lots of things some of which were right and some of which were wrong. People respectfully set me right when I was wrong, and still do if they think I'm wrong now.
by David Alpert on Dec 30, 2009 6:02 pm • link • report
Second, from GGW "On the currently-planned line, Dulles Airport will be 8 stops from the Orange Line at East Falls Church, 18 stops from Metro Center, and 21 stops including a transfer from Union Station. By comparison, 21 stops is the entire length of the Green Line. Yes, Dulles will be on the system, but it will take a rider about an hour to get there from downtown DC." An hour is how long it takes on the 5A now to L'Enfant. If a bus were to do it express, 40 minutes would not be out of the question.
While economic development is certainly a goal of transit, so is getting people out of their cars (for environmental, safety, congestion and efficiency reasons). So, transit to airports helps with that. And since it can provide transportation for tourists, and making a place that is easy for tourists is good for tourism, and tourism is a major source of revenue in DC, it's good for economic development too.
When I was young and broke (making like $14k a year) I still needed to fly. Once I flew for a job interview where the interviewer wouldn't buy my ticket. Once I flew for a funeral. Once I flew for a wedding. While some of those might seem like leisure, they weren't necessarily luxury flying and I certainly was not someone of means.
by David C on Dec 31, 2009 12:09 am • link • report
I still donÂ’t' understand why you think an express bus from LÂ’Enfant Plaza makes so much sense. Firstly, about half or more of the ridership comes from Rosslyn and not LÂ’Enfant Plaza. Also knowing where the population centers and hotels are it would seem to make far more sense if you had an express bus to Dulles to have it go to Rosslyn but then get back on I-66 cross on the Teddy Roosevelt Bridge and then go via the stub freeway to K Street. Then I'd have the route continue on city streets with stops at Washington Circle (serving GWU), Farragut Square, McPherson Square, and finally terminating at Metro Center. This would route it by lots of people and hotels.
Finally, I think you should consider Matt Johnson's (the blog author) suggestion of truncating the 5a at West Falls Church. Maybe then the money MWAA spends subsidizing the Flyer could be pooled with he existing Metro subsidy to provide a really frequent (15 or 20 minute) service to/from Dulles. It could be operated by Metro with the existing buses and their shortcomings for luggage, or it could be operated by the Flyer with nice equipment but a higher fare. I think youÂ’d have to conduct some surveys to determine which is optimal. The one thing I've learned in transportation planning is frequency beats speed. So, a 40 minute express bus running every 40 minutes to a hour (the current 5A frequency) actually could result in longer total trip times than a 15 minute shuttle like service between West Falls Church and Dulles.
I'd like to point out that the route that now exists is because of how Metro funds service. The 5A was initially funded entirely by the District as a pilot program to get people from DC to jobs at Dulles Airport and Tysons/Reston/Herndon. Once the pilot phase was over, I believe it became a "system" Metrobus route which means there's a complex formula for divvying up the operating subsidy but the lions share is born by the jurisdictions served. Thus, Fairfax wanting stops at Herndon/Tysons and Arlington wanting the stop at Rosslyn (which few argue is not necessary). Finally, to complicate things the actual airport Terminal at Dulles is in Loudon County which is not a member of the WMATA compact. The same applies for the B30, but Maryland paid to actually modify the Metrobuses used in the service (the District never paid for the same conversions because they never intended it to serve airport travelers) on the route and paid 100% of the operating subsidy again as a pilot. Maryland pays 100% of Montgomery and PG County's subsidy anyway so the funding issue is not that complicated. My point is even if the taps of money were flowing for transit, if I was an Arlington or Fairfax government official I would be questioning why I'm providing service to a county that doesn't pay into WMATA. The easy solution would be to shift the funding of the Virginia portion of subsidy of the route to the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation (VDRPT) but I believe that would require a legislative change because virtually all their funding now flows through localities.
Finally, as for promoting cheap transportation for travel to airports you seem to have it both ways. You want Metro to provide better service to the airport because it will reduce VMT and thus also reduce pollution and energy consumption. Yet, traveling by air is one of the most environmentally unfriendly ways to travel. One that will likely become more expensive if we are to reduce greenhouse gas emissions over the long term, but I suppose youÂ’d oppose that because traveling by air is a right. Your view of how and whether people should travel by air seems to be grounded on the belief that it both a right and essential. I too traveled by air when I was in college and graduate school, but I never expected good transit service especially when flying to/from BWI and IAD which I sometimes did when in graduate school. However, I often paid more to fly into DCA because it was close in I could get a ride or and I could take the Metro when I got off my flight and not worry about getting into the city. Believe me I know all the tricks, as IÂ’ll explain my mode choices from IAD which I bet you probably didnÂ’t think I know. If traveling with my wife and arriving on weekends with lots of luggage I will rent a car from at IAD (or BWI for that matter) and then drop it off at DCA (I live 3 miles from DCA). If arriving on weekdays, I canÂ’t do the same because car rental rates are much higher and then Super Shuttle is the most cost effective wayway. If arriving at IAD without a lot of luggage at non peak times the 5A to Rosslyn and then a taxis is the way to go for me. Otherwise itÂ’s the Washing Flyer Bus to West Falls Church and then the Metro to Ballston and either a 22A or a taxi (the 22A only runs every 40 minutes off peak).
All I ask you is to think about the situation about transportation to the airports from a perspective other than people must fly and its good public policy to allow them to fly even if they choose airports far away from the city center. You pointed out that one reason people fly from IAD over DCA is that they are flying internationally. I doubt anyone who can afford an international airline ticket is poor. This type of entitlement mentality reminds me of my time as a consultant at the Inter-American Development Bank a decade ago. Long term non US citizens were given official visas but not health insurance. Instead if they were single they were given $150 a month or $250 a month if married/dependent children stipend on top of your normaly salary. In exchange, you had to sign an agreement certifying that they would get health insurance but you never audited. So many of my young colleagues complained about the high cost of insurance here in the US and simply didn't buy it BUT the trip home to see their families overseas was essential and not a luxury. In one case, a long term consultant who didn't buy insurance was hit by an uninsured motorist and rung up a huge hospital bill. Since she was on an official visa the Bank paid here hospital bill and immediately terminated her contract.
My point is that traveling by air is not a luxury and good cheap pubic transportation to far off airports is neither a right nor a high priority. For close in airports, I’ll carve out an exception because they can be served by small diversions of existing public transportation (e.g. the Blue and Yellow lines would still have to go by National Airport so the cost of diverting the line from the railroad right of way to the airport was modest). In addition because the distances are short, the service to close in airports can be from a subsidy standpoint be as cost effective as other routes in the area. The same cannot be said for most types of “express” bus service including the existing service to the airports. The Silver Line is also okay because while it’s far out, there would still be a need to build public transportation in the corridor even if Dulles Airport doesn’t exist. In fact, the Silver line will serve the airport with a spur (the line continues into Loudon County).
by Dharm on Dec 31, 2009 10:31 am • link • report
A 40 minute express bus running every 40 minutes to a hour (the current 5A frequency) actually could result in longer total trip times than a 15 minute shuttle like service between West Falls Church and Dulles.
Using, your numbers it would be slightly faster. For the express bus you'd have an average 30 minute dwell time followed by a 40 minute bus ride for a 70 minute trip. The shuttle service would have 7.5 minutes of dwell, 22 minute bus ride, 10 minutes of transition and dwell time in WFC and 27 minute rail ride for a 66.5 minute ride. But if the same number of buses running on the 5A run on the faster route, they would come more frequently so, closer to every 40 minutes, and the trip to Metro Center could be made in 30 minutes (while the Metro ride to Metro Center is only 5 minutes faster). That lowers both trips to Metro Center to 50 minutes(express) and 61.5 minutes(shuttle). Additionally, the standard deviation for the express bus would be larger, meaning that it would range from 30 to 70 minutes, as opposed to 47 to 75 minutes, which means there is a larger advantage to planning your trip to reduce dwell time or using nextbus to decide if another alternative makes more sense, lowering the average ride time more than it would for the shuttle service. Also, I'm doubtful that by combining the Washington Flyer and 5A resources you could double the Washington Flyer frequency.
if I was [sic] an Arlington or Fairfax government official I would be questioning why I'm providing service to a county that doesn't pay into WMATA.
Because the destination is one that many of your constituents go to, and the service brings people to your jurisdiction which is good for business. I seriously doubt that many Loudon county residents use the 5A. I bet it is almost all Arlington, Alexandria, Fairfax and DC residents.
traveling by air is one of the most environmentally unfriendly ways to travel....but I suppose youÂ’d oppose that because traveling by air is a right.
Air travel is an environmentally unfriendly way to travel, (though ) and I'd like to see all of the negative externalities of flying captured in the taxes added to an airplane ticket along with incentives to induce people to take the train and bus more. But, I'm not for ending air travel. I don't know where you get the impression that I think flying is a right. I don't. I do think it is an essential part of our modern world. If we ended air travel it would be very harmful to society, in my opinion.
You seem to want to leave air travel be and increase emissions by encouraging more driving (what could be worse than having someone drive you to the airport and then drive home and then come and get you when you return and then drive home again?) Arguing that we shouldn't trim emissions on the ride to the airport because the flight emits so much is like arguing you shouldn't have a glass of tea with fast food because the fast food is so bad for you. The two decisions only seem to be connected because they are related. But the decision to fly is one decision and how to get to the airport is another. We should encourage people to make the best choice for both decisions.
I too traveled by air when I was in college and graduate school, but I never expected good transit service
In the DC Metro area I always want good transit service. If we are to have a truly world class transit system, then good transit to all major destinations in the region is something we should all expect and the three local airports are major regional destinations.
People don't have to fly, but we know people will fly and Metro should serve those people. What other things do you think people shouldn't do and therefore don't want Metro to serve people doing those things?
I doubt anyone who can afford an international airline ticket is poor.
Really? Not anyone? Not an immigrant who's going home to see family? Like those same guys who ride the 5A to work? You don't think any of those people save up money to go home every few years? And, as I've tried to point out, Metro doesn't exist just to serve the poor. That is one thing it does, but not the only thing. Or should we not sell Metro passes to people making over $100k a year?
My point is that traveling by air is not a luxury and good cheap pubic transportation to far off airports is neither a right nor a high priority.
I assume you mean that it is a luxury. I disagree. 1 in 4 Americans will take at least one trip by air this year. 25% is not really luxury territory.
Public transit to airports as a right is probably overstating it, but I do think it is something that WMATA, or really someone, should provide. WMATA advertises itself as a way to get to the airport, so if they're in that business, then they should do it well. If they said "The 5A goes to IAD, but really it isn't meant to get you there quickly or reliably" that would be one thing, but they don't . Instead they pitch it as Metro service to the airport.
Finally, I'll repeat, I'm not discussing priorities and where better airport service would fall on such a list.
My central thesis is this: Better service to IAD from DC would be used by many people, far more than use the 5A now. Creating such a service would be good for the region as it would provide a safe, clean, affordable means of reaching the airport in a timely matter; would reduce congestion and could serve as a "gateway drug" to entice people skittish about Metro bus to try more Metro bus services. Therefore WMATA should consider creating such a service.
by David C on Dec 31, 2009 12:08 pm • link • report
by David C on Dec 31, 2009 12:11 pm • link • report
Finally, you just opened up the gates by stating this:
[i] "In the DC Metro area I always want good transit service. If we are to have a truly world class transit system, then good transit to all major destinations in the region is something we should all expect and the three local airports are major regional destinations." [i]
Since you bought up the definition of a world class public transit system, a world class one should have frequent service to 90% of the population withing say one quarter mile in the urban core. Washington does not do that because many routes are at 30 minute frequencies outside the peak. So, again I state that would be a higher priority and when that's accomplished we can talk about providing service to one airport 15 miles from the core and another 20 miles from the core. Until then lets just agree to disagree.
by Dharm on Dec 31, 2009 1:24 pm • link • report
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