Adding stops kinda defeats the purpose of an "express train".

That said, perhaps VRE could look at the impact of having only one stop in Stafford (instead of two) and adding one stop in Price William.

by Froggie on Mar 6, 2010 9:31 am  

The SF film is pretty cool. You have to wonder whether a signless/trafficlight-less environment in the central parts of DC wouldn't actually be better than what we have today. After all, that environment seems to work well in shopping centers (or least did ... until they started putting stop signs in shopping centers and adding cross walks and the like.) As this film demonstrates, in a low-speed environment, the various modes of transport 'self-regulate' themselves .. with each adapting to the whole based on their own relative capabilities (including speed). I think where it falls apart is in instances where the attainable speed for vehicles (cars, streetcars, buses, etc), greatly exceeds that of the other modes of transport. So while a scene like this probably wouldn't work in places such Herndon (or maybe even upper NW DC), it would probably work well in central DC ... including Dupont, Columbia Heights, Georgetown, and anywhere where the speed limit is already fairly low.

INCIDENTALLY, did everyone notice what a great view we're getting from that 1905 San Francisco streetcar as it approaches the Ferry Terminal at the head of Market Street? 7+ mins of beautiful view ... Now, imagine if that same streetcar had been powered by an overhead catenary wired system ... Do you think you would have sat for 7+ mins to watch the film? Would you have been focusing on the streetscene ... or maybe more the wires ... ?

by Lance on Mar 6, 2010 10:24 am  

I don't know if Prince William realizes that having better express service from the south means fewer riders on the trains that do stop in their neighborhood. No one's going to PW as a destination, so there's no economic argument to make. A higher-capacity system that moves more people faster is better for everyone.

by Omar on Mar 6, 2010 12:03 pm  

The earliest train on the Fredericksburg line (train 300) is the largest and is also heading towards being full in the near future.

I think it is fair to say that the express train will pick up a large number of passengers that would normally ride train 300. So yes, it won't stop in PW county, but they will get the added benefit of train 300 not being anywhere near full anymore when it follows, about 10 minutes later.

by DMC on Mar 6, 2010 12:06 pm  

Interesting that all the automobiles in the 1905 film seem to have right-hand drive.

by ksu499 on Mar 6, 2010 12:12 pm  

More PWC riders use the Manassas Line than the Fredericksburg Line. The addition of Spotsylvania county to the VRE system justifies the express train cost. They need an express train on the Manassas Line.

by MCS on Mar 6, 2010 2:03 pm  

An express train on the Manassas Line could get riders to L'enfant Plaza faster than taking the metro from Vienna

by MCS on Mar 6, 2010 2:07 pm  

This is not totally a reflection on this dialogue, but that public transit does not make money was something until recently that I held to be true, too. But then I read that entry from the councilmember from Montgomery County who went to Curbita Brazil and noted that their BRT pays for itself.

by Jazzy on Mar 6, 2010 8:24 pm  

MCS: and an express train would also free up space on Metro, which is sorely needed at rush hour.

Jazzy: public transit used to make money back in the day. Private companies built the London underground, for example.

Now, the question of subsidies to transit are clouded by the fact that the competing systems, such as private cars, are also heavily subsidized. Yesterday, I heard on NPR that gas at $8/gallon would be necessary to meet greenhouse gas targets, for example.

Whatever, if it was found that you needed to raise gas to $8-10/gallon to cover externalities (closer to the cost in many other nations), the economics of public transport would be completely altered by increased ridership, the ability to charge more for riders, and by the political space to make transit-friendly changes such as more bus express lanes.

by SJE on Mar 6, 2010 8:46 pm  

Here is a link to European prices. av. US is $3/gal, EP touches $8.
http://goeurope.about.com/

by SJE on Mar 6, 2010 8:51 pm  

@Lance

this video
shows the view out the front of a new streetcar running through Dresden - with overhead wires. We each have our own aesthetic - to my eye there isn't much disturbing about these wires.

by egk on Mar 6, 2010 9:36 pm  

I'm amazed that Stewart does not appear to realize that PWC will benefit from the express train. "Over my dead body," he says! It increases capacity regardless of whether it stops in his county. Politicians.

That video is quite inspiring. I'm impressed by how lively our streets were before we handed them over exclusively to cars.

by Matthias on Mar 6, 2010 9:49 pm  

Assuming the San Fran video is from the vantage point of a streetcar, why didn't it ever stop?

by Tim on Mar 7, 2010 9:25 am  

@Tim,

It's from a cable car. You can also tell that it's not moving too fast, as people likely could just hop on or off as they wished.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they set it up specifically for filming.

by Alex B. on Mar 7, 2010 10:02 am  

As anyone who pays attention to the immigration issue knows, Corey Stewart is a huge racist, so I'm not sure why anyone should take his views seriously (except insofar as they represent a large knuckle-dragging demographic in PWC)

by Phil on Mar 7, 2010 1:40 pm  

There were in fact wires above Market Street then, though the resolution of the film does not show them. At least three streetcars that cross Market in front of the camera have raised trolley poles. During the last minute or so one of the outer tracks is visible on the right (that stretch of Market had four streetcar tracks for many years, two of them belonging to the Municipal Railway, the other two to the privately owned Market Street Railway); it has no slot for cable or third rail, and, while I don't have time to do the research, I think it's a pretty safe bet that there were power wires above that track and its counterpart on the other side.

(Captcha: "portages appeared")

by davidj on Mar 7, 2010 1:49 pm  

@egk, Did you notice that at the end of the video the Dreden tram goes 'wireless'. Could it be entering a more sensitive area where the powers that be we willing to pay more to do without the wires? Personnally, I think the view prior to that is pretty bad with all those wires and supports for wires ... And just looks so 'old' ... using a bygone technology.

by Lance on Mar 7, 2010 3:21 pm  

@Alex B. "Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they set it up specifically for filming." Yeah, I wondered that myself. Additionally, could they (or someone) have speeded up the film. I mean there are some pretty close calls as far as collisions, but no one in the film seems phased by the close calls. Leading me to think that the folks back then were far less risk adverse than we today ... or, more likely, that if shown in 'real time' these events on the film would have happened much more slowly than we are seeing them. I.e., what appears as a close call to us, maybe really wasn't.

by Lance on Mar 7, 2010 3:25 pm  

This is not totally a reflection on this dialogue, but that public transit does not make money was something until recently that I held to be true, too. But then I read that entry from the councilmember from Montgomery County who went to Curbita Brazil and noted that their BRT pays for itself.

This is a function of much lower labor costs in Brazil, even in somewhere middle income like Curitiba. Most transit in developing/middle income countries can pay for itself (not the case past a certain level). Labor is something like 70% of the cost of providing transit service.

by J S on Mar 7, 2010 9:10 pm  

@Lance

The streetcar in the Dresden video doesn't "go wireless" at the end. The wires disappear into the bright lights of the sky. The wire is suspended between the poles holding the stop lights. You can see it at around 46 seconds into the video.

by MLD on Mar 8, 2010 8:39 am  

What strikes me about the San Francisco video besides its beauty is the courtiousness of everybody. So many close calls by our standards that would have engendered many a middle finger. Maybe it's that everyone is going much slower. What would I give to trade in the speed of life today for the speed in that video. Technology sometimes seems to act like a drug, filling the voids that it leaves behind.

by Thayer-D on Mar 8, 2010 9:47 am  

that SF video seems to resurface every once in a while. it _is_ cool, but it is also supposed to be at least semi-contrived/semi-directed, so i'm not sure it represents 'real life'. there are similar-looking films from other cities around the world.

by Peter Smith on Mar 9, 2010 2:42 am  

@Jazzy - What's Craig Billington up to these days? ;)

I'm a PW resident and VRE Rider...who thinks Stewart is barking up the wrong tree. Prince William has more stations than any other county (which is probably why they contribute the highest portion) but the majority of PW Riders are on the Manassas line. Stewart needs to look at the ridership statistics posted on VRE's website- it doesn't make sense to make this a do-or-die issue for the county. If there were more room on board the trains when they get to Rippon or Woodbridge, perhaps more would actually ride out of those stations. It's a tough call some mornings because I just don't want to be shoe-horned into the train. Expressing some of those southern passengers gets them off MY train and gives me an actual seat! Chairman Stewart - my biggest complaint about politicians like you: You don't care about the greater good - if you understood the issue and the logistics a little better, you wouldn't be stomping your foot like a spoiled toddler! I'm a Registered PWC Voter- I'll take this to this issue to the voting booth.

by FWHockej on Mar 9, 2010 4:24 pm