Anyone else noticing a pattern with NPS and bikes?

by Ward 1 Guy on Mar 2, 2011 9:37 am • link • report

Re TSA at the Amtrak station, see http://blog.tsa.gov/2011/02/screening-of-passengers-at-savannah.html - TSA eventually says "We apologize for any inconvenience we may have caused for those passengers." - of course, they're apologizing for "inconvenience," when what we need is the realization that TSA's actions are illegal. (The comments in the blog post have more wisdom than the blog itself.)

by M.V. Jantzen on Mar 2, 2011 9:41 am • link • report

@Guy: Yes. Bears are for bearing. Air is for airing. And parks? Parks are for parking. Duh.

by Bill on Mar 2, 2011 9:42 am • link • report

@M.V. Jantzen

How exactly is TSA's actions illegal as opposed to just pointless?

by OhioExile on Mar 2, 2011 10:07 am • link • report

I should double check my grammar next time -- How exactly are TSA's actions illegal... --

by OhioExile on Mar 2, 2011 10:19 am • link • report

Could we keep the sections on purely political news out? I know this is DC and most people are interested but I find the drift towards politics unmoored to specifically urban planning/architecture is a troubling one.

by Boots on Mar 2, 2011 10:22 am • link • report

@OhioExile
In this particular case, the search was made after the passengers got off the train. From the accounts of the passengers, it seems they were told to go inside by TSA agents to claim their luggage. Once inside, the TSA used this as the legal justification for performing the search. To me, it seems like a 4th Amendment violation.

by Steven Yates on Mar 2, 2011 10:33 am • link • report

If NPS doesnt want people using parks for recreation then what, exactly, are the parks for? How is using a park as commuting route, but denying its use for recreation, in keeping with the mission of NPS?

by SJE on Mar 2, 2011 10:39 am • link • report

I don't understand the statement: "They already don't use roads like Rock Creek Parkway because of NPS's reluctance to use its land for recreation."

Major portions of the park are closed to car traffic on summer weekends while open to bike traffic.

by eb on Mar 2, 2011 10:52 am • link • report

Bag fee: Paul Pinsky, MD state Sen. from PGC, introduced legislation to allow PG Co. to implement a bag fee too.

See "Prince George's Bag Bill"
http://senatorpinsky.org/site/legislation

by Tina on Mar 2, 2011 10:54 am • link • report

Re: Rock Creek Park

A while back there was a similar story about the NPS denying a weekend temporary street closure permit for the sole reason that such action would "close the street". I remember thinking how funny it was that the Park Service would even have a procedure and forms to close down the street if such an action would never be approved.

by Adam L on Mar 2, 2011 11:05 am • link • report

@OhioExile: the 4th amendment protects us from warrantless searches. Courts have made exceptions for luggage, but I don't think the current invasive scan-and-grope methods have been reviewed. I certainly hope they are ruled to be unconstitutional. And in the Savannah case, TSA's actions are completely unjustified, to say nothing of ludicrous, roping people up as they DEPART the train?!? Just unbelievable.

by M.V. Jantzen on Mar 2, 2011 12:08 pm • link • report

The transit option for the 9/11 Memorial in NYC is phenomenally bad. Or I should rephrase. It's perfectly fine for students or groups coming to NYC simply to see the Memorial from New Jersey on a day trip.

However, it doesn't reflect the reality of most tour bus drop offs/pick ups in the area. 9 times out of 10, when I take a group there, we've started the morning at Statue of Liberty, had lunch at Ellis Island, and are taking a mid-afternoon walking tour of lower Manhattan, ending at Ground Zero. The bus meets us there and we go on to our next stop, which could be anywhere in Manhatten.

Expecting us to take the Path back to Jersey and then take the bus back to Manhattan is a bit silly. Furthermore, it won't happen. We'll just wander somewhere else and do a pick up. Far better to have a designated (and enforced!) pick up/drop off area than to have buses clogging up the area for blocks around.

Finally, they estimate 6-8 buses an hour there! Rough guess, in busy season there are 20-30 groups there per hour.

Wishing away tour buses doesn't work.

by TimK on Mar 2, 2011 12:22 pm • link • report

@TimK

Finally, they estimate 6-8 buses an hour there! Rough guess, in busy season there are 20-30 groups there per hour.

Wishing away tour buses doesn't work.

I really appreciate your insights as a tour guide, Tim - but how would you solve the massive problems that your industry causes?

If transit won't work, I don't see too many options other than trying draconian rules, regulation, and enforcement against your industry. Wishing away tour buses might not work, but we can start aggressively ticketing them.

As I see it, this is essentially a tragedy of the commons - and it's up to the commoners (i.e. tour bus operators) to regulate themselves here, or face the wrath of draconian government regulation.

by Alex B. on Mar 2, 2011 12:51 pm • link • report

@TimK and Alex B.

Maybe we can develop some kind of proposal where major landmarks are moved to a more convenient location for tour buses... I'm sure we could move Ground Zero, the Empire State Building, and the Statue of Liberty to New Jersey and build a bus parking lot next door. Same for the Capitol, White House, national monuments and Smithsonian--I hear there's a lot of available land out in Loudoun County. ;-)

by Adam L on Mar 2, 2011 12:59 pm • link • report

@Alex B,

Ah, the crux of the problem. I've written about this a bit (and will again) here, but a few quick observations:

1. Tour operators won't regulate themselves. No one is going to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage, and if operators won't, guides and drivers are hard pressed to do it. There is clearly a role for regulation here. Actually, a strong need for it.

2. What are the massive problems? There is congestion associated with buses (in DC even more than NY). And people don't like large groups of schoolkids. I get that. A lot, actually. Not always undeservedly, frankly. But I often have people complain not about my groups behavior, but about their very presence. Not being dismissive, what are the problems so we can address them.

3. Clairity: Parking, idling, and drop off/pick up rules are often unclear. This is especially a problem in DC with a clear lack of Federal and DC coordination on the ground.

4. ENFORCEMENT! Please!!!! Take the Mall, for example. Once a month or so, the Park Police write everyone down there a ticket, with or without cause (usually with). Then they ignore us for a month. If we have consistent enforcement, we will follow the rules.

And finally, to elaborate on my "wishing away tour buses won't work" comment, DC (really the Feds) makes it so difficult to park anywhere, do you know what the bus drivers often do when I'm not on board? They drive around downtown and the Mall. After all, they don't pay for gas out of their pocket, but they do pay parking (both tickets and non-itinerary paid parking). Frankly, it makes the idling look downright environmental in comparison.

I'm not against regulation. I crave it. But it should be well thought out and solve the problem.

by TimK on Mar 2, 2011 1:17 pm • link • report

@ Alex B:but how would you solve the massive problems that your industry causes?

Yeah, that's a good angle. Let's see tourists visiting a tourist site as a problem. That's having it upside down. The problem is not tourists visiting a tourist site. The problem is that locals refuse to acknowledge the transportation problems related to tourism, and refuse to come up with solutions for tourist transportation. Meanwhile, locals are happily taxing tourist every possible way. Kinda hypocrite.

by Jasper on Mar 2, 2011 1:24 pm • link • report

@Jasper,

It's not the tourists. It's the tour buses.

I do think transit works quite well for tourists. It doesn't work very well for tour groups. That's the key distinction.

Tour buses are very large. They take a fairly long time to load and unload, since these are coach buses, not transit buses. They often drop their passengers off at a key location and then pick them back up a short time later. Their parking, idling, circling, and driving though downtown not only causes congestion, but can be a real headache for all sorts of other issues - parking, curb space use, deterioration of public space, etc.

I think Tim is right that the rules for tour buses are often unclear (and also often unenforced).

As far as solutions go, enforcement is a big one. However, enforcement is really only going to show that there is often a fundamental mis-match between the demand for a space or a monument and the actual supply/capacity (which will often be essentially fixed).

by Alex B. on Mar 2, 2011 1:48 pm • link • report

Again, well put, Alex.

I would note, and this has nothing to do with your comments, Alex, that many times the discussion about how to handle these issues devolves into how much people hate tourists. That may be what Jasper is alluding to.

Fundamentally, you're right though. Too many groups want to visit the same thing at roughly the same time. We can and should manage the buses better, but there is an intrinsic supply and demand issue that can't be avoided.

by TimK on Mar 2, 2011 1:56 pm • link • report

@Jasper @Alex B. @TimK:
Actually, Alex triggered a memory. In 8th Grade, my middle school band took a school trip from Georgia to New York City. Our first stop was to be at the Apollo Theater in Harlem. For some reason, we were a bit late, and arrived in Harlem during the height of the evening rush.

So our three motorcoaches pulled up on 125th Street and started unloading. It's hard to find enough vacant consecutive parallel parking spaces for one motor coach, let alone three, so we just blocked the right lane while we got off.

And while we were unloading, 2 NYPD officers in cruisers showed up and tried to get our buses to move. We were blocking traffic, after all. But we just kept unloading at the normal pace you can expect from middle schoolers.

Yeah. It's not the tourists that create problems.

by Matt Johnson on Mar 2, 2011 1:57 pm • link • report

@Steven
"In this particular case, the search was made after the passengers got off the train. From the accounts of the passengers, it seems they were told to go inside by TSA agents to claim their luggage. Once inside, the TSA used this as the legal justification for performing the search. To me, it seems like a 4th Amendment violation."

Then it would be unconstitutional, not illegal. Illegal means that it violates a law. This does not violate any section of the US Code. Unconstitutional != illegal.

by SB on Mar 2, 2011 2:56 pm • link • report

@TimK

What about some sort of ticketing system?

Say you want to visit Ground Zero with a tour bus. You have two options - one, get a timed ticket that allows you to unload only within a certain time window (thus some relationship between demand and supply is maintained), or you can unload your bus at a completely different location and walk/take local transit there.

If you try to cheat, you are aggressively ticketed.

Would that kind of timed entry work? It works for various museums and whatnot that have limited capacity and high demand.

by Alex B. on Mar 2, 2011 3:05 pm • link • report

@ M.V. Jantzen @ Steven Yates

Well, if you are arguing the legality of TSA searches in general, then that is really another discussion. TSA has until now had the authority to search people entering buildings that are used for transportation, including airports, metro stations, etc. So I can't see the search being illegal.

Please don't construe this to be anything but a legal argument - clearly searching someone getting off a train makes no sense, and TSA said as much, but legally speaking, I can't see how this is illegal.

by OhioExile on Mar 2, 2011 3:31 pm • link • report

RE: Bike DC

Elsewhere, someone suggested that Bike DC go up Canal Road. It occurred to me that it could then return to Georgetown, go over Key Bridge, and up Wilson ... saying ending at Clarendon. It would be a real "bicycle boulevard" and we could watch people die on the climb out of Rosslyn.

by Geof Gee on Mar 2, 2011 3:37 pm • link • report

@OhioExile:
From a legal point of view, the TSA loses it's compelling state interest since the people have left the train. While true that they went back into the train station (which would probably allow TSA to perform a search), it sounds as if they were compelled to enter the station, either by saying they had to collect their bags there or by outright telling them they had to go inside (though there might be some details here on what exactly the TSA did to get the people in the station that might barely pass constitutional muster).

Another point is they said they had to come inside to get their bags but in fact this was not true. Apparently the bags were actually left outside. Now someone who is actually a lawyer will have to weigh in on whether taking the bags into the station in this case would have constituted an illegal seizure and if the fact that they the bags weren't actually inside somehow informs the constitutionality of the action.

by Steven Yates on Mar 2, 2011 3:48 pm • link • report

As for TSA searches in general (your typical airport screening) I would say they are legal but for the most part still ineffectual security theater.

by Steven Yates on Mar 2, 2011 3:51 pm • link • report

@Alex B. It might. However, in this case, I think the problem the folks are facing (and I may be wrong) is not the pick up/drop off per se. It's the spill over into other neighborhoods. So the bus is idling in Tribeca, waiting for me to give him a call and say we're ready for a pick-up.

by TimK on Mar 2, 2011 6:16 pm • link • report

Less Bikes, More Cars. Sorry folks, but I just hate individuals who bicycle in any city. 99% of them do not obey the law, go through red lights and believe the rules do not apply to them at all. Until these individuals follow they rules, they should be banned from the road. Remember the woman who was hit and killed by the garbage truck at S and Conn Ave about two years ago...sorry, her fault; she went around the truck on his blind side while the truck was stopped at a red light. This is why I am so against bikes in this city or any

by sick of 'em on Mar 3, 2011 11:10 am • link • report