Breakfast links: Moving outside the Beltway

by David Alpert • February 3, 2010 9:27 am

Photo by squidpants.

Devil's bill dies: The aptly-numbered Virginia House Bill #666, to require half of all VA transportation bonds to go to new highway construction (not maintenance) died yesterday. The terrible bill to require building a western outer Beltway passed the transportation committee. (BeyondDC)

Driver kills two: Two drivers hit each other in a minor fender bender near Adelphi, but while exchanging insurance info, another driver crashed into them both, killing them. According to one witness, her headlights were off (it was 10:45 pm). Note how the article says the two men "crashed into each other," but then the SUV "approached and hit both men." (Post)

Sprawlwater regulations?: Jim Smith, County Executive for Baltimore County, says new stormwater regulations could damage Smart Growth by making dense infill more difficult than building on open space. (Baltimore Sum, Stanton Park)

A denser Columbia: Howard County has approved a redevelopment plan for downtown Columbia, which would fill in the mall's parking lots to create a walkable downtown. (Baltimore Sun, Stanton Park)

Even more VRE: VRE is adding capacity, thanks to a new storage track at L'Enfant. They'll add cars to several trains and a new express train from Fredericksburg. (mcs)

MARC boarding now less convenient?: MARC riders will now have to wait in the gate areas at Union Station to board trains, like Amtrak passengers do. Commenters worry there's not nearly enough room. (Get There)

Surprise, we're building: Alexandria leaders were surprised to find out about two large development plans approved just over the Fairfax border (not around Metro). (Examiner)

Have a tip for the links? Submit it here.

75 comments

Tags: links

David Alpert is the Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Greater Greater Washington and Greater Greater Education. He worked as a Product Manager for Google for six years and has lived in the Boston, San Francisco, and New York metro areas in addition to Washington, DC. He loves the area which is, in many ways, greater than those others, and wants to see it become even greater.

Comments
Add a comment »

The people complaining about the new MARC boarding are just whining, the new process is awesome. Particularly nice is the fact that they're finally going to enforce the "stay inside the station until a track is posted" rule so that people can actually get to their trains that have been posted.

by Ryan S on Feb 3, 2010 10:07 am • link • report

Dear Alexandria,

Bookmark the follwoing:
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpz/comprehensiveplan/

by RJ on Feb 3, 2010 10:14 am • link • report

@ MARC: No wonder Americans don't like riding the train. Getting on board is about as much a hassle as getting on a plane. As far as I know, America is the only country being so difficult about boarding a train. In the UK, Netherlands, Belgium and Germany, getting on a trains is just as easier than getting on metro. Easier because there are no turnstyles checking your ticket before entering the train.

@ Route 666: Can we please start a movement to get Rt 28 north of I-66 recognized as a spur of I-66? The place is pretty much up to Interstate specs. Can we please please, pretty please name it I-666? Please? If VA-666 exists, there can be no religious objection.

@ Western Beltway. Stop whining about the Western Beltway. it exists. It's called the Fairfax County Parkway. The missing link is being finished quickly with nice stimulus dollars. It will alleviate congestion in Springfield.

I agree that we don't need more Beltways. What we do need is a road that takes all long-distance traffic (i.e. NJ/NY to FL traffic) of of I-495.

The logical way to do that would be to extend I-97 over US-301 to Fredericksburg. Signs at both ends should make it clear that long-distance travel should not follow I-95, but I-97.
Coming North, it should say:
I-95N to Washington, I-66, I-495 and I-270
I-97N to Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, I-83, points north.

Coming South, signs should read:
I-95S to Washington, I-66, I-495 and I-270
I-97S to Annapolis, Richmond, Norfolk, I-64, I-85, points south.

A second choice would be to upgrade US-17 to US-15 from Fredrickburg to Frederick and then dump long distance traffic on I-70 to Baltimore. However, the latter route would probably be too long to be used by truckers and snow birds.

Unfortunately, politics do not work logically, and we'll end up with another useless highway sucking up much needed transit money.

@ Alexandria: Alexandria should ask itself if it ever bothered to tell Fairfax about the development of the Carlyle area around the USPTO, which is on the border of Fairfax and caused massive congestion and a massive overhaul of I-495, which is only for a very short stretch in Alexandria (only the last mile or so).

by Jasper on Feb 3, 2010 10:56 am • link • report

Jasper, I think under Interstate numbering conventions that spur would begin with an odd number (e.g., 395 in DC and 195 in Balt.) Circumferential/bypass highways bear an even-number prefix (495, balt: 695).

And even if it were to be part of an outer beltway it would be more properly numbered 695 or 895.

by ah on Feb 3, 2010 11:02 am • link • report

The Virginia West-Washington Bypass bill does not refer to the Fairfax County Parkway. It refers to new limited access *tollway* with interchanges only at Interstates, no more than three primary highways, and access to Dulles Airport.

An interesting provision in the bill as amended yesterday in committee is that: "No such bypass shall be constructed unless and until a corresponding facility has been constructed or is in progress in the State of Maryland and is available to be linked to the Virginia facility."

That would mean that even if the bill passes the legislature, the ball is in Maryland's court. With affluent suburbs in the way, it is unlikely any Free State politicians are going to risk building a Freeway though Western Montgomery.

by Matt Johnson on Feb 3, 2010 11:04 am • link • report

Oh, and as a national highway it might meet the same objections as US 666 (RIP):

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/us666.cfm

by ah on Feb 3, 2010 11:09 am • link • report

Jasper, I agree with your suggestion to extend I-97 south to around Fredericksburg. It certainly seems the most logical solution. Too bad politics often don't involve any logic. Of course this will likely lead to even further sprawl. Perhaps you can build it as an extremely limited access highway or something?

by NikolasM on Feb 3, 2010 11:11 am • link • report

The thing with extending 301 or 97 is that you would have to not allow any development around those roads. Development like Tysons at 495 or even Reston on the Parkway make everything backed up. I wouldn't mind seeing 301 built up to interstate standards but only if the disallowed any major new development.

by Canaan on Feb 3, 2010 11:21 am • link • report

Your headline, "Driver kills two" is unclear. Was it an Elin Woods thing...running around brandishing an evil golf club, that then escaped her grasp and murdered two innocents?

Seriously, you guys get way too much of a kick out of rewording news stories to ensure that drivers get the blame for accidents. In this case, it sounds like the collision is the fault of the driver. But in other cases, just because a cyclist is injured in an incident with a car, it's not automatically the driver who's at fault. I mean, there are some crazy dipshits biking around DC (NOT most cyclists -- but the couriers who make a living on two wheels routinely ignore right-of-way and traffic signals...which is much more reckless than a driver cautiously operating a big motor vehicle who might do DC the service of accidentally smooshing a bike courier now and then.)

by indiecognition on Feb 3, 2010 11:24 am • link • report

Who said anything about fault? When the police shoot and kill an armed suspect, the story is, "Police kill armed suspect." That doesn't mean the officers are going to jail. But they still were holding the guns. We don't say "Police guns kill armed suspect."

by David Alpert on Feb 3, 2010 11:28 am • link • report

yeah, what David Alpert said.
Regarding stormawater regs for MD: Jim Smith the county exec is BSing. There are plenty of available technologies to allow building densly with permeable surfaces. In fact that ability was one of the reasons the bill got written and sponsored. Smith must be getting $ from developers who are howling about this bill.

by Bianchi on Feb 3, 2010 11:41 am • link • report

@Dave

So I'm guessing that you'll faithfully categorize bus drivers and Metro operators as killers every time one of the machines in their operation and dominion strikes and kills someone?

by MPC on Feb 3, 2010 11:50 am • link • report

I take back what I said about Jim Smith. I don't know anything about him except the editorial I just read. He sounds reasonable and thoughtful and like a supporter of density. And I agree with him that density and protecting the bay can work together. And maybe the current bill can be tweaked.

However, its (the stormwater bill) goal is important and making a retrofitted project "cost prohibitive" sounds like developer isn't willing to forgo some profit for the sake of better treatment of storm runoff.

by Bianchi on Feb 3, 2010 12:01 pm • link • report

MPC: Yes, I've written "bus driver hits cyclist" and the like in the past as well.

Again, this isn't about categorizing anyone as "a killer." The driver was just operating a machine, and killed some people in the course of doing it.

by David Alpert on Feb 3, 2010 12:06 pm • link • report

Guns, last time I checked, aren't vehicles...their sole purpose is to cause physical damage to faces and stuff. Vehicles are usually operated so as to avoid harming others if at all possible.

But yes, if said police officer was somehow straddling his gun and riding it around town, and then collided with a cyclist suspected of a crime...then the headline probably should read "Police gun kills suspect." Maybe, with a big ass gun, that's where the term "crotch rocket" comes from.

That said, a cop intentionally shooting someone dead has agency over the decision and action to kill. But you shouldn't assign agency or fault for a crash to a driver who is obeying traffic laws and regulations, if his vehicle collides with a cyclist who is biking around like a maniac. "Cop kills suspect" describes the action of the police officer, but "Driver kills douchebag" is inaccurate if it was the douchebag's own fault for endangering himself and the driver by darting his bike in front of a vehicle.

And NO, I'm not serious. But I do take much more issue with the decision to bike recklessly than I do with the decision to drive cautiously. Accidents are often avoidable, but almost never intentional. Shootings are intentional, and their circumstances might demand different headline wording than for a vehicular collision. And it's not so nice to equate drivers with gunmen.

by indiecognition on Feb 3, 2010 12:11 pm • link • report

Of course it is about making out someone to be a killer.

A killer is someone who kills, or ends a life. I don't see why you're tiptoeing around the word.

by MPC on Feb 3, 2010 12:16 pm • link • report

MPC: Yes, there are negligent, irresponsible drivers and it is good to call them out. However, many more of us drivers take our privilege seriously and would be emotionally shattered if we caused the death of another with our vehicle. Simply calling someone a "killer" for unintentionally hitting a pedestrian regardless of the circumstances is just a way of trying to draw attention to people who, if they are not sociopaths, already will have to carry around a lifetime of unspeakable guilt. If they're negligent and there is justifiable cause to prosecute that's one thing. Otherwise, simply labelling these unfortunate drivers "killers" is just piling on to score political points about the supposed evils of personal vehicles. It's cheap, inflammatory and doesn't contribute to the larger discussion. In fact, it can people off in the manner PETA's more extreme publicity tactics can turn potentially sympathetic people away from the larger animal rights movement.

by Mike on Feb 3, 2010 1:26 pm • link • report

@Jasper Please don't call the Fairfax County Parkway the Western Beltway. Traffic on the parkway is already bad, especially in the West Springfield/Burke and Fair Lakes Pkwy / US 50 areas. These areas have several at-grade intersections that slow everything down terribly. Too bad there wasn't a bus/trasit option for commuting Lorton to Reston?

by BigG on Feb 3, 2010 1:28 pm • link • report

However, many more of us drivers take our privilege seriously

I hate how entitled 'motorists' come across. I mean all they usually are are 'anti' neighbors who cling to their isolated suburban sprawlish ways while trying to get us to subsidize their environmentally unfriendly automotive ways.

we should build tracks for expanded rail service through the backyards of their precious little suburban estates and watch them squeal :)

by MPC on Feb 3, 2010 1:35 pm • link • report

Extending I-95 through DC as I have proposed would be infiintley more sensible than prioritizing outer beltways.

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2007/09/washington-dc-big-dig.html

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2008/12/under-selling-b-metropolitan-branch.html

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2007/11/i-395-extension-superior-option.html

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2009/05/telling-deletion.html

We must not let the tail -- CUA and Masonic Eastern Star - continue to wag the dog. We need a law suit against this failure to share the burden.

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 2:09 pm • link • report

Semantics about "killer" versus "driver" aside ... I have been a member of a church on MD Route 212 (though not that close to the crash site) for over a decade now, and I can attest that people drive like maniacs over the two-lane stretches. Those stretches have few turn lanes, few sidewalks and narrow shoulders, and people drive well over the speed limit. It's supposed to be a secondary road, not the ICC! I'm surprised that more people aren't rear-ended when turning into the parking lots or side streets along that road.

by Greenbelt Gal on Feb 3, 2010 2:27 pm • link • report

Douglas, I would much rather have all the through traffic stay away from the Beltway et al... We get them out of the picture and there would be plenty of space on the local highways as is.

by NikolasM on Feb 3, 2010 2:57 pm • link • report

Re: NOVA's Western Bypass

The need for another interstate-grade road connecting Maryland and Virginia has been bandied about for more than 20 years. Back in the late 1980s, one of the plans for the so-called Western Bypass had it passing through (or closely nearby) my grandmother's property in the Luckett's area of Loudoun County. She wasn't particularly pleased. But it never came to be, and, even with this new VA legislation (which, I might add, may not even find the votes to pass), the road isn't likely to come into being anytime soon.

But, eventually--yes, indeed!--another highway and bridge between the American Legion Bridge and Point of Rocks will be built. This "eventually," however, is probably decades away. The crucial factor is population growth, and, as we all readily know, the Washington region continues to rapidly grow. Since the 1980s, each additional decade has brought about 1 million new residents to the area. Cities and suburban areas alike throughout the region will undoubtedly see steady substantial growth. Reston and Herdon on the Virginia side, and Rockville and Gaithersburg in Maryland, will only become larger centers of commerce and housing. Traffic volume and congestion, to be sure, is bound to only get worse, leading road proponents to again move forward with a Western Bypass plan. At some point, residents on both sides of the river may become more receptive to the idea. When this "receptiveness" might occur is challenging to predict. To some extent the region's development patterns will play a meaningful role. If more jobs are created in Virginia than Maryland over the next 20 years (very likely), and more people begin to commute from MD to VA, the desire for a new Potomac crossing will once again come to the forefront, only this time with much more energy and vigor.

It was mentioned earlier that the Fairfax County Parkway can be considered a Western Bypass. While this is plausible, it seems that Route 28 is the more appropriate candidate for the appellation. If an extension of any road in VA is to cross the Potomac, it will probably be Route 28. At it now stands, Route 28 is a limited access highway with only one traffic major light (Braddock/Walney Road) along the stretch of road between I-66 and Route 7. It is the logical, most practical road to be extended across the Potomac. Of course, many residents on the opposite side of the river are dead set across any new river crossing. But times change. Twenty or 30 years down the road (no pun intended) a lot of folks may be thinking otherwise.

by Anonymous on Feb 3, 2010 2:57 pm • link • report

Failing to complete DC I-95 keeps that traffic on the Beltway.

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 3:08 pm • link • report

@MPC
I'm all for more train and light rail tracks, and other public transit. But there are lots of areas that are un/underserved by public transit -- and DC does a particularly poor job of running public transit 24-7. So yeah, we should build more public transit...but for the next 10-20 years at least, cars will be necessary for some.

Cities should work in mixed-use development, livability issues, and public transit at a higher priority vehicular access...but abandoning cars altogether cuts cities off from the surrounding areas that support them. Again, in a perfect world, public transit would work for most people in most places -- but we're far from that day of 24-7 light rail and subways that spoke out through suburbs, exurbs, and nearby urban areas; trans-regional high-speed rail, and walkable cities and neighborhoods all around.

by indiecognition on Feb 3, 2010 3:13 pm • link • report

@Douglas Re: "Failing to complete DC I-95 keeps that traffic on the Beltway."

There's a well-known alternative to avoiding the Beltway when traveling along the I-95 corridor; it's called I-295/BWI Parkway, and it passes through DC.

by Anonymous on Feb 3, 2010 3:29 pm • link • report

"There's a well-known alternative to avoiding the Beltway when traveling along the I-95 corridor; it's called" The Train!

by Bianchi on Feb 3, 2010 3:35 pm • link • report

Trucks can use the BW Parkway?

Incidently the portion of 295 from Route 50 to the 11th Street Bridges is not I-295, is substandard hopefully to be improved, and is a way off center route with little to no service to most of DC.

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 3:37 pm • link • report

@ ah: I think under Interstate numbering conventions that spur would begin with an odd number (e.g., 395 in DC and 195 in Balt.)

There are more exceptions. Case and point: I-270. That's not circumferential, nor by-pass.

And even if it were to be part of an outer beltway it would be more properly numbered 695 or 895.

No can do. It doesn't intersect with I-95, nor I-495. Plus, if you extend it a bit south of I-66, it kinda goes around Manassas.

@ Matt J: Ah, they've written in the law that it will never be built. Great governance. Start the law suits over what it means for MD to have a "corresponding facility". BTW have I ever said that toll roads are bad?

@ NikolasM: Of course this will likely lead to even further sprawl.

Not if you build it with few entries and exits. But then again, it would need decent leadership in PG County to uphold any rules on outlawed development, and we know how that will go.

@ Canaan: I wouldn't mind seeing 301 built up to interstate standards but only if the disallowed any major new development.

Well, don't worry. MD will never allow it anyway. They're too afraid they can't stop development themselves.

@ BigG: Please don't call the Fairfax County Parkway the Western Beltway.

Since when is congestion an argument against calling something a highway? In that case, we don't have highways around here.

Too bad there wasn't a bus/trasit option for commuting Lorton to Reston?

I am all for an extension of the blue line along 7100. It could switch to 123, hit Fairfax City and GMU and then hooko up to the orange and silver lines.
It was built as a second Beltway. But MD refused to connect it as they would have needed to build the bridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfax_County_Parkway

@ Douglas A W: Failing to complete DC I-95 keeps that traffic on the Beltway.

Yeah, cuz we really want all that traffic on I-395 and going under the Mall. Excellent idea. No congestion there ever!

by Jasper on Feb 3, 2010 3:37 pm • link • report

Better in a tunnel wheer it can and should be filtered.

More traffic on I-395, yes, but rebuild its underpowered connections with the SW Freeway and split some of the burden with paralel C/D/ tunnelways and a largely covered East Leg to East Capitol Street.

I approve of NCPC's basic plan for a SW Freeway undergrounding with a Fort Channel Tunnel, though with the extra capacity of the C/D lanes, perhaps via a parallel tunnel beneath G Street to 2nd and 3rd Streets. This link shows the NCPC plan:

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-i-395-gateway-if-its-coordinated.html

Also, do the north end of I-395 right:

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2007/11/i-395-extension-superior-option.html

The geometry at these junctions matters!

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 3:52 pm • link • report

"There's a well-known alternative to avoiding the Beltway when traveling along the I-95 corridor; it's called" The Train!

The government ought to consolidate such projects, for instance the Grand Arc Project creating the needed railways, highways and greenways that Washington, D.C. needs to be properly connected, along with the Virginia Avnue Railroad Tunnel that is about to be extensively reconstructed with no thought to lowering and covering the SW-SE Freeway.

Looking at the area behind Union Station it appears we have what can be expected from say a Covington & Burling railroad industry attorney!

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 3:56 pm • link • report

What percentage of the traffic on the beltway is through traffic? I'm just trying to get a sense of what the point is in this highway with very few on- or off-ramps just to divert people around DC...

Also, why should we build big new highways to promote inefficiently bringing people into the city center in single-occupancy vehicles?

by MLD on Feb 3, 2010 4:14 pm • link • report

The actual language of the story is:
"A 2005 Cadillac sport-utility vehicle driven by a 30-year-old Beltsville woman approached and hit both men and their parked vehicles."
It may not be perfect, but it definitely refers to the operator. Personally I'm not losing any sleep over trying to parse this one.

by Steve O on Feb 3, 2010 4:16 pm • link • report

by Canaan

-----------------------------------------------------------

So you are openly stating that you would prefer thaat Virginia continues to Successfully over Develop with Retail and Jobs while Maryland Continues to get deserted/Abandond with reduction or Employment Growth and Upscale Retail Growth.

If that ain't a sign of being anti-Maryland then July 4th is a New Years Holiday......

by Adam on Feb 3, 2010 4:23 pm • link • report

Extending I-95 through DC as I have proposed would be infiintley more sensible than prioritizing outer beltways.

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2007/09/washington-dc-big-dig.html

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2008/12/under-selling-b-metropolitan-branch.html

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2007/11/i-395-extension-superior-option.html

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2009/05/telling-deletion.html

We must not let the tail -- CUA and Masonic Eastern Star - continue to wag the dog. We need a law suit against this failure to share the burden.

by Douglas A. Willinger

-----------------------------------------------------------

Besides repeating yourself like a Broken Record just what are you doing to jump start a movement to penalizing these anti-Highway Groups of sabotaging Highway Building in DC and Maryland???????????

What are you going to do to get other Highway Supporters to Fiercly push the powers that be to get I-95/I-270 built through DCand Maryland and Build a new Bay Bridges between Central Maryland and the Maryland Eastern Shore????????????????????

by Adam on Feb 3, 2010 4:30 pm • link • report

MARC: No wonder Americans don't like riding the train. Getting on board is about as much a hassle as getting on a plane. As far as I know, America is the only country being so difficult about boarding a train.

I can state for a fact that, at busy times, passengers are not allowed to mill around the platforms at Oslo Central Station. If fact, you have to show a ticket to a security person before being let down to the platforms. I often find the security there stricter then what I find on Amtrak at Union Station, where one can easily walk directly from the Metro to the platforms, without being stopped (done it many, many times myself).

Besides, Americans love to fly, yet put up with security restrictions far more inconvenient than found at any train station.

I suspect that American's don't like taking trains because, unlike Europe, our cities are often spaced much farther apart, and our train system is horrible. Taking Amtrak outside of the NE Corridor is senseless, especially when a few minutes searching online will usually find you an airfare that is cheaper.

by urbaner on Feb 3, 2010 4:31 pm • link • report

by Greenbelt Gal

-----------------------------------------------------------

Well the Blame totally goes to the State for not Pushing the Widening of 212(at least 4 to 6 Lanes) after the Developers were allowed to SATURATE Housing Communities along MD Highway 212 from the 1960's up to 2000. They have bus routes zipping up and down that roadway and that doesn't relieve daily traffic along MD Highway 212.......

by Adam on Feb 3, 2010 4:34 pm • link • report

Douglas, I would much rather have all the through traffic stay away from the Beltway et al... We get them out of the picture and there would be plenty of space on the local highways as is.

by NikolasM

------------------------------------------------------------

Its obvious that you ignored his statements.......

He said that he supports building I-95 and I-270 through DC from Maryland which will take local DC aea Traffic away from the Beltway.........

Now building an Interstate Highway 25 Miles East of DC to Connect Interstate Highway Traffic between Richmond and Baltimore via Annapolis will ALSO help take a the Chunk of Traffic Off the Beltway..........

by Adam on Feb 3, 2010 4:39 pm • link • report

We don't like taking the train because we haven't invested in passenger rail since the 1930's...

by NikolasM on Feb 3, 2010 4:42 pm • link • report

Are you off your meds again?

by NikolasM on Feb 3, 2010 4:46 pm • link • report

@Douglas Re: "Failing to complete DC I-95 keeps that traffic on the Beltway."

There's a well-known alternative to avoiding the Beltway when traveling along the I-95 corridor; it's called I-295/BWI Parkway, and it passes through DC.

by Anonymous

------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking of the BW-Parkway; there is no Excuse for the state of Maryland not Pushing for the Parkway to be widen from its current Narrow 4 Lanes to at least 8 Lanes from the DC/MD Line to Laurel. They don't have to change its current "Chemical Trucks Prohibited" Law because there are several "No Trucks Allowed" Parkways that are 8 to 10 Lanes Wide.......

by Adam on Feb 3, 2010 4:48 pm • link • report

@Douglas "Trucks can use the BW Parkway?"

Unless trucks are actually venturing into DC for business, perhaps they should be banned altogether from passing through the city, if that is their only objective.

@Douglas "Incidently the portion of 295 from Route 50 to the 11th Street Bridges is not I-295, is substandard hopefully to be improved, and is a way off center route with little to no service to most of DC."

I brought up the I-295/Kenilworth/BW Parkway corridor because you suggested bringing a fancy, expanded I-95 through DC as a wonderful alternative to Beltway traffic woes. Is that really a feasible idea? Not in the least. Inner city traffic will almost always be congested to a certain degree, no matter how large the roads are, because that's where huge numbers of people work, visit cultural attractions, and call home. Add in considerable pass-through traffic, and it's a recipe for a never-ending traffic meltdown.

Moreover, freeways that cut through cities have been found time and again to be city killers, serving as barriers that choke off life in previously lively neighborhoods. The trend for at least 30 years has been to find alternatives. Boston, with its "Big Dig" project, put most of its major roads underground. San Francisco authorities, after the major 1989 earthquake, proceeded to tear down the elevated Embarcadero that ran along the waterfront.

Running freeways through cities, unless they're placed underground, just isn't going to happen anymore. Even dreaming about the other possibilities is a waste of brain power.

by Anonymous on Feb 3, 2010 4:54 pm • link • report

@ ah: I think under Interstate numbering conventions that spur would begin with an odd number (e.g., 395 in DC and 195 in Balt.)

There are more exceptions. Case and point: I-270. That's not circumferential, nor by-pass.

And even if it were to be part of an outer beltway it would be more properly numbered 695 or 895.

No can do. It doesn't intersect with I-95, nor I-495. Plus, if you extend it a bit south of I-66, it kinda goes around Manassas.

@ NikolasM: Of course this will likely lead to even further sprawl.

Not if you build it with few entries and exits. But then again, it would need decent leadership in PG County to uphold any rules on outlawed development, and we know how that will go.

@ Canaan: I wouldn't mind seeing 301 built up to interstate standards but only if the disallowed any major new development.

Well, don't worry. MD will never allow it anyway. They're too afraid they can't stop development themselves.

@ BigG: Please don't call the Fairfax County Parkway the Western Beltway.

Since when is congestion an argument against calling something a highway? In that case, we don't have highways around here.

Too bad there wasn't a bus/trasit option for commuting Lorton to Reston?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfax_County_Parkway

@ Douglas A W: Failing to complete DC I-95 keeps that traffic on the Beltway.

Yeah, cuz we really want all that traffic on I-395 and going under the Mall. Excellent idea. No congestion there ever!

by Jasper

------------------------------------------------------------

Just Wow; I am reading this picturing you getting jealous of the possibility that Suburban Maryland will one day Rival Northern Virginia's Massive/Outrageous Development Sprawling in which no one here is pointing out the Unessessary of Virginia building another Major Highway which will most likely accommodate/reward the the Sprawling Western Suburbs of Virginia....

Just the thought of Frederick County, Prince Georges County, and Charles County developing at the same rate as Fairfax County, Prince William County, and Loudon County is like a sign of defeat of Economic/Business Growth to Virginia Tax Payers......

by Adam on Feb 3, 2010 4:55 pm • link • report

Running freeways through cities, unless they're placed underground, just isn't going to happen anymore. Even dreaming about the other possibilities is a waste of brain power.

by Anonymous

------------------------------------------------------------

With all due respect please save the doom and gloom scare tactics.....

I used to live in Atlanta, Georgia with 4 Major Freeways passing through Downtown, Midtown, and Buckhead. The main Freeway was the I-85/75 Downtown Connector which has a Whoppin 14 Lanes. I have yet to hear about the Quality of Life in Downtown Atlanta being Tarnished due to the Massive Freeway Accesses throughout the Atlanta City Limits and their Suburbs.....

by Adam on Feb 3, 2010 5:00 pm • link • report

Why is someone copying and pasting my contributions? What's the purpose?

by Anonymous on Feb 3, 2010 5:15 pm • link • report

Running freeways through cities, unless they're placed underground, just isn't going to happen anymore. Even dreaming about the other possibilities is a waste of brain power.

---

Indeed, as my proposals would place them underground.

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 5:24 pm • link • report

Superhighways should not go through cities.

by NikolasM on Feb 3, 2010 5:59 pm • link • report

@ Canaan: "I wouldn't mind seeing 301 built up to interstate standards but only if the disallowed any major new development."

I tend to think Maryland's Highway 301 will be upgraded to near interstate standards in the not too distant future.

By the way, for those of you who believe I'm a big road-building supporter, please reconsider. I place a much higher value on transit, particularly heavy rail. Nevertheless, road building will continue on, but at a slower pace perhaps than previously. The culprit, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is population growth.

To give an example, the wonderful city of Tokyo has an incredible urban transit network. Today the Kanto region, comprised of Tokyo and its suburbs as well as neighboring city Yokohama, has a population of 35 million. While I don't presently have population density figures at hand, please accept my general assessment that it is a remarkable figure, to say the least. And yet, despite its compact density, the urban landscape of the region stretches out in every direction as far as the eye can see and beyond.

A region's population and and whether it is growing or not is the driving factor in both transit development as well as road building. People need to get around, whether they live in a locale that's suburban, rural, or urban. In the DC area, transit will continue to expand, but outer beltways will also eventually be built. As already touched upon, 301 is almost certain to be upgraded and expanded. And I-270 north of Germantown will see additional lanes. These things are going to happen, no ifs or buts. What the region most needs now, however, as does America itself, is a better balance in expenditures between transit and roads. On a positive note, at least as far as I am concerned, it's trending more toward transit.

by Anonymous on Feb 3, 2010 6:10 pm • link • report

That was said about railroads during much of the 1800s before they figured out subways, yet there are those that would rather stick their heads into the ground about urban highway feasibilities.

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 6:23 pm • link • report

Adam, I think you need to go back to school and work on your capitalization skills.

As for VRE, good on them! They seem to be the only transit operator in the region actually working to expand service rather than cut it. The express train also sounds interesting -- perhaps they can introduce another one for the evening rush at some point.

by wmata on Feb 3, 2010 7:48 pm • link • report

---

That idea, with only 3 lanes in each direction IIRC, was promoted but also stopped.

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2007/01/i-95-baltimore-washington-parkway_18.html

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 3, 2010 8:10 pm • link • report

Superhighways should not go through cities.

by NikolasM

------------------------------------------------------------

But SuperHighways go through Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, Houston, Miami, Philly, Boston, Chicago, LA, New York City, etc......

Just because your against it does not mean that it should never happen........

by Adam on Feb 4, 2010 2:04 am • link • report

---

That idea, with only 3 lanes in each direction IIRC, was promoted but also stopped.

http://wwwtripwithinthebeltway.blogspot.com/2007/01/i-95-baltimore-washington-parkway_18.html

by Douglas A. Willinger

------------------------------------------------------------

What does that have to do with today in which traffic has tripled since the 1970's????????

by Adam on Feb 4, 2010 2:10 am • link • report

@ Western Bypass -- A "vampire road" because it never dies. Despite study after study showing it doesn't relieve traffic on the Beltway, I-66 etc, the keep reviving it. Despite the "Techway" study that showed that the overwhelming majority of traffic was trying to move radially or from/to destinations near or inside the Beltway. Despite evidence it would fuel sprawl. AND THERE ARE MORE BILLS BEYOND HB666. HB277 would mandate it as a top priority and make it a toll road. This bill was modified to first require Md commitment to a bridge. HB779 would require a study of transportation needs in NOVA with a focus on evacuation of DC and new Potomac Bridges beyond the American Legion. Somehow outer Potomac Bridges would help evacuate DC! SB181 would allow the state DOT and other agencies to give away general fund tax dollars to Public Private Transportation Act builders. So if you build a sprawl highway we'll reward you with the increase in tax receipts. Sweet deal. More info to follow.

by Stewart Schwartz on Feb 4, 2010 7:22 am • link • report

Wow...a roadgeek-type conversation and I've been missing the whole thing. Time to jump in late...

Jasper/ah/et al: For 3-digit Interstate numbering, the preference is that if it has both termini at an Interstate, it be given an even first number. This is why I-270 is numbered as it is: its termini are at I-70 and the Beltway (I-495). There are, of course, exceptions to the rule (I-155 in Illinois is one such example), but this is FHWA and AASHTO's preference.

Giving Route 28 an Interstate designation would likely be some sort of odd I-x66 (so 666 wouldn't fly). However, any such Interstate designation would require VDOT to upgrade the interchange at I-66 plus get rid of the signals at both Braddock/Walney and the entrance to Ellanor Lawrence Park. And, of course, VDOT doesn't have the money for such.

MLD asked what percentage of Beltway traffic is through traffic. Don't have access to any Origin-Destination studies, but a ballpark guess is in the 15-20% range. Not much in the grand scheme of things, but enough to add to the need for the recent Springfield and WWB projects.

Agree with another poster that, optimally, a new bridge upriver from the American Legion bridge would tie into Route 28, even if it's just a 4-lane arterial bridge (which would be more politically swallowable than a 6-lane freeway-style bridge). Unfortunately, Loudoun County has allowed development to block any potential northern extension of Route 28. Same deal at the end of the Fairfax County Pkwy, plus any potential bridge there also has parks in the way. And both would require what would likely be UNpopular widening of surface roads on MoCo (namely parts of MD Route 28, Seneca Rd, and River Rd). So as much as it's needed, I just don't see it happening.

Agree with Jasper and Nik that the 301 corridor should be improved to entice some through traffic away from the Beltway. Existing traffic on 301 alone warrants some improvements to the corridor in Maryland. Problem here is that, due to local jurisdictions allowing development almost right up to the edge of the road (especially in PGC and Waldorf), it'll require some costly right-of-way. I could see SHA making spot improvements here and there, but nothing corridor-wide.

by Froggie on Feb 4, 2010 7:47 am • link • report

BTW, David, as was noted in last night's Alexandria Transportation Committee meeting, the two developments in Fairfax very near the Alexandria line ARE NOT APPROVED YET. They're still going through the zoning process. That said, there are concerns about spillover traffic and how they would affect Alexandria's ongoing study of the Beauregard corridor.

by Froggie on Feb 4, 2010 8:05 am • link • report

@Froggie, you mean the Alexandria Transportation Commission? I just want to make sure I have the right organization.

by Michael Perkins on Feb 4, 2010 8:15 am • link • report

@urbaner "I suspect that American's don't like taking trains because, unlike Europe, our cities are often spaced much farther apart, and our train system is horrible. "

Our cities aren't spaced that far apart. Yes, NYC to Chicago to L.A. is a very long way, but there's many cities that are within 200-500 miles. Look at the Amtrak Capitol Corridor (San Jose to Sacremento) or Cascadia, (Vancouver, BC to Eugene OR) or the Hiawatha (Milwaukee to Chicago). All heavily used routes.

FYI: I just read, "Waiting on a Train: The Embattled Future of Passenger Rail Service--A Year Spent Riding across America" by James Mccommons. Very enlightening about what works on Amtrak and what doesn't.

by BigG on Feb 4, 2010 9:58 am • link • report

In virtually every instance you give, those superhighways through a city are and were a mistake. The Germans learned quickly not to bring their autobahns into and through their cities. They end in Ring roads surrounding the towns. We unfortunately did not heed that lesson.

by NikolasM on Feb 4, 2010 11:11 am • link • report

@ Froggie: However, any such Interstate designation would require VDOT to upgrade the interchange at I-66 plus get rid of the signals at both Braddock/Walney and the entrance to Ellanor Lawrence Park. And, of course, VDOT doesn't have the money for such.

VDOT has been upgrading virtually all other intersections in the last year or so. If they want, they can find the money. Plus, wouldn't slapping on an I-666 sign get some Federal funding?

@ BigG: Not to forget the DC-Boston (Richmond-Portland) corridor. Plenty of urban centers.

I can not explain to Europeans that there is not an easy train connection between DC and Baltimore. Amsterdam and Rotterdam have 6-8 trains an hour. Amsterdam, Brussels and Paris once an hour. Hopping on a train to go see an Oriols game is pretty much not an option. In the Netherlands, Ajax, Feyenoord as well as PSV pretty much have their own train stations, designed specifically to accommodate the destructive scum that visits soccer games.

by Jasper on Feb 4, 2010 11:44 am • link • report

Michael: correct...mistake on my part there. It's the Commission (not Committee).

Japser: "slapping on an I-666 sign" would get some Federal funding for maintenance and upkeep, but the road would have to be already up to Interstate standards (or waiverable) before the Feds would accept it to the Interstate system. Hence why VDOT would have to eliminate the lights and upgrade the interchange at 66 first.

by Froggie on Feb 4, 2010 2:01 pm • link • report

Trains in the US is a f**king joke; have any of you who are discussing trains/railways been on a train outside of the east coast from DC to New York.

1 Amtrak has to compete with CSX and others

2 There are No Directly routes; if your trying to go from DC to anywhere south besides along the coast you will either be routed down to Florida and then taking a train going east-west or routed to Chicago and then a train going south.

I have taken the train from DC to Mississippi before and I went from DC to Maryland,Penn, West Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Tennessee and then Mississippi

All of the rail lines in the US are set up as the slowest way possible because they compete with highways (auto industry)

If you going somewhere other than direct north/south or east/west the train is the worst option you can take and is probably the slowest even compared to Greyhound.

I say we need highways for now and unless we can build railways/subways/lightrail etc radiating in all directions from the center of every city there will always be a need.

All subway lines don't need to go to the center of the city some could go due North/South or East/West instead of all the diversions

The rail system in the country is f**ked up; the transit systems in most cities are f**ked up also and there is no other way to put it.

If people dont want to build highways in cities that is fine but have a way to get people in and out of them fast meaning

wide enough streets

lots of transit options (rail/bus/subway/roads/bikelanes/walkways)

Roads that go in all directions unlike DC; if you try to go from North to South or East to West in DC you will have to change roads/be diverted because of security bs/ go around a park

DC specifically needs more roads traveling east-west and connecting across the Anacostia and Rock Creek

There should be atleast 2 more bridges going across the Anacostia River

Roads that continue across natural obstacles (Anacostia, Rock Creek, Potomac)

More roads across Rock Creek above the Zoo there are two many ways of getting across Rock Creek without having to go through back-roads or side streets Porter Street or Military Road.

There really should be a bridge or 2 where Bolling AFB & National Airport are at; theres no way around that one unless both were relocation or a subway was built under the river there

Another Bridge between the Key Bridge & the Chain Bridge

by kk on Feb 4, 2010 5:36 pm • link • report

"Unfortunately, Loudoun County has allowed development to block any potential northern extension of Route 28. Same deal at the end of the Fairfax County Pkwy, plus any potential bridge there also has parks in the way. "

That is a reason why the U.S. Constitution allows eminent domain for punlic use.

Anyone buying into such mis-developement should know better than support such right of way blockage.

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 4, 2010 5:38 pm • link • report

>Just because your against it does not mean that it should never happen

Just because something has happened in the past doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake.

by BeyondDC on Feb 4, 2010 5:56 pm • link • report

by NikolasM

------------------------------------------------------------

You can believe what you wanna believe. As far as I know the I-75/85 Downtown Connector Freeway in Atlanta was not a Mistake. And Several other major US Cities like Chicago, Houston, Boston, Phoenix, etc. have not suffered Financially for Freeway existence in their cities..........

by Adam on Feb 4, 2010 6:27 pm • link • report

Another Bridge between the Key Bridge & the Chain Bridge

by kk

------------------------------------------------------------

Totally Wrong......

There needs to be a Bridge(between Chain Bridge and American Legion Bridge) connecting Fairfax and Montgomery Counties. There are too many bridges connecting Arlington and NW DC already.........

by Adam on Feb 4, 2010 6:32 pm • link • report

@ Adam, total dollars is one way to measure things. Another way is by destroyed neighborhoods, forced displacement, loss of architechtural history and other cultural history, community cohesion, bifurcation of formerly contiguous communities, lost opportunities for walkability and the negative health consequences associated with that loss and the negative health consequences of auto generated air pollution in dense city neighborhoods. The last two items carry a heavy burden financially to individuals, governments and local economies.

by Bianchi on Feb 4, 2010 6:41 pm • link • report

>Just because your against it does not mean that it should never happen

Just because something has happened in the past doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake.

by BeyondDC

------------------------------------------------------------

Try CONvincing tax paying people in Atlanta, Houston, Charlotte, Dallas-Fort Worth, Philly, Boston, Chicago, Phoenix, etc. with that statement of "Freeways being a Mistake"..........

A lot of people Blame the Blue Line Extension to Largo Town Center for aiding the criminal elements at the Boulevard @ Largo Town Centre(had at least 5 Murders in the past 2 years) in which several Businesses has closed in the past year.

by Adam on Feb 4, 2010 6:42 pm • link • report

@ Adam

I was just listing stuff for DC really, but I do agree with you there needs to be many bridges across the Potomac & Anacostia Rivers or otherwise you just create bottlenecks at the current bridges requiring larger bridges and more lanes.

Speaking of Maryland another bridge across the Chesapeake somewhere not near the current bridge + a new bay bridge; and there really need to be many more bridges built across the Potomac along the entire length of the River.

by kk on Feb 4, 2010 6:49 pm • link • report

Would the fact that the railroads/yards behind Union Station and between NY and RI Avenues are unsightly and divide the area locally mean that it was a mistake to run railroads through DC at all?

by Douglas A. Willinger on Feb 4, 2010 7:50 pm • link • report

@ Adam: Dude, please learn how to cite properly. I don't want to spell out the whole etiquette here, but please look at how others do it and mimic it. One hins that I will give is how to make things italic. You use html code. Put (i) before a text and (/i) behind, but use <> and it'll look like this .

by Jasper on Feb 4, 2010 7:53 pm • link • report

Adam = Mike = whatever conspiracy "Virginia is suppressing Maryland" handle/persona du jour.

by NikolasM on Feb 4, 2010 11:03 pm • link • report

Yep. Same obnoxious ctrl-c + ctrl-v quoting habits, too.

by Alex B. on Feb 4, 2010 11:42 pm • link • report

Put (i) before a text and (/i) behind, but use <> and it'll look like this .

by Jasper

-------------------------------

Thanks! Jasper

by Adam on Feb 5, 2010 12:10 am • link • report

Adam = Mike = whatever conspiracy "Virginia is suppressing Maryland" handle/persona du jour.

by NikolasM

--------------

I would not call it conspiracy because its a FACT....

Case in Point the Eastern half of Loudon County has Mushroomed into a Heavily populated Suburb full of Professional High Paying Jobs, Upscale Retail, and former 2/4 lane roads converted into 6-8 Lane Expressways. On the other hand Frederick County(especially from the Montgomery County line to the city of Frederick) has Failed to see the same rate of Mass Development Projects as Loudon County resulting Several Frederick County and Northern Montgomery County Tax Paying Citizens to make daily looong commutes to Fairfax County and Loudon County for work.......

You only shout "Conspiracy" because you hate the fact that I'm speaking the truth.

Northern Virginia gets away with too much High Scale Development Projects while the Maryland Suburbs gets highly Criticized at the thought of building Multi-Level Indoor MEGA Shopping Malls, Building Multiple Rows of Tall Office Towers, and building Major 10-16 Lane Freeways throughout Prince Georges County, Montgomery County, Charles County, Fredrick County, and the Baltimore area......

If you call that a Conspiracy then Tysons Corner, Reston Town Center, the Springfield Interchange and Dulles Airport are All located in Prince Georges County, Maryland............

by Adam on Feb 5, 2010 12:31 am • link • report