I think residents in the area are entitled to a variety of amenities, and there are plenty of people who would benefit from having a Costco in the area. It may not be the most fashionable chain, but it's a good amenity even for residents who otherwise live transit-oriented lifestyles. Somehow, I think that if this were a more high-end big box chain like Wegman's we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As for Costco somehow being incompatible with new urbanist development, it seems to work fine in Pentagon City. Plenty of people combine a trip to Costco with trips to the other stores in the area. Some people even walk there or take Metro. Not all Costco purchases require a car to transport.

Good urbanism involves a mix of land uses, and while we should encourage walkable development big-box stores do offer useful amenities and there is a place for them.

by Phil on Jan 20, 2010 11:26 am • link • report

I have few problems with Costco deciding to buy land and invest at a new location. I have a serious problem saying it's worth a $4 million subsidy from the county. If the county has $4 million sitting around to improve economic development in Wheaton, can't they think of any better use than giving it all to a single, large, store?

by Dan on Jan 20, 2010 11:33 am • link • report

Given how Montgomery County has been very hostile towards big-box chains, exiling them to transit-sparse areas (Germantown or White Oak) when possible, a move like this is a nice bone to throw to the people in the southern end of the county. It also provides a nice revenue generator for the county as it would keep money inside Montgomery County and would draw shoppers in from other areas. Living in Silver Spring, I'd be more likely to join Costco if the closest one was in Wheaton than in Pentagon City.

A hypothetical Wegmans in Wheaton would've done gangbusters, however Wegmans and transit seem to not go together outside of Rochester/Buffalo (where they're everywhere) and Hunt Valley. There's also the matter that Doug Duncan banned Wegmans based on size and a stack of UFCW money; that only went away when Ike Leggett saw that millions of tax revenue would drift to Fairfax/Frederick/PG/Howard/Loudoun counties if they didn't let Wegmans in.

by Jason on Jan 20, 2010 11:34 am • link • report

Im with Phil on this one

by w on Jan 20, 2010 11:35 am • link • report

@Phil,

Big box stores can indeed mix with walkable areas, but that of course is a matter of design - and this particular design doesn't do that at all.

DC USA isn't anything special in terms of aesthetics, but it gets the basics right for walkable Big Boxes - the box is either buried or elevated (elevated in the case of DCUSA) with the larger footprint Target and Best Buy on the second floor, allowing for smaller storefronts to face the street. Another example is "burying" the box within a larger footprint building and having multiple storefronts facing the street, but without the need to change levels (the Safeway at City Vista is a pretty good example of this). The Bed Bath and Beyond in Chinatown is an example of one that's literally buried, one level down.

So, that's about the design of the box. Of course, most retailers also adjust their product mix to meet their audience and customers - urban grocery stores, for example, target more for smaller and more frequent purchases, rather than larger and more infrequent ones. That's not what CostCo does, however.

This isn't to say that CostCo can't work in this place, but this particular design isn't all that encouraging - nor does CostCo have a solid history of working well in urban, walkable locations (unlike other big box retailers such as Target, Best Buy, etc).

by Alex B. on Jan 20, 2010 11:36 am • link • report

I agree with Phil. When I don't combine my Costco trip with one to Shoppers in Potomac Yards (I take a Zipcar on that trip because of the distance and the amount of stuff I buy), I take a bus down to the Costco in Pentagon City. I almost always stop in to check out what's new at Best Buy and walk around the Pentagon Row shops before I head to Costco. Similarly, when I visit the Pentagon Mall across the street, I sometimes duck in to Costco to see what's new in their electronics department (I'm kind of a gadget geek).

The complaints about people driving many miles to get to a Costco only to shop there and leave are valid only because there aren't that many Costcos around. In my experience, half of the license plates of cars parked in the Pentagon City Costco lot are from Maryland.

Also, I would love a Wegman's closer to me.

by Teo on Jan 20, 2010 11:40 am • link • report

The Costco in downtown Vancouver (across from their arena) has large condo tours on top. They didn't do much to activate the street frontage but it's not as bad as a strip mall style box with acres of surface parking.

by Paul on Jan 20, 2010 11:41 am • link • report

so many other things I'd rather see them spend 4 million on than this. If Costco wants to move in they can prepare they should prepare the site themselves.

They say they have no money, and yet somehow they have no problem finding 4 million when it comes to luring big-box developers. Where did that money come from in this economy anyway?

by Lee Watkins on Jan 20, 2010 11:47 am • link • report

Why are the jobs of dubious value? Costco pays its employees well, and offers good benefits.

by jcm on Jan 20, 2010 11:50 am • link • report

The Westfield Mall (old Wheaton Plaza) is dying.
It desperately needs revitalization.
I can remember when Woodies was at the proposed Costo site and Montgomery Wards was at the other end of the plaza.And there were TWO movie theaters in the mall, as well as a Howard Johnsons, Kresges and first rate bakery.
Now it's junky stores, a Macy's that has NO high-end goods a Target that has no high-end goods and a bunch of stalls selling junk.
Staples has gone belly up. The mall is in danger of becoming an increasingly abandoned property.
I say, "Welcome Costo!"

by nancy on Jan 20, 2010 11:52 am • link • report

Regarding the jobs, here's a link:

Pushing low prices, though, isn't what really sets Sinegal apart. He also has a habit, which sometimes irks stockholders and almost certainly annoys his competitors, of taking excellent care of his employees. Eighty-six percent of them get healthcare and benefits, even though half are part-timers, and the average wage is $19 an hour. And Costco hasn't had any layoffs in the recession.

From an employment standpoint, Costco is as good as retail gets.

by jcm on Jan 20, 2010 11:53 am • link • report

Between this and the Scorched-Earth Safeway in Tenleytown, it's as though retailers and planners are forget the good urban solutions that are available already. Obviously the corporation wants to cut costs, but the government shouldn't be subsidizing bad planning.

by Neil Flanagan on Jan 20, 2010 11:54 am • link • report

It is very confusing why the executive's office would propose spending $4 million subsidizing Costco while cutting RideOn service. If our county is so short on funds that the executive's office needs to propose cutting service, where are they getting the money for this proposed subsidy?

I have no problem with Costco. There are reasons why they are a successful business. I do have problems with putting a design that would make sense on a suburban strip in an historic town. If Costco wants to open up in Wheaton, fine. They should be made to use an urban-friendly design.

Finally, the county is one of the more lucrative markets in the country. Why would Costco need a subsidy? They need us more than we need them.

Moreover, what is with this administration and their tendency towards opacity?

by Cavan on Jan 20, 2010 11:58 am • link • report

I am close enough to here that I will use the store, and it is worth $4 million of taxes!

We need more Councilors who will bring development and growth to our Cuonty. Taht's why you should support Becky Wagner for election. The proof now is Doug Duncan supports her, and he is also for business! Visit her website at beckywagner.org.

by Sligo Crick Grrl on Jan 20, 2010 12:09 pm • link • report

I don't think anyone is against Costco, it is more about making sure that it integrates well with an area that should be all about density and pedestrians as it is so close to a Metro stop. Parking lots and giant blank walls will not create urban density that a site like this should have.

by NikolasM on Jan 20, 2010 12:38 pm • link • report

Historic town -- Wheaton! Cavan obviously doesn't know the history of the area.
The old Wheaton Plaza, one of the first malls (and maybe the first mall) in the area, was designed to be driven to.
That's the history of Westfield Mall.
White Flint and Montgomery Mall don't agonize about urbanism, and they are successful malls.
I'd like to see something higher end than Costco at the mall, but the main thing is to bring good stores back inot the plaza. It's become pathetic.
THe movie theaters have recently reopened at the mall and they have few if any theater goers. I expect the theaters will also close again.
We are in danger of having an abandoned, blighted area in Wheaton, which suffers from enough blight.

by nancy on Jan 20, 2010 12:40 pm • link • report

Can someone at GGW give the same sort of analysis to the Costco that Kwame Brown says in the WBJ is coming to Fort Lincoln in DC? Huge District subsidy, wetlands problems, no metro access.

by DC Too on Jan 20, 2010 12:41 pm • link • report

Nancy, the town has existed in some form since about 1860. Before that, it was a trading post for Bladensburg Pike (now University Blvd.) and Brookville Road/7th St. Pike (now Georgia Avenue) and Viers Mill Road. Those roads go back to Colonial times, maybe even older. Why do you think there is a gnarly organic street grid centered around the intersections of the three main through roads? Those small streets aren't there because of the mall. The mall was built there so it could draw shoppers from Silver Spring and also take advantage of being near enough to an existing town to have road access.

I agree with you that we need to maintain the balance between the mall and the town. Giving a $4 million subsidy to Costco won't do that. I am very troubled that the Leggett Administration is so speedy about giving money to Costco while doing nothing to expedite the rewriting of the Sector Plan. The revitalization of the town from the better zoning in the new Sector Plan will do far more for the small businesses that already exist.

The Leggett Administration is showing through its actions where its priorities lie and it's not pretty.

by Cavan on Jan 20, 2010 1:08 pm • link • report

agree with @jcm, costco pays their employees well, offers good benefits and provides employees with lots of opportunities to advance within the company, they are leaps and bound beyond a walmart or target.

by dan on Jan 20, 2010 1:25 pm • link • report

"Between this and the Scorched-Earth Safeway in Tenleytown, it's as though retailers and planners are forget the good urban solutions that are available already. Obviously the corporation wants to cut costs, but the government shouldn't be subsidizing bad planning."

This project is different from the Tenleytown Safeway. Tenleytown is much more central, so high-density development makes sense there. Wheaton is a suburb, so it is better suited to a mix of land uses.

I actually 100% agree that these subsidies shouldn't be a priority for the County, but the overall tone of the post suggests that a Costco shouldn't be there at all which I think is incorrect.

by Phil on Jan 20, 2010 1:38 pm • link • report

Phil, I agree they're different. All I'm saying is that the Safeway's design was not urban enough for its location, and neither is this project. I'd be less bothered by the subsidy if they made it less auto-centric.

by Neil Flanagan on Jan 20, 2010 2:10 pm • link • report

why doesn't the county use the $4 million towards Northrop Grumman or has it already given up on that?

by mark on Jan 20, 2010 2:26 pm • link • report

Costco and mixed use in an urban environment. Yes it can happen, well at least in:

Vancouver.
http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=10896

East Harlem
http://www.mg2.com/en-us/Show/Project.aspx?SectionID=1&ProjectID=188

Houston
http://swamplot.com/greenway-commons-gas-station-too/2008-03-05/

I have been in the one in Port Chester NY and if fits nicely into the mixed use development there.

Other big box stores in urban area:

http://www.speakupwinnipeg.com/blog/post.cfm/big-box-in-the-downtown

by RJ on Jan 20, 2010 2:41 pm • link • report

RJ .....i highly doubt the Costco they r proposing will look anything like that

by mark on Jan 20, 2010 3:13 pm • link • report

personally I dont care what they put into Wheaton Plaza as long as they do not build another lake of surface parking when they have a Metro station nearby. All of these suburban sites near Metro should be making use of their proximity to transit. DC should also be getting our own versions of big box and we should not be left out of retail options that suburbanites all get.

There is no reason in the world that buisnesses like Healthy Back Store, Wegmanns, Costco, etc., cannot open stores in the city- like they have done in NYC.

You do not need a sea of parking to have a successful business.

by w on Jan 20, 2010 3:41 pm • link • report

Just took a look at the site plan. So far as I can tell the site plan would actually REDUCE the current amount of parking and there would be direct access from Costco to the rest of the mall. This is hardly some horror "sea of parking" scenario.

by Phil on Jan 20, 2010 5:00 pm • link • report

Cavan, the town did not exist in the 1860s. What is now Wheaton was a crossroads with an inn-tavern and a few other structures. Most of the area was farmland, with the nearest community what would be called Kensington down the road.
And you miss my point.
Wheaton grew because of the automobile, which allowed it to become a commuter's town --that was way before the metro.
And Wheaton Plaza was created to serve the community and most people accessed it by car.
New urbanism is nice, but Wheaton is not a candidate for it.
Costco would help the plaza from becoming what Rockville mall has become.

by class on Jan 20, 2010 5:06 pm • link • report

Just one more comment on the updated post, which now says "But most of all, it's about whether promoting another big box surrounded by acres of parking with a gas station gets Wheaton closer to the kind of place it should be."

So far as I can tell, we already have a blighted suburban mall surrounded by acres of parking. (Don't know how blighted it really is, never been there, but some of the other commenters seem to think so). We're talking about putting in a new store with direct access to the rest of the mall that would bring in lots of new traffic. This store would reduce the total amount of available parking and make some of the current parking invisible from the street. (If I'm reading the schematic right the store would be on a deck above an indoor parking lot.) Seems like a net improvement to me.

Sure, maybe we should raze the entire mall and put in a clone of Market Common, but that would take a lot more than 6 million dollars in subsidies.

by Phil on Jan 20, 2010 5:07 pm • link • report

If the choice was between building walkable, transit-oriented development and Costco than I'd certainly take the former over the latter. But it's not. ItÂ’s between an empty parking lot and derelict department store and Costco. So, while IÂ’m no great fan of the place, IÂ’ll take Costco.

To be clear, the $4M is not going to Costco, it's going to Westfield to be put towards the $50 that will be required to accommodate the new stores. (2 other stores yet to be named are also part of this plan.) It's blackmail for sure, but it's a ransom that gets paid elsewhere in the county all the time so why not Wheaton?

In the short term Wheaton needs this and in the grand scheme of things $4M is not a ton of money. So I hope the council sees this. And 475 new decent jobs is nothing to sneeze at in this economy.

In the long term rezone the mall to CR Zone (as proposed in the new sector plan) so that down the road we can have this conversation again and it might be more than hypothetical that something human scale gets built.

And approve the Safeway plans to build in the downtown. Whether the Safeway/Patriot redevelopment happens will have much greater impact on the mom and pop stores downtown and the long term fate of Wheaton than this Costco sideshow.

by dave on Jan 20, 2010 5:14 pm • link • report

The mall has seen its heyday, and I am not just referring to this one. Rather than try to incorporate a Costco into that, they should try to incorporate it like some other poster's examples into a much more urbanized format. What happens when the rest of the mall dies anyways and a new Costco is stuck onto it? Make it part of a desirable development.

by NikolasM on Jan 20, 2010 5:30 pm • link • report

I haven't been to the Wheaton mall in ages. I just hope that the advent of the Wheaton Costco does NOT lead to the closing of the Beltsville Costco. I'm so sick of businesses avoiding Prince George's.

by Greenbelt Gal on Jan 20, 2010 5:41 pm • link • report

For an example of a Costco (and an IKEA, FWIW) well-integrated with public transport, look to Tokyo. In Shin-Misato there is a shopping mall with Costco and IKEA as anchors on either end. (IKEA is in the foreground, Costco in the background, and Shin-Misato Station is in the lower right.)

There are parking decks, of course, but no lots, and one can easily walk to any of the stores in the complex (although getting to IKEA requires walking around to the entrance on the opposite side from the station).

Why Montgomery County can't seem to encourage this sort of development -- without tax breaks to boot -- is a mystery.

by trainsintokyo on Jan 20, 2010 7:46 pm • link • report

$4M for a store that will have no trouble drawing people? Crazy. A Costco in Wheaton--great. It means more reason to visit my favorite Thai restaurants (more authentic than the overhyped ones in Arlington). Wheaton Plaza probably is not a good candidate for new urbanism, although they could do a few things to make the mall more friendly to metro users and the outparcel shopping more useful to the many walkers they already have. Costco would be a good replacement for the Hecht's space.

Wheaton almost entirely a product of GI bill housing. There's very little evidence of anything that predates the late 40s. A real hub would have remnants of much older development. Kensington would have been more of a pre-WWII hub because of being a railroad stop. That's what helped establish all the other old towns that developed into 'burbs like SS, Takoma, Rockville, G'berg.

by Rich on Jan 20, 2010 9:00 pm • link • report

Rich, it's great SOMEONE knows the history of Wheaton. It never had a city center. Walkability was never a part of Wheaton's plan.
It would be nice to have a walkable plaza or downtown area in Wheaton.
But the priority should be to save the mall. And Costco may help do that.

by nancy on Jan 20, 2010 9:41 pm • link • report

Yet another class act, as it were, from Nancy: bad urbanism is good for those other parts of Montgomery County, much as it is with the kinds of transit she won't tolerate in Chevy Chase.

Explain why people in Wheaton and Langley Park deserve "only" incrementally better, while Columbia Country Club and its neighbors will only accept "the best"?

by J.D. Hammond on Jan 20, 2010 9:47 pm • link • report

Hammond -- I live in Wheaton, and have for nearly 50 years.
I would like it to thrive like it did 30 years ago. But it is a town that was built on the automobile, unlike Chevy Chase.
I think it deserves MUCH better, but unless you tear it down and rebuild it to look like Bethesda, there's not much that can be done. Luring good retailers and restauranteurs is one thing that CAN be done. Sheesh.

by nancy on Jan 20, 2010 9:52 pm • link • report

The county estimates the FY 2011 budget gap at $600 million. And they're proposing $2 million in cuts to RideOn buses -- which people depend on to get to jobs they already have -- as part of $70 million in additional budget cuts for FY 2010.

So the immediate question is not whether Wheaton deserves, needs, or wants a Costco.

The immediate questions is whether the Costco (assuming it won't locate in Wheaton without county money) is more important than buses, police, libraries, environmental protection, social services, or any of the other things the county has decided it can no longer afford.

by Miriam on Jan 21, 2010 8:08 am • link • report

I live close to Wheaton Plaza- I challenge all of you development people to design a more walkable and transit friendly shopping with a Costo in it- without razing the entire thing- for 4 million bucks. I'm kinda FOR the Costco, since it's going in the footprint of a closed store, but I'm against them having a gas station so close to a neighborhood. The parking and driving around there will already be a total mess without adding a gas station. The environmental hazards are a potential nightmare as well.

Wheaton Plaza is an interest place. It's often full of shoppers- but I'm usually the only white person walking the aisles. I generally only see other white people at the Target. You'd think you were far away from suburan MoCo. Has Wheaton really become so non-white- or do the locals not shop at the Plaza anymore? It'll be curious to see the 2010 census data.

by Tom Aloisi on Jan 21, 2010 8:58 am • link • report

@Greenbelt Gal: By sheer distance alone, I would think the Beltsville Costco would stay open as it has its pull from far northern PG County and parts of Anne Arundel and Howard counties. However, is there proof of "businesses leaving Prince George's"? I would say that the Ikea in College Park, the Walmart in Landover, the entirety of National Harbor, and the forthcoming Wegmans in Landover are proof of businesses coming, not going, from Prince George's.

If anything, Prince George's was a major beneficiary of Doug Duncan's middle finger to big boxes as they got development Montgomery either wouldn't allow or would only allow in certain areas.

by Jason on Jan 21, 2010 10:12 am • link • report

Nancy, are you familiar with the plans for the updated Sector Plan? Have you seen the clear urbanism there? If it's so unwalkable, why is there a human-scale streetgrid. I do know about how most of the buildings there date back to the 1950's. It's clear that it was a farming crossroads before early suburbia enveloped it.

Yet, there is no reason why we have to think of it in terms of the 1990 Sector Plan that locked its 1950's form into place until now. It is undeniable that there is a streetgrid in our town just like in Silver Spring and Bethesda. The only difference is the zoning. Wheaton is not an edge city like Aspen Hill or U.S. 1 in Beltsville. Wheaton is a traditional human-scale town that was eveloped by suburbia back in the 1950's.

We also have a Metro station and a lot of bus routes coming through. We have all the ingredients to being every bit as vibrant as Silver Spring (although a little smaller) except a Sector Plan that makes sense.

Just to bolster my assertions, I moved to Wheaton so I could walk to everything. I do. I walk to the coffee shop, the liquor store, the CVS, the Cleaners, the mall, the Metro, etc. It has FAR's of approximately 0.7... just barely within Leinburger's guidelines for walkable places. It is clearly a town whose zoning is inappropriate for its infrastructure. We don't need to perpetuate the mistakes of the 1990 sector plan.

by Cavan on Jan 21, 2010 10:37 am • link • report

"Wheaton Plaza is an interest place. It's often full of shoppers- but I'm usually the only white person walking the aisles. I generally only see other white people at the Target. You'd think you were far away from suburan MoCo. Has Wheaton really become so non-white- or do the locals not shop at the Plaza anymore? It'll be curious to see the 2010 census data."

You sound a little bit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3jBMooa0TM

by Phil on Jan 21, 2010 10:57 am • link • report

@Jason: It's not so much businesses "moving out" of Prince George's as not locating there in the first place. Trader Joe's, Chico's, World Market, CiCi's Pizza, Whole Foods -- these are NOT big-box stores, but they're not in Prince George's. There are others; these were the first to come to mind. On some "store locator" Web sites, there seems to be an invisible line down 16th Street -- many locations to the west, few or none to the east.

Yeah, we're getting a Wegman's -- but for how many years has Wegman's already been in Fairfax, Dulles, and Potomac?

by Greenbelt Gal on Jan 21, 2010 11:54 am • link • report

I'm glad you walk around Wheaton Cavan. But that's not the way the town was laid out, as you finally admit.
THere may be a way to make a pedestrian plaza in the triangle area. But the rest of Wheaton is going to remain a sprawl of strip malls and unplanned growth.
And then there's Westfield Plaza.
Unless you want to raze it, there has to be a reason for shoppers to go there.
Here's a bit of history. When Wheaton Plaza was vibrant, it offered a variety of low and high-end goods. Woodward and Lothrop catered to the middle and upper middle class in the area, as did some smaller shops.
But demographics have changed. The average income in Wheaton has dropped compared to other parts of the county.
To lure some of the higher-income residents of Kensington and Silver Spring to the mall (and yes, higher-income people like to take advantage of bargains at Costco) we'd need to get some better retailers in the plaza. I'd like to see Bloomingdales and Nordstrom come in, but that's not going to happen. (I have to shop at Montgomery Mall and WHite FLint to find the clothes and household products I like and that really depresses me because I live a stones-throw from Westfield Mall.)
In summation: All plans for new urbanism would fall apart if the mall becomes more blighted than it already has. And you can have both -- a walkable downtown AND a successful mall.)

by nancy on Jan 21, 2010 12:45 pm • link • report

No, I didn't admit the town is an edge city. Between Viers Mill Road and the townhouses east of the University/Georgia intersection it is most certainly not car-dependent. It has a connected streetgrid. That is a town.

The connected streetgrid provides a good foundation for a mixed-use zone. Note how there is no mention of a pedestrian plaza in the triangle area. A mixed-use human-scale town is not the same a pedestrian plaza. Once again, I reiterate that Wheaton east of Viers Mill Road has more in common with Silver Spring infrastructurally than it does with Aspen Hill. The human-scale streetgrid is there as is the transit. The proximity to transit means there is demand for urban housing. The only thing lacking is an appropriate Sector Plan.

As for the mall, I don't know how anyone can call it run-down. It was renovated in 2004! Most of the stores have locatoins in both Wheaton and in Westfield Montgomery. They're not different as they were before Westfield bought the place and renovated it.

Wheaton will not draw from Kensington for a while. Kensingtonians (on average) wouldn't be caught dead shopping in Wheaton for social rather than practical reasons. They desperately want to prove that they're Chevy Chaseish. I don't get it but that's the mindset from what I can tell. You could establish an indoor ski resort in Wheaton and Kensingtonians would still call it derogatory names.

How is the mall blighted? It doesn't have very many vacancies. It's filled with national mall-chain stores. It's clean. It's packed on weekends. I shop there all the time. (at my specific favorite stores, probably about 1/8 of my wardrobe is from there). Maybe it was blighted in 1998 but not now.

As for Bloomingdale's... you will only see that store either downtown (planned) or in the Favored Quarter. Here is the definition of the Favored Quarter. In fact, the Favored Quarter explains a lot of what you see. It's a product of suburbanization and car-dependence. The only way to diminish the differences between the Favored Quarter and everyone else is to have walkable urbanism. Silver Spring and Logan Circle are prime examples of how to use urbanism to foster a wide array of amenities outside the Favored Quarter. (neither is in the Favored Quarter)

Greenbelt Grrl, you might want to look at the Favored Quarter to see why so many chains don't open up in Prince George's. I'd also reference to political opacity on display when the county government courted DC United then voted against even studying the stadium. (yes, I'm a fan and I'm not saying that the stadium would have been magical for the county. I'm saying that the way they treated the team with all the political grandstanding and opacity has been quite a cautionary tale for any other prospective business. I'm sure that United is not the first or the last to receive this treatment.) The county's lack of vision for revitalizing its old urban cores and creating new towns on its Metro stations has also contributed to the lack of amenities.

by Cavan on Jan 21, 2010 5:12 pm • link • report

A mall is the antithesis of new urbanism...

by NikolasM on Jan 21, 2010 5:32 pm • link • report

Cavan, the area you described, between Viers Mill Road and the townhouses east of University/Georgia is mostly new construction. Historically, that section of Wheaton wasn't like that.
As far as the mall goes, it used to draw most shoppers from Kensington and quite a few from Silver Spring. The reason they, and I, don't shop there is the quality of the stores.
Macy's doesn't carry the designers and goods I seek. Clerks there always tell me to go to Montgomery Mall because the Wheaton store doesn't have the "high end" goods that most other Macy's do.
And most of the other shops at the mall are pathetic, its movie theater deserted (I attended a show there last weekend and was the only one in the room.)
THe mall was refurbished in 2004, but that did not attract good retailers.
Some on this blog have made mention of the high level of minorities. I love diversity (and am a minority myself) but minorities, because of they are perceived to have low incomes, don't attract good retailers.
The number of minority shoppers at Westfield Mall is the result of two things. ONe, a more diversified Wheaton.
The other is the influx of shoppers from low-income areas in the district that have no shopping plazas. These shoppers come to Westfield Mall using the metro, many have no cars, something that probably pleases you. Westfield Mall is the closest shopping area to many inner city people (although Silver Spring's revitalization is syphoning off some of these shoppers)
It is imperative to attract Kensingtonians and others to Westfield Mall to have a more diverse, and financially stable, customer base. Costco would help do that....
You have no idea of the mindset of the people in Kensington. They simply want stores and restaurants that meet their needs (just check out Nava Thai, a GOOD restaurant in Wheaton that is filled with Kensingtonians and hey, even people from Chevy Chase.)
By the way, I know about the sector plan and it's proposals to create more housing in an already congested area freaks me out....

by nancy on Jan 21, 2010 9:07 pm • link • report

@ Nancy

How is the mall dying; just because it does not cater to your taste "high-end goods" does not mean it doesn't cater to others. People go there for things other than Target or Macys, what about the shoe stores, clothing stores other than Macys or Target, Game store etc.

Macy's & Target are not high end stores; Macy's is probably on the top of mid range stores, I have been in store chains that make Macy's look like Walmart.

The Macy's probably doesn't sell high end goods because they don't sell there; they probably have the data from May Deparment Stores (Macy's purchased them) which Hechts was a chain that used to be there and could figure out what sold and what didn't sell and stock the stored according to that plus the trends of the area all stores do that before building new locations.

Go to any Bestbuy, Walmart, Sears, Kmart, Target, Footlocker, or Safeway you wont find the same things in all locations. Especially shoe stores and food stores they go by exclusively what is sold in the area and what is not thats why you don't see Kosher or Halal products stocked in all Safeway's or Giants and only certain ones, how often do you see New Balance or Adidas in Footlocker/Foot Action and other shoes stores they stock what the market/customers want if there was enough customers coming in to one particular store asking for something they would eventually stop it but if only 1,3 or 5 come for it it would not be worth the shelf space, storage space, time and marketing to make it viable.

People go to Target, Walmart, Kmarts etc because they are places where you can get a variety of items not just one type thats how they survive.

It may not suit taste but does it suit the taste of others yes otherwise there would be no one there you can see that in other malls that have closed in the past 15 years Landover Mall or malls that are kind of empty Lanmark Mall which people only go to for a few different stores, Sears, Footlocker etc.

by kk on Jan 22, 2010 4:51 am • link • report

@nancy

"By the way, I know about the sector plan and it's proposals to create more housing in an already congested area freaks me out...."

Remember, more stuff only equals more car traffic if the only way to get around within an area is in a car (think Aspen Hill or Rockville Pike between Grosvenor and downtown Rockville). In a town, people walk because it's more convenient to walk. It's about good urban design. For example, downtown Silver Spring has seen a remarkable increase in activity and vitality these past five years yet its traffic has stayed the same. That's because it's in a walkable urban format where it's more convenient to take transit and walk around or maybe park the car and then walk around. No one uses the car to get from place to place within Silver Spring because it's laid out in a traditional town format that is more convenient for walking. Hence, no increase in automobile traffic.

Wheaton is/will be the same way. The Sector Plan will bring about a negligable increase in automobile traffic. Mark my words.

by Cavan on Jan 22, 2010 9:40 am • link • report

Sigh, KK, I don't know how to make you understand my point, but I'll try again.
Wheaton Plaza used to sell high end good, at its now defunct Woodies and other stores, and attract higher income shoppers. Those higher income shoppers keep a mall alive and thriving.
Now there are few higher income shoppers.
Macy's can be either high end (thing of its flagship store in New York) or low end -- Westfield Mall's facility is an example of this.
Macy's in Westfield Mall caters to its current clientel, and has no good that higher income people want. But other Macy's do.
For example Westfield Mall's store has:
no Chanel cosmetics (or other premium cosmetics)
no high-end jeans (Seven and other brand)
no high-end shoes (Ferregamos and a variety of other brands)
no resortwear
no Coach bags or shoes
the list goes on. But other Macy's do have these goods.
ONCE AGAIN -- We need to bring higher-income shoppers to Westfield Mall to keep it alive. ANd, whatever you urbanists may think, the mall is the heart of Wheaton. Always has been.
Young Cavan, I'm not as concerned about automobile traffic -- Wheaton has a good traffic system -- as I am about human congestion. The sector plan call for more housing, including lots of apartments -- that would choke an area that was planned for single family homes.
Silver Spring was designed from the beginning for walkablilty -- god, I'm beginning to hate that word. WHeaton was not.
Silver Spring suffered a decline when high-income shoppers abandoned it for Rockville Pike, Mongtomery Mall, Friendship Heights and other suburban shopping meccas.
WHeaton is now undergoing a similar decline...

by nancy on Jan 22, 2010 11:41 am • link • report

@nancy

Don't want to gang up on you but, MD Politics watch dug this up:

"The conventional wisdom that Westfield Wheaton is an underperforming mall is untrue. In fact, Wheaton is one of WestfieldÂ’s most profitable malls in the U.S. According to WestfieldÂ’s last filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission" link

I think you're digging yourself a deeper hole with all this talk of Coach bags and such. I don't think the county council should concern itself with who the mall caters to. But it should want to make the mall successful in terms of employment. The 475 new jobs at Costco is worth the $4M as I see it. If the council can spend $89M on a parking garage in Bethsda Row it can spend $4M to facilitate this Costco in Wheaton. It seems undeniable that having that Hechts site sit empty for another 4 years would not be good for Wheaton.

As for the assertion that Wheaton was planned for single family homes and therefore should always be that way, this seems like a strange case to make. If it's not traffic you're worried about then what exactly is it?

As for Wheaton undergoing a similar decline to SS during its hard times—you couldn't be more wrong. Look at the redevelopment projects that have already been built or proposed. This is not what decline looks like.

by dave on Jan 22, 2010 12:02 pm • link • report

Dave, I can only think that Westfield Mall is profitable because retail rent there is the cheapest in the county. I guess you can sell pictures of Jesus and Che Guevara shirts and make money there.
But look at all its shuttered stores.
My point is that it's very sad Westfield Mall doesn't have the stores or goods to serve the community any more -- which historically included Kensington and parts of Silver Spring. That's why the theater will probably close again --for good this time -- and other retailers will leave.
Coach bags may seem trivial, but good quality, expensive goods, that have a profit marging retailers love, is what the greater community wants, the community Wheaton Plaza USED to serve.
And once again, it's not traffic I'm worried about, its human congestion. SEctor plan reminds me of some unplanned growth during the Til Hazel days of Northern Virginia.
Keeping housing stock growth reasonable is not a strange case to make. A thriving community requires property prices to remain stable, not plunge from an oversupply of cheap housing.

by nancy on Jan 22, 2010 12:14 pm • link • report

Nancy, it's not that it's been profitable for the retailers because of cheap rent—it's been profitable for Westfield!

I too am a homeowner in Wheaton. And I too shop at Montgomery Mall and Whiteflint from time to time b/c there are things I can't find at Wheaton. But that doesn't really bother me. And a Costco at Wheaton Plaza would bring me there more often.

We are not going to return to a Wheaton of yesteryear—it's just not going to happen. The idea that a redeveloped and denser downtown will bring down home prices is wrong in my opinion. Look at your example of SS. A rebuilt, walkable, denser downtown Wheaton will bring more of the affluent shoppers you seem to want at the mall and a better price for your single family home. I'm sure of it.

by dave on Jan 22, 2010 12:33 pm • link • report

Dave, I agree Costo might bring in some local shoppers that now shun the mall.
But why can't the mall return to it's past glory? Why can't it become what it once was and serve the community again? All that's needed is to bring in some good retailers -- which may encourage Macy's to upgrade its stock.
Once again, Silver Spring was designed differently from Wheaton.
And building a "walkable, denser downtown" where there never was one is not going to bring in good restaurants and retailers (like there is in Silver Spring.)
Nor are there plans to create a AFI in Wheaton, or bring in the Discovery Channel. So the kind of downtown you dream of -- just like Silver SPring! -- is a pipedream.
The priority should be to fix the mall. Not to help stabilize the price of my home(s) but to serve the greater community so you and thousands of people who live down the block from Westfield Mall don't have to go to WHite Flint or Montgomery Mall.

by nancy on Jan 22, 2010 12:46 pm • link • report

I am dissapointed about the location. I believe a Costco should have anchored a new power center in Burtonsville, drawing traffic to that commerical area and that the Wheaton JCPenny should have been redeveloped to extend the mall to Downtown Wheaton. With this proposal, neither of these are possible.

This will be Montgomery County's second Costco (the Germantown one is currently on hold). Instead of making the trek to Gaithersburg or Beltsville, central/eastern MoCo will have its own Costco. Here are some reasons we need another Costco:
1. Sales tax revenues will stay in Montgomery County
2. There will be less pollution from members driving to far away locations in Beltsville
3. Costco is a major supplier to many small businesses and will integrate well into Wheaton's small business community
4. A major attraction at Wheaton Plaza will spill off to the surrounding mall and downtown
5. Metro-accessible location. The only other Costco in the region that is so is Pentagon City
6. Costco's samples and food services do not compete with Wheaton's ethinc cusine establishments
7. People from Silver Spring, Bethesda, Rockville, Olney who who little of Wheaton will be introduced to its diverse flavor of restaurants, many of which cater to a very limited population.

Face it, if Ikea was being offered the $4 million, many of you would support it. But when an successful American corporations comes in, anti-growth groups savor to kill it.

by Cyrus on Jan 22, 2010 2:18 pm • link • report

Nancy, when you talked about store selection in Wheaton vs. Montgomery and what it was in 1964, why did you completely ignore my link to the definition of the Favored Quarter? Just because I'm 28 does not mean that I'm uneducated about urban economics.

by Cavan on Jan 22, 2010 10:12 pm • link • report

Cavan, the concept of favored quarter doesn't have anything to do with your ideas of making a "walkable" Wheaton.
Your idea is a good one. But isn't feasible unless the mall is revitalized and more affluent people decide to shop and eat in Wheaton.
Favored quarter refers to a much greater area. Wheaton was part of Washington's favored quarter, drawing residents and businessowners who fled Washington's 7th street corridor in the 50s because of an increasing black population in the district.
That's why Wheaton has a good road system and the first mall in the metropolitan area. It was part of the favored quarter.
What Wheaton has lost is its afluent people. Those need to come back.
By the way, I never criticized your knowledge of urban affairs. But I deduced that your are young because of your lack of knowledge about Wheaton's history.

by Nancy on Jan 23, 2010 9:50 am • link • report