It's not really a good comparison to say that it will cost $67M to retrofit for three car service without saying how much more it would have cost if it were built as three car service to begin with.

If it was $67M now compared to only $5M when the system was built, that's pretty significant. If it's $67M now compared to $65M when it was built, I don't see what the big deal is.

The real answer is probably somewhere in between but it's important.

by Michael Perkins on Apr 7, 2010 9:36 am • link • report

From the NYT article:
"But detractors argue the push is an effort to force people to abandon their cars and trucks for a seat on public buses and represents the latest of what they see as a growing number of government intrusions into Americans' personal life."

I'd make some snarky comment about how incredibly stupid this statement is, but I think it's idiocy speaks for itself.

by Reid on Apr 7, 2010 9:39 am • link • report

its

by Reid on Apr 7, 2010 9:40 am • link • report

Judging from the way the Google Transit data is handled, I would have to assume that they're just predictions based on schedule data.

by kidincredible on Apr 7, 2010 9:47 am • link • report

The Gazette article on the Viers Mill Road intersection said there were 70 collisions, 7 involving pedestrians - not 70 pedestrians struck.

by Wheatoner on Apr 7, 2010 9:53 am • link • report

The previous Dr. Gridlock had the best summary of driving on Washington Circle: No matter what lane you're in, you're in the wrong one.

by Fritz on Apr 7, 2010 9:56 am • link • report

Picking up on yesterday's discussion: are our streetcars being built with stops that cannot take two-car streetcars, as it looks? Boy would be terrible to have to retrofit them when ridership levels push DDOT to run two car trains.

by egk on Apr 7, 2010 9:59 am • link • report

The "transit poison pill" for the Baltimore Red Line that would require restudying is a hard call. The line really should be a heavy rail line instead of a tram. However, is it better to get a tram sooner or a heavy rail line later? The caveat is that a heavy rail later is less likely to get built and could fall victim to changing political winds in both Annapolis and DC.

by Cullen on Apr 7, 2010 10:07 am • link • report

The thing is that the current plans for the Red Line involve a tunnel through almost the entirety of downtown - and more grade separation beyond that. In the most dense areas, it will function just like a subway.

by Alex B. on Apr 7, 2010 10:12 am • link • report

Just a nit-pick...Senator George Della does not only represent the Canton neighborhood -- he's my Senator, too, and I live across town.

by Carol Ott on Apr 7, 2010 10:14 am • link • report

Wup wup to David Brooks.

by Thayer-D on Apr 7, 2010 10:53 am • link • report

And where is Metro on getting their data on Google Transit? It's been 5 months (plus 3 years) now.

by James on Apr 7, 2010 10:53 am • link • report

As someone very familiar with Washington Circle, I don't think it in inherently dangerous for pedestrians.

It looks as if the accident was on the 23rd part of the circle, which is down by the metro. That intersection was one of the better ones. Or the victim might have been crossing the circle near 23rd but w/o benefit of the crosswalk -- which is shorter but very dangerous. The victims's system said the city should build crosswalks and sidewalks, which of course it has, but perhaps not in the optimal space for pedestrians crossing.

What you really need are longer crosswalk times when crossing the circle -- especially during hours where there are a lot of pedestrians. Only 15 second. Then you have another set of circles to cross New Hampshire which really confuses people. Also, crossing signals on the West side of of K st entering the circle during rush hour would help both cars and drivers -- although it might be confusing.

by charlie on Apr 7, 2010 11:07 am • link • report

I think the issue with the Red Line is difficult. This re-study would kill it, yes. But it's not all that great to begin with. We could do better things with the money, like not build a second massively expensive tunnel a block south of one that operates at 33% capacity.

That being said, I have no faith the MTA would study HRT alternatives other than the full Red Line as planned, so of course the study is a waste of time.

by Jed on Apr 7, 2010 11:27 am • link • report

My roommate also has been hit in Washington Circle.

My experience is that the traffic lights are not very clear or prominent and are, on occassion, completely ignored. Some of the traffic in the Circle has also just finished speeding down the Whitehurst Freeway and is not yet ready to slow down.

I dunno. I think it's time to get rid of the right turn on red in the District, and start ticketing people for speeding in pedestrian areas. It would be a good way to raise revenue from all of the VA and MD out-of-towners who use the city as their personal suburb.

by aaa on Apr 7, 2010 11:47 am • link • report

From what I've seen, the DC streetcars will be 3-segment articulated units, so they're already in a "3-car" configuration.

If you make them too long, you'll end up blocking intersections on short blocks (and DC's got a few of those). Better to run more short trains than few long trains.

by andrew on Apr 7, 2010 11:53 am • link • report

@aaa; "Some of the traffic in the Circle has also just finished speeding down the Whitehurst Freeway and is not yet ready to slow down."

There are 3 stoplights and then a narrow access road if you are coming from Whitehurst. Trust me, you're going to catch at least two of them.

The only traffic light that I see ignored is the "no turn on red" from the circle onto New Hampshire northbound. Given the low levels of both drivers and pedestrians using that road, people often turn on red when nobody is around -- and sometime even when people are around.

by charlie on Apr 7, 2010 11:56 am • link • report

A common mistake, but it's Veirs Mill Road, not Viers Mill Road. Remember, I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A or in Veirs Mill.

by Stanton Park on Apr 7, 2010 12:00 pm • link • report

OK, fixed both errors in that piece (ugh!)

by David Alpert on Apr 7, 2010 12:12 pm • link • report

I don't seem to recall there being as many ped xings to get into Washington Circle as there are at Dupont Circle. For instance, if you're coming westbound to the point where Pa and K Streets meet, there is no ped xing to get into the circle that I can recall. And my memory is sketchy, but are there ANY ped xings to get into the circle? There might be, I just can't think of any now. Basically what I'm saying is, there are no lights, right?

by Jazzy on Apr 7, 2010 12:33 pm • link • report

I think the article also doesn't distinguish if the fatalities on Veirs Mill were pedestrians. It' just says that out of the 35 crashes directly in the intersection 2 people died.

by Wheatoner on Apr 7, 2010 12:51 pm • link • report

Just to clarify: 70 crashes over 7 years is 10/yr over an undefined span, or at the intersection specifically it's 5/yr. The article doesn't note how many were either ped-related or could have been alleviated or worsened by the presence of a signal. Those rates are actually comparable to many intersections in the area and far less than most signals in the area.

by Bossi on Apr 7, 2010 1:00 pm • link • report

I went to GW and used to walk up 23rd street to my friend's apartment up on N and 23rd all the time. I either had to walk all the way around the circle to the left or walk through the middle-left of the circle. You can't really walk through the middle of the park, it's fenced off and there aren't many pedestrian paths.

Neither route is very safe. There is a pedestrian crosswalk where K street inbound and Pennsylvania Ave inbound meets the circle, but absolutely nothing where Pennsylvania Ave outbound traffic peels off the circle. You have to either walk all the way up to the crosswalk at 24th and Penn or jaywalk across two lanes of not so slow moving traffic.

If I chose to walk across the circle I had to jaywalk across three lanes of traffic at the top of the circle.

Here's what I'm talking about: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=616+23rd+St+NW,+Washington,+DC+20037&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.222969,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=616+23rd+St+NW,+Washington,+District+of+Columbia,+20037&ll=38.902629,-77.050158&spn=0.001551,0.00515&t=h&z=19

by Chris on Apr 7, 2010 1:21 pm • link • report

I really should have plugged that google maps link into a URL shortener. Sorry about that.

by Chris on Apr 7, 2010 1:23 pm • link • report

"Given the low levels of both drivers and pedestrians using that road, people often turn on red when nobody is around -- and sometime even when people are around."

I pass through that intersection multiple times a week, and I'd say drivers' compliance breaks down this way:
-20% come to a complete stop and wait for green before turning (i.e. the only legal option)
-60% come to a stop or a crawl at the red, but then turn on red (i.e. illegal)
-20% don't even slow down and completely blow through the red light (i.e. illegal and extremely dangerous)

by Reid on Apr 7, 2010 1:34 pm • link • report

The traffic light in front of the hospital is also ignored too much. It might only be a single digit percentage of drivers who run this, but it's enough to needlessly knock down a pedestrian every now and then.

There is also a daily stand off between people coming south up New Hampshire and pedestrians crossing the street. Honking horns, hurt feelings, etc.

The city is just too car friendly at the expense of people who walk and ride mass transit. In NY and other large metropolitan areas there are more disincentives to owning a car in the way of tolls, etc. In DC, we are not allowed to have tolls. My solution, then, is to step up traffic enforcement and fine those who drive recklessly at the expense of our city's citizens. People who race down our wide avenues and streets get used to it, and aren't sure what do with a traffic circle.

by aaa on Apr 7, 2010 1:51 pm • link • report

I almost got hit on Washington Circle a few months back, when there was a pedestrian walk signal facing the driver, but none facing me (the pedestrian). I thought I had the right (cross walk, no signal saying yes or no); he thought he had the right (cross walk, but a no walk signal). A very stupid design for both parties, but especially the pedestrian. If this was something a private company had done, there would have been a lawsuit.

Is MPD considering some more active enforcement on the circle. The place is full of pedestrians, and its no surprise. The circle is in a neighborhood full of residents, businesses, a hospital, a university, and a metro stop. Also, if you are going to G'town from the downtown, you will probably pass by the Circle.

As for the argument about coming off Whitehurst: to get onto the Circle, you have to pass through a narrow access road and almost always hit at least one stop light. So, the reason people drive too fast on the Circle is entirely a function of the way people drive, not some sudden surprise.

by SJE on Apr 7, 2010 1:58 pm • link • report

the traffic lights are not very clear or prominent and are, on occassion, completely ignored.

As someone who walks to and from the Foggy Bottom Metro to Georgetown everyday, I can tell you it is more often than not the pedestrians who ignore the signals, not so much the drivers. I'm surprized more people aren't hit.

by Juanita de Talmas on Apr 7, 2010 2:30 pm • link • report

I have to cross Washington Circle once a week to go to the dr's and it's ridiculous. First you have a tiny island at New Hampshire Ave on the south side that only holds three people, when there are usually about 20+ waiting to cross. Then the light is confusing to drivers so they often run it, eating into the 18 seconds the pedestrian light permits.

On the north side of the circle, you only have a legal crosswalk at New Hampshire Ave and none at 23rd st. So pedestrians have made their own path through the bushes and jaywalk because that's a ridiculous circumstance.

by lou on Apr 7, 2010 2:47 pm • link • report

@Chris; there are 4 legal crosswalks around the circle. The problem isn't lack of crosswalks and signals; it is they aren't placed where pedestrians use them. Crossing the circle w/o using the crosswalk is convenient and dangerous.

@AAA. I agree that the light on New Hampshire by the hospital is ignored -- for right turns. Very bad design there and you need more time for peds to cross.

There are three stop lights for traffic on the circle itself which slows cars down a lot. Speaking as a driver, I get frustrated because usually getting into the circle is a pain b/c of 1) bad light design beforehand; 2) cars not understanding circle merge rules and 3) pedestrians blocking the way. As a pedestrian, I think longer walk signals would solve a lot of the problems.

Another solution by New Hamshipre and the hospital would be to time it so that that entire intersection would become a walk zone, rather than having three separate crosswalks with separate timings.

by charlie on Apr 7, 2010 3:45 pm • link • report

But are the lights at the same place the pedestrian crossings are? No, I don't think so. The ped crossings don't have a walk sign (crossing the circle itself I'm talking about, not a side street). Cars won't stop for pedestrians without a light there. At least that has been my experience. So you have to wait till there's no traffic.

by Jazzy on Apr 7, 2010 3:55 pm • link • report

Speed of the traffic is not a problem at Washington Circle (try the circulator for an assessment). I periodically use the far end at NH Ave. It is an awkward place, with traffic coming from various directions. I am lifelong jaywalker, but not stupid about it and I've never had a problem. The are, though does get lots of people who have no idea where they are.

by Rich on Apr 7, 2010 8:59 pm • link • report

@Jazzy; two of the crosswalks have light, two do not.

The two that do not have lights are shorter, and go to a traffic island.

I am just as frustrated about their sub-optimal placement -- it is usually quicker to bypass W. Circle as a pedestrian rather than use the crosswalks as intended.

After reading the comments of the original story I am more convinced than ever the victim was not using one of the crosswalks.

by charlie on Apr 7, 2010 9:13 pm • link • report

Chris,

i use a http://j.mp/ bookmarket, which is really just an alias for the bit.ly service.

or you can use the following syntax to hide long/ugly URLs:

<a rel="nofollow" href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=616+23rd+St+NW,+Washington,+DC+20037&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=51.222969,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=616+23rd+St+NW,+Washington,+District+of+Columbia,+20037&ll=38.902629,-77.050158&spn=0.001551,0.00515&t=h&z=19">link to 23rd street view</a>

of course, i'm hoping for a simple HTML editor to make adding links a bit easier. (and the 'Preview' function re-converts escaped HTML entity syntax into HTML syntax again -- nerds will know what i mean.)

by Peter Smith on Apr 8, 2010 4:52 am • link • report