That Georgetown story is ridiculous. The university is talking about expanding its grad student population, and keeping the undergrad population capped. If there is some argument for why grad students are noisier and drunker than undergrads, I've never heard it.

by tom veil on Apr 29, 2010 9:33 am • link • report

Must ... resist ... flame-war ... combining ... three ... subjects ...

No sorry, I can't.

You just gotta love Georgetown residents. You would almost think that the place was founded by the Dutch. These folks can complain with the best of 'm. They go booboo about the historic sites of DC being destroyed by nearly invisible wires while buses in Georgetown navigate the old tram tracks. They pad their pockets by asking outrageous rent for leaky basements. They fear intrusion of rif-raf, while virtually every block has extra police protection due to some undisclosed home owner being a former secretary or president('s family). And now they are shockingly bothered by the historic sight of drunk students in their neighborhood.

Jon Stewart summarized my feelings most eloquently and melodically last week on his show. Twice.

And to the DC council I say: Come on, tax those Georgetown residents rich folks. They already get everything from the city they want. Now make 'm pay for that privilege. And just for ironic reasons, use most of that money for building all the transit that Georgetown residents abhor so much.

Ahhhh, the relief.

by Jasper on Apr 29, 2010 9:46 am • link • report

While some anti-density Georgetown residents reflexively oppose any GU student increases, most support the increases in GU's ten-year-plan as long as GU is committed to investing in the multi-generational community needed to support this increase. I live 6 blocks from GU, and would not live within 3 blocks of GU because my 18-month-old would be awakened at all hours by screaming, drunk students.

If GU would (a) make a meaningful investment in off-campus student life (which they are beginning to do literally this week in response to residents' push back) and (b) build a real grad dorm in North Arlington where there is room to house some of the 8,700 grad students (not the 120 beds planned in the neighborhood), then moderate voices of residents would prevail over this Burleith photographer clown.

by Ken Archer on Apr 29, 2010 9:46 am • link • report

a six cent sales tax on my gym would definitely cause me to cancel the membership and bring it back to va.

by charlie on Apr 29, 2010 9:54 am • link • report

When will they learn. When times are tough, you bring spending in-line with income. DC needs to cut spending, not increase taxes. Seriously!

by Ben on Apr 29, 2010 10:00 am • link • report

"The money would restore some services for needy residents ...

I remember reading recently where between 2004 and 2009 (or something like that) the DC budget INCREASED by something like 45% ... i.e., the DC government spent half again in 2009 than it did in 2004. Maybe I'm dumb or something, but if we have almost 50% MORE money to go around now than we did five years ago, why would we need more taxes to 'restore' some services for the needy? Are these services that weren't being provided in 2004, but maybe started getting provided because the District was experiencing a tax windfall due to the real estate market? Is it that we're paying collecting less in taxes because of all these tax abatements we keep reading about? I dunno. But I do know that there's absolutely no justification for the District ballooning its budget by nearly 50% in a five year period. Was the city on a drunken spending spree? Time to cut back, definitely not time to ask the hardworking tax payers to spend even more. Especially not in these hard economic times. The District needs some tough love. WE, the taxpayers, need to just say 'no'.

by Lance on Apr 29, 2010 10:06 am • link • report

In a fight between GU Students and Georgetown residents, I honestly can't decide which side I want to lose.

by andrew on Apr 29, 2010 10:18 am • link • report

Grad students? Grad students? They oppose graduate students?

What, are they afraid of a study group breaking out at Starbucks?

by Matt Johnson on Apr 29, 2010 10:30 am • link • report

"They oppose graduate students?"

Residents are thrilled to have grad students. However, the University is tearing down 6 rowhouses that it owns in the neighborhood to house 120 grad students, that's 120 out of the 8,700 grad students in the plan. What problem does that solve? And at the cost of 6 historic townhouses? That doesn't make sense for GU or the residents. It's not uncommon for urban universities to spread campus around a little and DC's Comprehensive Plan instructs universities to do so. So why not build a real grad dorm that will actually attract grad students with affordable housing some place where there's room to build it? And then connect the dorm and campus with GUTS shuttles?

by Ken Archer on Apr 29, 2010 10:45 am • link • report

How're they going to get permission to tear down the 6 historic townhouses. I know developers have a tendency to say 'oh, we'll keep the front facades and build something big and bulky behind it', but technically, at least, the historic preservation law in DC protects all sides of a historic property and not just the front facade. The Georgetown neighbors should fight this. This isn't so much about accommodating more grad students than it is about losing a neighborhood. And neigbhorhoods are what make a city. Look what happened to the Foggy Bottom neigbhorhood over the last 25 years with GW's expansion. It got obliterated. Yeah, it's nice for grad students to be able to live and study 'in the city', but what kind of city is it without its neigbhorhoods. We're fortunate to have a neighborhood like Georgetown so close to the city center. And of course Georgetown University is a very important part of that neigbhorhood. But that doesn't give it the right to 'eat the neighborhood'. Trying to add 8,700 grad students would do just that.

by Lance on Apr 29, 2010 10:58 am • link • report

Well said, Matt. Most grad students don't have time to make noise. They're too busy studying and doing experiments. It's hard being a grad student. I don't ever want to be one again.

by Cavan on Apr 29, 2010 11:04 am • link • report

I believe this would be subject to review by the Old Georgetown Board, the Zoning Commission and eventually the Mayor's Agent. I cannot see where the OGB would support razing townhouses.

by Andrew on Apr 29, 2010 11:12 am • link • report

Lance, care to describe exactly how Foggy Bottom was "obliterated" by GW's expansion? I've lived in the neighborhood for 15 years, and I just don't see it.

Of course, there is a group of (mostly elderly) Foggy Bottom residents with little else to do but try to block every single move GW makes. They usually fail, mainly because the city realizes they are little more than cranks with too much time on their hands.

Seriously, the city told GW it needed to build more on-campus student housing, based on constant complaining from certain residents. The university agreed to do this and submitted its plans to do so. Those same residents tried to block GW from building ON-CAMPUS dorms, which is exactly what they were campaigning for in the first place. Ridiculous.

by Foggy Bottom Res on Apr 29, 2010 11:40 am • link • report

@ Ken: And then connect the dorm and campus with GUTS shuttles?

Because Georgetown residents also oppose GUTS buses.

Also, where do you think Georgetown should actually build that grad student dorm?

It's not uncommon for urban universities to spread campus around a little and DC's Comprehensive Plan instructs universities to do so..

And yet, all neighborhoods surrounding urban campuses keep fighting every single move. Georgetown, GW, American, they all suffer the same hostile neighbors that ignore the fact that these universities were first. George Mason is getting more and more problems in Fairfax as well.

People go booboo over the nasty development of GW in Foggy Bottom. Well, history flash, GW was the first to go to this swampy, damp, low-lying area of town. The only reason they went there was that it was the only place where they'd have growth opportunities. Foggy Bottom exists because of GW. It has the only retail in the area.

Furthermore, these residents do not seem to understand that these universities are among largest private employers in the District. It is very odd that the city gives tax breaks left and right to attract companies, while utterly ignoring the largest "companies" it has. The city and it residents take the presence (and taxes) of the universities for granted. It won't happen soon, but keep frustrating them and they might at some point just leave.

Of course, residents would oppose that too. They'd miss their historic fights.

That would be a loss for the city. People think of Washington as the seat of the Federal Government. But, our area actually is also a major center of science. We have some of the most exclusive private universities in the world. We have the largest state universities of VA and MD. We have strongly devout universities. And on top of that, we have major Federal Labs. NRL, NIH, NIST, NASA-Goddard, APL, ARL (ok, we're getting to Baltimore now). And don't forget the science that's ongoing in the museums and archives we have.

You can complain about these institutions cobbling up space, but they are also providing for fantastic education for future world leaders, ground-breaking science, and well-paid jobs with the accompanying tax revenue.

Just look at this list of Heads of State who are alumni of Georgetown and GW:

* King Abdullah II of Jordan ibn al-Hussein
* Ricardo Arias Espinosa - President of Panama
* Gloria Macapagal Arroyo- President of the Philippines
* José Manuel Barroso - President of the European Commission, Prime Minister of Portugal
* Laura Chinchilla Miranda - President-elect of Costa Rica
* Bill Clinton - 42nd President of the United States
* Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer, Interim President of Iraq
* Syngman Rhee, first President of South Korea
* Song Yo Chan Prime Minister of South Korea
* Mikhail Saakashvili, President of Georgia
* Faure Gnassingbé, President of the Republic of Togo
* Nematullah Shahrani, one of four former vice-presidents of the Afghan Transitional Administration and the head of the Afghan Constitution Commission.
* Alfredo Cristiani - President of El Salvador
* Felipe de Borbon, Crown Prince of Spain
* Galo Plaza - President of Ecuador
* Dalia Grybauskaite - President of Lithuania
* Saad Hariri - Prime Minister of Lebanon
* Željko Komšić - Tripartite President of Bosnia
* Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer, Interim President of Iraq
* Yasmine Pahlavi, Crown Princess of Iran in exile
* Faure Gnassingbé, President of the Republic of Togo

Check Wiki for lists of secretaries, senators, governors etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Alumni_by_university_or_college_in_the_District_of_Columbia

There are few cities that can produce such lists. Yet, residents whine and complain about students blowing off some steam. As if they never partied.

by Jasper on Apr 29, 2010 11:53 am • link • report

"where do you think Georgetown should actually build that grad student dorm?"

In North Arlington, where the GUTS shuttle already goes and many grad students already live. The residents don't oppose the Rosslyn GUTS shuttle. The ANC did ask that the Dupont route be changed - I didn't agree but that's not what we're talking about here. If you can identify a space in Georgetown where a dorm could be built for a meaningful portion of 8,700 grad students, I will be the first to support it.

"It's not uncommon for urban universities to spread campus around a little and DC's Comprehensive Plan instructs universities to do so. And yet, all neighborhoods surrounding urban campuses keep fighting every single move."

I was referring to the need for a grad dorm, for which there simply isn't room in the neighborhood without tearing down historic houses. Neighborhoods fight universities when universities are uninterested in multi-generational community around campus. Universities show their concern for retaining and building multi-generational community around campus through off-campus student life, a role that has been a poorly-funded afterthought until just this week...

by Ken Archer on Apr 29, 2010 12:11 pm • link • report

RelayRides was supposed to set up personal car sharing in Baltimore. I had signed up for more info and never heard back. I just checked the link and now it says Boston. Anyways, looks like it's gaining traction on the east coast as well.

by Jed on Apr 29, 2010 12:14 pm • link • report

Grad students don't like to live in dorms, and they often don't like to live next to campus. Transit to get them from other places is what's needed. Moreover, to the extent that they do want to live near campus, that only makes residential properties in Georgetown more valuable, enriching the current homeowners.

by RPM on Apr 29, 2010 12:35 pm • link • report

The City Council will tax and spend us back to prosperity!

by Fritz on Apr 29, 2010 12:38 pm • link • report

@Foggy Bottom Res, By the time you arrived 15 yrs ago, GW had already done most of its damage. You got here about the time that those "Foggy Bottom residents with little else to do" were able to actually slow down the process. You've benefited from their efforts.

by Lance on Apr 29, 2010 12:46 pm • link • report

Is the plan really for traditional dorms for grad students or is it "grad student housing" eg 2 bedroom apartments?

by Bianchi on Apr 29, 2010 12:48 pm • link • report

If what's needed in the housing market is more 2-bedroom apartments, it would be great if developers could build more 2-bedroom apartments, but I don't see why it makes sense to push Georgetown play this role.

Presumably the Georgetown neighborhood activists can then take some pride in having forced the university to do something it doesn't want to do, but one suspects that if a private developer were proposing to build 2-bedroom apartments open to all renters, they wouldn't exactly be rolling out the welcome mat.

by RPM on Apr 29, 2010 12:53 pm • link • report

If apartments are commissioned by GU they can keep the costs down but if they'r aimed to the open market I'd suspect a developer would want to make them as upscale as possible with every conceiveable amenity and perceived luxury/trendy element, thus making them unreachable for grad students. Thats the difference between university housing and regular market housing i've seen in other college towns, quality but simple vs. the reach for high-end fancy.

by Bianchi on Apr 29, 2010 1:10 pm • link • report

Bianchi, I think another way of putting what you're saying is that there's a lot of pent-up demand for apartments, and that developers who build them can get a lot for them. It's just not that much more expensive to build an upscale building.

Asking the university to build inexpensive housing for grad students is just another way of asking them to subsidize grad students. I don't have any problems with subsidies for grad students, but I do think that the demands made by Georgetown neighborhood activists have more to do with their own issues than optimal public policy.

by RPM on Apr 29, 2010 1:19 pm • link • report

Mary Cheh proposes to tax soda at 1¢ per ounce? So for a 12 pack of soda costing about five bucks there would be $1.44 of tax or 28%? Isn't that a bit much? Besides, if it's diet soda, that's essentially harmless anyway. Why not tax beverages containing sweetner, regardless of carbonation?

by Steve on Apr 29, 2010 1:43 pm • link • report

@RPM, At least from what I'm reading here, the issue is 'where are 8,700 additional grad students going to live?' And the concern of Georgetown residents is that GU is going to want to knock down historic rowhouses on Georgetown's streets to put in grad housing ... Like it's done in the past. A good example are the couple of blocks directly in front of the main gates. When I attended GU, those blocks were filled with authentic historic rowhouses. Sometime in the 80s, GU bought a couple of those blocks, knocked down all the houses, and rebuilt a 'Disneyfied' version of what was there. It's pretty bad. I guess putting a highrise big brick building would have been worse. AND from what I'm reading here, the residents are saying, 'there's room to build a big building over the bridge in Rosslyn, where big buildings are welcome ... you don't need to be tearing down more historic properties in Georgetown." I would guess the decision to make available housing that is below market for grad students is a GU decision. They want people to attend their grad programs, and they're facing the facts that many grad students can't afford to live in a high rent district like Georgetown, and so they'll subsidize that cost. But how they pay for that subsidization is where the residents of Georgetown come into the picture. Is GU going to effect it by taking a property that is nowadays housing a family or two (and maybe a basement tenant ... such as a university student) and combining with 20 other like properties to house the 8000+ new grad students .... i.e., are they going to 'push off' the costs of that subsidization on the neighorhood by 'eating it' like GW did? Or are they going to put such a large building where it better belongs? ...

by Lance on Apr 29, 2010 1:50 pm • link • report

Lance, you failed (or purposely neglected) to answer my question. What SPECIFICALLY is this "damage" that you speak of? Did GW force residents from their homes? Did the school tear down historic structures?

Do you even live in Foggy Bottom, Lance? Or do you just hate GW for whatever reason? Because your use of such hyperbolic language ("damage," "obliterated") is frankly absurd. GW did neither of those things.

Please, enlighten me as to why you say such falsely negative things.

by Foggy Bottom Res on Apr 29, 2010 2:14 pm • link • report

"What SPECIFICALLY is this "damage" that you speak of?"

The damage to multi-generational community. No, the elderly and families with young children aren't "forced" from their homes, but there's more to sustaining multi-generational neighborhoods than simply ensuring that all are free to buy houses that are for sale. Right?

If universities would join residents in helping off-campus students to learn how to respect generational diversity in their neighborhoods, then the students themselves would be adding to this diversity and to the appeal and character of the neighborhoods. But GW and GU historically haven't shown much interest in how their students conduct themselves in the blocks around campus. I think that's changing for the better, but only in response to these protests from residents.

by Ken Archer on Apr 29, 2010 2:27 pm • link • report

I went to GW in the 1990s and lived off-campus in Foggy Bottom. I sympathized with residents who had to deal with the idiocy of students, particularly the late-night noise, parties, and trash.

And yes, GW did tear down historic structures and displace residents. Or do you think Gelman Library, Smith Center, Marvin Center, 2000 Penn, the Academic Center, Funger Hall etc. have been there since L'Enfant and that all the older dorms were always dorms?

by Fritz on Apr 29, 2010 2:47 pm • link • report

@Lance,

If the issue is, where are 8,700 more graduate students going to live, the answer is, all over the place, and it would be good for everyone in the area if there is transportation planning to make sure they can get to and from school. In my experience, grad students -- to a much greater extent than undergrads -- are happy to live farther from campus. Also, they do much less binge drinking and cause fewer problems for their neighbors. (N.B. -- I say this as a homeowner within walking distance of Georgetown who cleans up my fair share of other people's beer cans, etc.)

Increased demand for housing near the university is good for area homeowners. That should be obvious, but I guess it isn't.

Off the cuff, I'm not a fan of GU knocking down old rowhouses, but I don't see how that necessarily follows from the decision to educate more graduate students.

@Ken Archer,

I think you overestimate how much universities can do to get undergraduates to behave like adults.

by RPM on Apr 29, 2010 3:25 pm • link • report

@RPM, Frankly I don't think the residents of Georgetown need to be telling GU where to build housing or even how to house their grad students. Like you said, grad students could most likely manage fine on their own to find some affordable housing somewhere ... even if it meant commuting in from Springfield or subletting a room in a house. In many countries, the idea of a university making accessible housing for its students is unheard of. That said. I assume they're so used to the universities saying 'we must have affordable housing near the university and WE must play a part in making it happen' that the residents are being proactive and saying 'yes, you can make it happen in Rosslynn ... and not have a reason to ask to tear down more of our community'. I think they're just being practically, 'cause if they didn't do that, then the university would just say 'but we HAVE to tear down those houses so that these grad students have affordable housing.' But personnaly, I think if everyone, community and university, just stayed out of it, the grad students would figure out themselves what is best for themselves, individually ...

by Lance on Apr 29, 2010 3:37 pm • link • report

Thank you Lance, Ken, and Fritz. You make good points.

On an unrelated note - I just saw that yet another pedestrian has been killed - over on M Street.

by Jazzy on Apr 29, 2010 3:48 pm • link • report

Re: Georgetown

Why can't universities scatter their housing around the city more, instead of creating enormous student ghettos? That is done in Europe, where universities have been around for hundreds of years and there are far more historic properties to protect. That is better for students and residents alike.

Re: Free Parking

Employers that offer free parking should be required to offer SmartBenefits of an equal amount, or even a cash option. "Free" parking should not be permitted in a transit-oriented urban area.

by Matthias on Apr 29, 2010 4:21 pm • link • report

Where is this magical space in Rosslyn where developers are willing to build cheap grad student housing and not million dollar condos? I'd really like to get in on some of that action.

by Lou on Apr 29, 2010 4:48 pm • link • report

@ Ken: The residents don't oppose the Rosslyn GUTS shuttle.Oh you devious double speaker. The reason why the Rosslyn and Arlington shuttles face less resistance is because the (now) enter from Canal Rd. Nobody lives, there.

@ Matthias: Why can't universities scatter their housing around the city more, instead of creating enormous student ghettos?

You wanna call Georgetown or Foggy Bottom a "student ghetto"? Really?

Well, the reason is that American parents do not trust their adult children. That's also why dorms never have kitchen equipment like stoves. American parents are afraight that their immature kids will burn down the place.

by Jasper on Apr 29, 2010 4:51 pm • link • report

@ Lou: Where is this magical space in Rosslyn where developers are willing to build cheap grad student housing and not million dollar condos? I'd really like to get in on some of that action.

That is irrelevant. For the short sighted folks in Georgetown, Rosslyn is the area from Key Bridge to Key West. In their minds, there should be some space "down there" in red Virginia where Georgetown can find cheap ground.

by Jasper on Apr 29, 2010 5:00 pm • link • report

@Jazzy,

Please e-mail me at rm215570 (at) Gmail (dot) com. I am the brother of the jogger who was hit by a WMATA bus at Connecticut and Florida last September, and I have been hoping to get in touch with you.

by RPM on Apr 29, 2010 5:21 pm • link • report

In reference to September, I checked, and unfortunately anyone I know who witnessed the incident is not keen on getting involved. I'm very sorry.

by Jazzy on Apr 29, 2010 5:42 pm • link • report

Obviously I'm very disappointed to hear that. If you'd relay my interest in talking, I'd appreciate that. It doesn't take much imagination to guess at what a bus does when it hits a pedestrian (in a crosswalk with the light, btw), or about how eager WMATA is to do the right thing.

Thanks.

by RPM on Apr 29, 2010 5:50 pm • link • report

@Jasper:

You wanna call Georgetown or Foggy Bottom a "student ghetto"? Really?

Inasmuch as a ghetto is a place with a high concentration of a specific population group, yes, Foggy Bottom could be considered a student ghetto.

by Matthias on Apr 29, 2010 6:10 pm • link • report

Glad I don't live in the District, too many sociopathic east coast neurotic bourgeois psychos apparently.

What a vile thing to do. I am 22 years old and have every right to drink a beer in my home, if I see you looking in my window thinking you can blackmail me and claim I am getting drunk and intend to commit a crime, that is wrong. If you are trying maliciously harm me I would be forced to confront you physically, I believe I'd have the legal right to.

I suppose I could probably take this guy, restrain him, and do a citizen's arrest for unlawful trespassing and harassment. Maybe if he had a nice camera I'd smash it on the curb and claim he tried to throw a punch. See you in court dumb mother.

by TXSteveW on Apr 29, 2010 7:58 pm • link • report

RPM, I relayed your interest a few months ago.

I'm sorry. I wish it were otherwise. I really do.

by Jazzy on Apr 29, 2010 8:22 pm • link • report

@ Matthias: Ah, but the Foggy Bottom is also a rich people ghetto. And a white people ghetto (especially if you exclude GW students). And a State Department ghetto.

by Jasper on Apr 29, 2010 9:53 pm • link • report

Good news for Science City! They should boost the share of science related uses to 50%. Science City, opposed by the local NIMBY organization (ACT), will provide for the commercial space to place Montgomery County and the US at the forefront of biotechnology. When the US 29 master plan is revisited in the East County to allow for a comparable Science City II the result is a "Biotech Triangle" with NIH at its apex and the ICC interconnecting the world class research cities. NIMBY and other special interests have failed to gain traction in killing the plan and the momentum is gaining for Montgomery County to start creating well-paying jobs for its citizens. Hooraay for Science City! Our plans are coming to fruition!

by Cyrus on Apr 29, 2010 11:09 pm • link • report

One point needs to be clarified: there are not going to be 8,000 NEW graduate students, that is going to be the new total number. And many of the newly added graduate students will be taking most of their classes at the "Center for Continuing & Professional Education," which is right next to Clarendon.

Most GU grad students I know don't live especially near campus, especially the part-timers. I lived in Van Ness, for instance. Very few non-internationals would be interested in living in a dorm-style setting, in my experience.

Many med students do live in Burleith & Foxhall.

by Russky on Apr 30, 2010 12:02 am • link • report

Very few non-internationals would be interested in living in a dorm-style setting, in my experience.

This has been my experience having attended grad school and knowing many grad students, both here in DC and around the country.

by Alex B. on Apr 30, 2010 7:59 am • link • report

Very few non-internationals would be interested in living in a dorm-style setting, in my experience.

Given that 'dorm-style settings' aren't the norm in most countries abroad and most foreign students would never even know the concept until coming to this country, the qualification 'non-internationals' (does that mean 'Americans'?) is kind of irrelevant here. I guess you're saying that grad students by and far just don't want to live in a dorm-style setting?

by Lance on Apr 30, 2010 9:24 am • link • report

No, Grad Students do not want to live in a dorm setting. Grad students are older, they are adults who behave like adults (unlike undergrads, who are adults who behave like, well, undergrads).

I think the reason that on-campus graduate housing tends to cater to international students is simply because of a lack of familiarity with the US rental markets and concerns about the timeframe -i.e. a lease that lasts for the school year vs. the calendar year.

Anecdotally, I know tons of folks enrolled in graduate coursework at various Universities across the region. None of them live on campus.

by Alex B. on Apr 30, 2010 9:45 am • link • report

@Lance, etc.:

Foggy Bottom's neighborhood was obliterated? That's news to me! I'll make sure to tell my co-editor at the Foggy Bottom Blog that we just keep writing about something that doesn't exist.

by Jared on Apr 30, 2010 10:22 am • link • report