Can we get some real stores in there? I don't need a wig but I could use a Bed Bath and Beyond, a Target, or even a Hecht's.

Dan, why was Discovery allowed to build without ANY retail at ground level? Who approved that disaster?

And office space? They should build a condo tower there given the proximity to the Metro.

by Redline SOS on Mar 9, 2010 10:52 am • link • report

What exactly is the problem with loitering? It seems to me that if you want to have an engaging street, you need ample places to chill, with or without retail amenities. To me, spiking a fountain, removing said fountain, and pulling out trees only takes away shade and places to sit. If it's a certain 'element' you don't want hanging out in SS, I think there are more creative and useful ways to occupy their time than to physically remove the things that they sit on.

by JTS on Mar 9, 2010 11:15 am • link • report

City Place, Landmark, Springfield... every city now has 3 or 4 dead malls, filled with discout stores and short-term rentals (when you see a Halloween store, or a calendar store in December, its not good news for a mall).

As much as it pains me, a child of the 80's who spent many, many hours of my adolescents in malls, to say it, the era of the mall may be coming to an end.

Perhaps a wrecking ball is in order. But, let them go out in style, bring back Tiffany to play a final concert in the food court!

by urbaner on Mar 9, 2010 11:17 am • link • report

The historic art moderne limestone facade of the Hecht Comapny building should be preserved.

by SilverSurfer on Mar 9, 2010 11:23 am • link • report

CITY PLACE LIBRARY!!!

by Gary on Mar 9, 2010 11:29 am • link • report

As someone who used to work in the Lee Building across the street, I think the problem is not (just) with the corner facade, but the blank spaces going away from the intersection, especially on the Colesville Road side -- between the corner entrance and the AFI theater.

I'm no architect. I suspect these are load-bearing walls, and I suspect they are artifacts of the time when the whole building was a Hecht's department store (does anybody have any photos of the Hecht's? I moved to Maryland just after City Place opened). But maybe something could be done with the emergency exit formerly used by the now-closed cinema. Or something.

by Greenbelt Gal on Mar 9, 2010 11:33 am • link • report

@Red Line SOS: I hear you about the lack of general retail in DTSS, but wouldn't a Target there cannibalize the Targets in Wheaton and Calverton? Those two would have the most to lose, far more than Columbia Heights and PG Plaza which also get some Silver Spring customers.

I'd suggest a Walmart, but that might be a bit too downmarket and I think heads would explode if one was suggested for there even considering it couldn't be a Supercenter due to other supermarkets being within 1/2 miles (nevermind that Supercenters still might be banned from Doug Duncan's UFCW favours).

by Jason on Mar 9, 2010 11:35 am • link • report

@Redline

I totally agree about Discovery and ground-level retail. That was definitely a missed opportunity, especially with all the people who walk past that building on Georgia, Wayne and Colesville. And was I the only one who was waiting for them to open a Discovery Store (before the entire chain folded) inside that building?

@JTS

The plaza at Colesville and Fenton can barely handle foot traffic from the mall entrance and the bus stop. I'm not sure if it's practical to put seating or anything there for people to stop and linger. (Hence removing the fountain.) There is patio seating in front of the two restaurants there, so you'll see some people there for longer periods of time.

@Greenbelt Gal

The Hecht Co. building is at Ellsworth and Fenton; halfway down Fenton Street, the historic façade stops. The Colesville and Fenton entrance was built in 1992 and isn't historic, hence all of the exterior changes proposed. The blank space between that entrance and the AFI is where the lobby for the office building will eventually be built. A core of elevators and stairs to service the tower was put in 20 years ago and has never been used.

by dan reed! on Mar 9, 2010 12:16 pm • link • report

Changing the proposed office space to a hotel like Ritz Carlton would be more beneficial and since there is a hotel proposed across the street there must be demand for additional hotel space in Silver Spring. Luxury hotel would attract luxury retailers that the area is severely lacking and you have to make the 3 mile trek to Friendship Heights. The food court and any other retail outlet that attracts low income clientelle should be removed. A Dave and Busters at City Place would be awesome. Build the right stores for the right clientelle and they will come. The neighborhoods surrounding downtown are relatively affluent and it is clear that most of the rough people downtown are outsiders, predominately from the White Oak-Briggs Chaney area and PG County. There are plenty of other places for low income retail in those communities. Lets keep Silver Spring upscale!

by Cyrus on Mar 9, 2010 12:29 pm • link • report

Uh, thanks? I hope that's a joke. I live in the White Oak-Briggs Chaney area, by the way.

by dan reed! on Mar 9, 2010 12:32 pm • link • report

@Jason - I hardly ever make the trek to Wheaton...no car...only motorcycle. So I usually go to Columbia Heights on my way home from downtown. A retailer like Target might actually do ok...what's a similar retailer? Kmart/Sears?

by Redline SOS on Mar 9, 2010 1:12 pm • link • report

Unfortunately Cyrus is corect. Downtown Silver Spring needs more real upscale retail. It is probably the one area in East County that can support it. Eliminate some of the loitering, add some good retail/resturants, and soon you will be seeing a lot more people willing to put down over 500k for a two bedroom condo. Basically you need to shift the preception that will bring in more affluent people, kind of like what is happening in the Logan Circle area.

Take myself for example. I would much rather hop in my car and drive to Bethesda to see a movie, rather than walk the 2 min to the Wheaton Metro and ride down there. Metro reasons notwithsdanding, in Bethesda I have better dining options before and after the show (with the notable exception of Ray's), and much much better shoping. Finally in Bethesda you don't have babies in R rated movies, people yelling at the screen, and you have much less thugish looking people (that may or may not be looking for trouble, but I'm talking about perception). If this continues, it will be a long time drain on the area, and I'd love to see it change.

by Wheatoner on Mar 9, 2010 1:24 pm • link • report

I completely agree about the need for higher-end/higher-quality retail in Downtown Silver Spring. But I do take offense to the suggestion that there are too many "rough people" and "outsiders" from White Oak and Briggs Chaney. That's not really helpful, constructive, or even accurate. So, let's focus on what City Place and all of DTSS is doing to better itself. After all, that was the point of this post.

by dan reed! on Mar 9, 2010 1:29 pm • link • report

@Dan - I'm from Detroit and I have to concur...there's times I don't feel comfortable walking down Fenton. The security that is there isn't really adequate given the size of the crowds on Friday and Saturday nights.

by Redline SOS on Mar 9, 2010 2:19 pm • link • report

I went in to City Place Mall a recently on a weekend afternoon and though the surrounding streets were crowded (with probably one of the most interesting, diverse, and eclectic crowds I've ever seen in a public place) the mall itself was still mostly empty and most of the young people inside looked like they were just hanging out. There was nothing "dangerous" about it but it was definitely a little slow. Downtown Silver Spring seems to have good foot traffic though it doesn't match Bethesda or Pentagon City or the RB Corridor just yet. The recession seemed to have hit when the first part of the "Silver Sprung" campaign had taken effect so it feels like the transformation, while profound, is still incomplete. For example, though Silver Spring is no longer a dirty word in retail the office market still needs a boost. City Place Mall itself parallels Landmark Mall pretty well in terms of being underutilized. Springfield Mall is further out and I would argue is still relatively viable with its potential redevelopment, BRAC bringing office workers to the Fort Belvior and Springfield areas, and the still active surrounding big box stores.

Bottom line: City Place Mall, like Silver Spring itself, is still a mixed bag in terms of being a destination and the jury is still out on how well it can continue to succeed.

by Mike on Mar 9, 2010 2:42 pm • link • report

All I'm saying is that you dont see those type of people in downtown Bethesda or Rockville even thought there are multiple troubled areas of Rockville, Gaithersburg and Germantown. Silver Spring has the demographics to become the next Bethesda but because it is an attraction to lower-income people from far away communities, Silver Spring it hindered. And it says more about the housing situation in East County, which has a surplus of affordable housing and local activists seem to want more. It is a privalage to live in Montgomery County, not a right. Local politicians need to understand that low income housing destroys established communities and does nothing to advance the county besides creating the need for more social programs.

by Cyrus on Mar 9, 2010 2:47 pm • link • report

@ Redline, do you feel as uncomfotable walking on K near 20th at 12:30 on a weekday? It's just as crowded. The biggest differences are in the mean age of the crowd and proprtion of whites. There's a lot of youth and young adults in SS. Someone wrote a post here (in the last year?) expressing feelings of insecurity with being around the youth in downtown SS. I'm a firm believer that youth and young adults need a place to congregate and in fact they will do it even if a place isn't specifically supplied by the community. I've been in d.t SS many Fri & Sat nights and seen/been in the crowds of youth. Contrary to feeling insecure I liked seeing all the young people, feed off the excitement and thought it was great they had a place to go. I felt proud of SS for providing for the kids. Also, I'm not intimidated by youth. I'm an adult and I'm not at all shy about using that natural authority if I think a kid/young adult is pushing the behavior too far towards disruptive/unsocial. I say something! Just be respectful, positive and humorful, appeal to their best and you'll get good results.

by Bianchi on Mar 9, 2010 2:49 pm • link • report

Last summer I watched a 14 year old with a piece of the plastic from the fencing around the transit center whipping his group of friends in the middle of Fenton on one of the concert evenings. Security took it away, but it looked like it would get ugly for a few minutes...in the midst of families, kids in strollers, etc.

I agree that kids need a place to go. But they also need to know how to behave in public and all too often they don't. I blame socioeconomic conditions over race anyday, so the blame really falls on MoCo. Station a police officer or two down there when it gets crowded on a Friday and Saturday evening and behavior would change. Who really respects the Paul Blarts of the world?

The last thing we need is to have some situation like they had in Seattle, where "security guards" are told to observe and report.

Personally, I think Silver Spring should incorporate as a town, get a city council and strike off on its own from MoCo.

by Redline SOS on Mar 9, 2010 3:39 pm • link • report

"...notably a drug-related shooting during rush hour last fall."

You mean a drug PROHIBITION related shooting.

To think of the cr*p that the public puts up with to protect big pharm and cigarettes.

by Douglas A. Willinger on Mar 9, 2010 3:58 pm • link • report

gotta agree with Cyrus, a Dave and Busters would be a really good fit for silver spring. Silver Spring has had it's time to be down market and low rent but iam ready to see some development and stores more along the lines of bethesda/friendship heights

by Dan R on Mar 9, 2010 4:19 pm • link • report

@ Cyrus

So basically you want to segregate the rich from the poor ?

Areas need a mix of both, and different types of retail to attract different age groups.

What you do by your suggestings is create a rich side and a poor side of town when there should be neither it should be a mixed environment.

If you dont like a store so what; what does the rest of the environment like and what will make money in the area.

If you want highend retail (what do you mean by highend are we talking about Jimmy Choo, Versace, D&G, Prada, Vertu, Gucci, Louis Vuitton etc.)there or something like Macy's, Nordstrom etc.

If Prada, Vertu, Jimmy Choo, etc. they wont make enough profits there as they would in Chevy Chase.

@ Any one who doesnt like the segments of people that are currently there.

If you you complain about groups of people that it should refer to all tweens, teens, young adult, adults, & seniors.

Each has there own set of problems deal with it, all you will do it push the problem somewhere else which shouldn't be the case instead of solving the problems there.

None of these groups are better than the other.

Either come with somewhere for the segment you dont like to go or shutup; dont complain and have no answer to the problem.

Quit with the ideas of segregation among age groups.

by kk on Mar 9, 2010 4:20 pm • link • report

god forbid people don't want to be shot coming from the gym and harassed by drunk homeless people when spending a night out

by Dan R on Mar 9, 2010 4:20 pm • link • report

@ Redline, I don't disagree with anything you just wrote. I think the problem is what you descrobed, that it's a private street/open mall and the "security" are privately hired guards rather then MoCo police. I often see MoCo Police at the ends of Fenton, but I don't recall if I've seen them mingling in the crowd. Of course the cops I guess can come in there if some altercation comes up, but I agree, t'd be better if they were there for prevention rather then being called over to respond after the fact.

by Bianchi on Mar 9, 2010 4:24 pm • link • report

Also I have taking many walks through bethesda, friendship heights, and silver spring. Both bethesda and friendship heights have a diverse crowd of whites, indians, blacks , and asians walking around going about their business. I think what people are talking about are the "rough" crowd of people that look like they want to rob/stab you and yell some of the most profane language in front of small children and intimidate families that r trying to enjoy silver spring. I think that is crowd we want to see less of in silver spring and I don't care where they come from, they could be from southern maryland for all I care. But hey if you feel like being harassed by a pack of kids in front of your family by all means keep it the way it is, i'll stay over in "uppity" bethesda with the other "uppity" crowd.

by Dan R on Mar 9, 2010 4:45 pm • link • report

Can we stop with the stereotyping and generalization

How a person looks or there age means nothing its there actions that matter and nothing else.

by kk on Mar 9, 2010 5:03 pm • link • report

I witnessed a tiny woman break-up a pack of teenagers, 10-20 kids, who were on the verge of a fight on Columbia Rd. in AdMorg. Yelling at eachoer, facing off. My friend (the tiny woman) is 5'2" 110 lbs. She's also a veteran DCPS HS teacher so she knew how to handle the sitch and was not at all afraid. She was annoyed! She said "They KNOW they're not supposed to act that way in public." And that's what she said to them. Those kids listened to her! I was so impressed. And I took a lesson. We called the police anyway but by they time they got there the problem was dispersed. By intervening my friend protected the kids from themselves (from getting hurt) and possibly from an arrest. It was the kindest thing she could have done. She did their parents a favor. Kids need help from adults sometimes. Give. If you see the kids, they're part of your community.

by Bianchi on Mar 9, 2010 5:25 pm • link • report

When I moved to Takoma last summer, I explored silver spring and was very surprised with the mall. The outside area, with all the restaurants was PACKED. And the first time I was there I had no idea there was a large mall behind them. I'm pretty sure Im not the only one.

The second time I explored all 5 or so floors. I was "impressed" by how empty it was, both in terms of people and stores. I peeked into the movie theater and that thing looks like it shut down 6 months ago, not 6 years! I wonder why it closed instead of becoming a $3 older movie place?

Basically, the mall needs more entrances. There are too few, and they're hidden.

Protip: There are very large bathrooms near the top floor (by the movie ticketing area) that are very clean. I doubt anyone uses them besides the mall staff.

by J on Mar 9, 2010 8:02 pm • link • report

Retenanting City Place with offices is a step forward. It will create traffic for the stores and make the place more inviting during the day. As a mall, it suffers from being really the wrong size to do anything very well with it's current configuration. A Target might not be bad idea, although I'd say that the problem with Silver Spring is that it is a mishmash of chain stores you can find anywhere and local stores a few blocks off to the side that people don't have enough reason to discover. Upscale retail is probably less important than retail people can use. Strosnider's is as much an asset as Whole Foods, perhaps more so because it's the kind of store that usual doesn't survive when property values rise. SS also lacks interesting restaurants in the main redevelopment core.
Columbia Heights has done well with chains because there was a shortage of them in the inner city, but many resurrected retail districts have done it much more organically. Dupont was pioneered by local merchants and they still mostly survive. U Street/Logan is another example. Bethesda attracted chains only after mostly local businesses had livened up the place. Downtown DC struggles because the economics and efforts seem to be about attracting national chains rather than figuring how to draw things people might want and using Macy's as a real anchor. Besides the its mix, SS is a mess in terms of urban design--long blocks with nothing interesting and then a semi-confusing set of blocks with chain stores. But it also has blocks with interesting oddities and nice inexpensive restaurants that most people don't know about. It would work better if the transit area were better integrated. The fume filled area below the Bethesda Hyatt is more functional.

I only go to SS if I have a meeting there or someone suggests a place there, but it's really not an inviting place.

by Rich on Mar 9, 2010 8:42 pm • link • report

RedlineSOS - puh-LEASE, what part of Detroit are you from that you could be intimidated by a bunch of teenagers acting like teenagers. Is it the part of Detroit that's actually Royal Oak/Grosse Pointe/Farmington Hills?

Teenagers need a public place to hang out and, yes, be loud and obnoxious. That's how many teenagers are, sorry. What is this "look like they want to rob/stab you?" What does that mean exactly? If people are actually getting robbed and stabbed in that area, yes, there is a problem. But I doubt that's the case. Sounds more like other people are projecting their own prejudice.

by Erica on Mar 9, 2010 8:51 pm • link • report

@Erica, it was Dan R who's projecting, imagining he'll be robbed/stabbed, not Redline SOS.

by Bianchi on Mar 9, 2010 10:54 pm • link • report

@J -- Very few second-run movie houses exist anymore. Why would they, in this age of Netflix and on-demand cable/FiOS programming? Arlington Cinema 'n Drafthouse survives because it's as much a restaurant as a place to watch a movie, but there's only so much of a market for that.

Personally, it would be great to see a Cinema 'n Drafthouse up there in City Place, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

by Greenbelt Gal on Mar 10, 2010 9:56 am • link • report

Would Cinema & Drafthouse want to try Montgomery County again after the debacle up in Wheaton? Part of me doubts it though part of that failing was its location.

by Jason on Mar 10, 2010 10:09 am • link • report

Silver Spring needs to follow DC's example at gallery place. As soon as peole going to basketball/hockey games & concerts at verizon, movies at the multiplex, shows at Harmon and dinner at the many restaraunts complained of feeling harrassed and intimidated by the unsupervised teens hanging out, police enforcement was significantly increased with vehicle, bicycle and pedestrian officers.

by billof md on Mar 10, 2010 5:00 pm • link • report

Very happy to see this. I live in the neighborhood and would love to not have to drive to Rockville Pike, Columbia Mall or shop online. City Place Mall seems more geared to Urban Teens. But, as was done with neighborhood input for the Strosnider's/Whole Foods/etc complex, bring in retail that me and my neighbors will shop at often. For example, give me Macy's and Hallmark stores, not a Jimmy Choo store.

Silver Spring is a funkier mix of folks than Bethesda who have hung in there with Silver Spring through the good and bad times. And we are already worried about losing the local character of the neighborhood with respect to restaurants. Don't try to duplicate Mazza or Bethesda Row.

by CP 20910 on Mar 10, 2010 5:01 pm • link • report

Redline SOS- And office space? They should build a condo tower there given the proximity to the Metro.

Tim: Nooooo, Silver Spring already have Several Condo's and Apartments. They need to start building more office buildings to complete the "mixed-use" environment that Smart-Growth supporters keep preaching about.....

by tim on Mar 11, 2010 3:45 am • link • report

urbaner- Perhaps a wrecking ball is in order. But, let them go out in style, bring back Tiffany to play a final concert in the food court!

me: Perhaps removing the powers of anti-growth political communists from Silver Spring will help attract more upscale retail businesses to City Place Mall. It is not a difficult task to accomplish especially when Pentagon City, Crystal City Underground, Ballston Commons, and Tysons Corner Mall continues to remain relevant in being Completely Upscale Retail Destination........

by tim on Mar 11, 2010 3:49 am • link • report

Cyrus- Changing the proposed office space to a hotel like Ritz Carlton would be more beneficial and since there is a hotel proposed across the street there must be demand for additional hotel space in Silver Spring.

me: That sounds good, but I have a better idea. They can build the Office Building and a 5 Star Hotel on top of City Place. Pentagon City Mall has a Luxury Hotel and a Office Building that sits on top of the Mall. In that way whatever business company leases one of the new offices and they have visiting business partners flying in from another city(NYC, LA, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, Philly, etc.) they can choose to book a hotel next to the office building and by that time City Place Mall should have some decent upscale retail stores that would attract the business visitors......

by tim on Mar 11, 2010 4:00 am • link • report

Mike- City Place Mall itself parallels Landmark Mall pretty well in terms of being underutilized. Springfield Mall is further out and I would argue is still relatively viable with its potential redevelopment, BRAC bringing office workers to the Fort Belvior and Springfield areas, and the still active surrounding big box stores.

Bottom line: City Place Mall, like Silver Spring itself, is still a mixed bag in terms of being a destination and the jury is still out on how well it can continue to succeed.

me: BRAC is also setting up around NIH which is a shorter distance to Silver Spring as Ft. Belvior is to Springfield which means there will be some office growth spreading to Downtown Silver Spring. It is very selfish to not support more office growth in Silver Spring. There is enough population in Eastern Montgomery County to support more office/employment growth in Silver Spring by the way of increasing the number of upscale retail growth.

by tim on Mar 11, 2010 4:16 am • link • report

I live in Silver Spring now, just off dale and colesville. I'd like to buy a bigger place, and am keeping an eye on City Place direction to decide if it will be in Silver Spring or somewhere nicer. I'd like to see SS step up. We need a Nordstrom in the mall, not a Target. SS should be seen as on the cusp or really getting it together, not as at it's peak. If we get a target in there, then the best SS will be is Wheaton. And we already have Wheaton. And it's not that nice.

by wavering resident on Mar 23, 2010 2:21 pm • link • report