Franconia-Springfield is a commuter station. Huntington, and Eisenhower even moreso, has a pretty decent contingent of local population that uses the stations.

by Froggie on Mar 7, 2011 11:31 am • link • report

On station renamings:

I support the NoMA-Galludet U. one, since that shortens and simplifies a current bad name. That's a step in the right direction.

The other two are steps in the wrong direction. They both add terms to names unnecessarily. Please, stop the madness.

by Alex B. on Mar 7, 2011 11:33 am • link • report

@Froggie, I think by "commuter" station, the author meant "non-tourist", rather than commenting on whether the station's riders were from the immediate neighborhood or drove in from further suburbs.

by Jacques on Mar 7, 2011 11:43 am • link • report

The new Metro map should just make the names of terminal stops bolder, like on the BART or SEPTA maps. Using cardinal directions could be confusing to a lot of people (especially when the lines don't always go in a straight line), and "inbound" and "outbound" are hard to define. At what point does a Red Line train, for instance, go from inbound to outbound? You could make an argument for almost any stop.

by dan reed! on Mar 7, 2011 11:48 am • link • report

This change has been needed for a long time. Don't wait, make the change ASAP.

by Adam L on Mar 7, 2011 11:53 am • link • report

I think that instead of mixing the train at the endpoints, Metro should run the required "colors" of trains from the starting points, but only one color of train to the endpoint. Having Orange=New Carrollton is easier to remember than Orange=New Carrollton OR Largo. Then the fact that several different colors might start at Vienna or Greenbelt or Franconia can be noted on the map. Nobody cares where a train comes from just so long as they understand where it is going to go next, or end up. Silver Line service will require a new line on the map starting at Stadium-Armory, but the same scheduling practice should apply. (This won't necessarily work for more complex service changes, but it should work for everything likely in the next decade.)

by PeakVT on Mar 7, 2011 11:59 am • link • report

I'm glad to see they aren't re-naming the Yellow Line. A few other additions were not made to this new map, though. "Callouts" highlighting trains turn around at W. Falls Church, and the existing turn-arounds that occur at Stadium-Armory, and Silver Spring.

by Matt Glazewski on Mar 7, 2011 12:02 pm • link • report

@Jacques: I'll be the first to agree that the stations on my end of town rarely get tourists, and David already wrote that. But if that was his intention, he didn't have to include the "primarily commuter stations", which isn't quite as much the case, especially at Eisenhower.

by Froggie on Mar 7, 2011 12:04 pm • link • report

Well done, Metro. My hat goes off to you for actually listening to the customers and understanding some of our commuting issues. It's a start.

As a commuter from Franconia-Springfield to Gallery Place, I welcome this change.

by SB on Mar 7, 2011 12:05 pm • link • report

Matt G: It's important to keep in mind this is not the new map. I think this is some people in the planning or communications department doing a quick and dirty modification of the old map just to show the general idea.

When they really redo the map, I hope they will fix some of the horrific design elements, like the labels that are at a slightly skew angle to the lines (see Federal Center SW, Benning Road), the places the curves are oddly not uniform, and more.

by David Alpert on Mar 7, 2011 12:07 pm • link • report

I must be dense today, because I am stuggling to understand the changes.

My primary concern is whether they are cutting the number of blue lines trains to Rosslyn, which will make it harder for Arlington riders to get to national.

by charlie on Mar 7, 2011 12:10 pm • link • report

@David A - thanks for pointing that out. Let's hope they upgrade the map big time, and also have the planned silver line on there, too! Don't you have some sort of influence in matters like this? ;-)

by Matt Glazewski on Mar 7, 2011 12:14 pm • link • report

...cutting the number of blue lines trains to Rosslyn, which will make it harder for Arlington riders to get to national.

Or the Pentagon and Crystal City, both major employment centers.

by Juanita de Talmas on Mar 7, 2011 12:14 pm • link • report

@charlie:
Try this post. It breaks it down:
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/6336/metro-faq-how-will-silver-orange-blue-fit-at-rosslyn/

by Matt Johnson on Mar 7, 2011 12:16 pm • link • report

Stop with the name diarrhea! Keep Navy Yard as it is, unless the Lerners want to chip in $50 milllion for Metro funding...

by Michael on Mar 7, 2011 12:19 pm • link • report

@matt Johnson; I remember that post but the results are NOT positive. Arlington needs better north south connections, and even removing a few blue lines trains means it make non-rush hour connections more difficult.

As I've said before: classify WMATA rail as commuter rail.

by charlie on Mar 7, 2011 12:26 pm • link • report

@charlie:
The change is for rush hour trains only. Off-peak service will not be affected. That means that during the midday, the same number of Blue Line trains will operate between Rosslyn and Pentagon as currently do.

by Matt Johnson on Mar 7, 2011 12:28 pm • link • report

@Matt

I'd say that David does have some influence, given that previous presentations for this same concept were incredibly convoluted before GGW called them out on what was a very simple (and clever) service adjustment. I like David's mock-up a bit better than Metro's rough proposal (although supposedly that's also just a mock-up, so....)

That said, there will now be very few trains that actually run as the color Blue, following this change.

As for renaming, I'd propose "Ballpark-Riverfront" if we're going to rename Navy Yard. The entrance to the Navy Yard is actually pretty far away from the Metro, and its significance as a landmark has been eroding for many years now. The only downside is that this will confuse tourists.

I'll happily burn "SEU" off of every map and streetsign, and think that NY Ave could use a naming adjustment too (but agree that renaming could be painful/annoying in the short-term).

Also, the address on the big printed maps for the NY Ave station is dead wrong, and about 5 blocks from the actual station entrance. Hopefully, they'll fix that minor issue as well.

by andrew on Mar 7, 2011 12:32 pm • link • report

Hm. Does this also mean that there will be trains from Largo that terminate at West Falls Church?

by andrew on Mar 7, 2011 12:34 pm • link • report

@Matt; thanks. That does make a difference.

by charlie on Mar 7, 2011 12:36 pm • link • report

@andrew:
Correct. The services will operate in both directions.

by Matt Johnson on Mar 7, 2011 12:36 pm • link • report

Why would we re-name the Navy Yard station?

Riverfront isn't much better. I know that's the Capitol Riverfront brand, but we have lots of rivers in DC and they all front on something. We'd also then have back to back stops of "Waterfront" and "Riverfront," despite the fact that they refer to two different bodies of water.

The Navy Yard has been there for hundreds of years. Much of the development will take place within the confines of what used to be the Navy Yard, as well - it extended all the way to 1st St SE.

by Alex B. on Mar 7, 2011 12:39 pm • link • report

we have lots of rivers in DC

Specifically, two.

by andrew on Mar 7, 2011 12:46 pm • link • report

We need to stop re-naming stations. It's bad enough we have U Street African American Civil War Memorial Homeless Shelter station.

SEU has been closed for how long? MU is how far away from Ballston? AU is how far from Tenleytown? Naylor Rd station is on Branch Avenue while Branch Avenue station is on Auth Rd? There are two stations with GMU appended to them...yes, I know there are two campuses. Tell me that isn't confusing.
The Navy Yard is one of the oldest things in Washington. Sure, let's re-name the station, who cares about the history.

by Keep it simple, stupid on Mar 7, 2011 12:46 pm • link • report

Right - two rivers. And which one metro stop should be named for them and their many miles of riverfronts?

by Alex B. on Mar 7, 2011 12:55 pm • link • report

I would love to see the name of 'New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U' station renamed to simply 'NoMA-Gallaudet.' The current name is too long and misleading. On more than one occasion, I've had to give directions to tourists (at the station) who were looking for their hotel on New York Avenue. They came to the NY Ave Metro station thinking it would be nearby, however their hotel was actually located downtown.

Additionally, as NoMA continues to grow and develop, a renaming of this station would help brand the area and new neighborhood.

by Josh C on Mar 7, 2011 1:00 pm • link • report

Good luck explaining to all those people who get on the blue line every morning in Pentagon City and the Pentagon to Rosslyn why their trains are even fuller than normal.

This is not a solution to the problem of not having enough capacity at Rosslyn, and downtown.

by Jasper on Mar 7, 2011 1:13 pm • link • report

MU has a campus 3 blocks from the Ballston station,at the corner of N Glebe and Fairfax, and they have shuttles that run from there to the main campus.

by dcseain on Mar 7, 2011 1:14 pm • link • report

@dcseain -

We should probably rename Rosslyn as "Rosslyn-Leesburg" because Loudoun County transit has a "Shuttle Bus" that can take you to Leesburg.

by Keep it simple, stupid on Mar 7, 2011 1:24 pm • link • report

KISS: Also "New Carrollton/Boston" and "King Street/Miami."

by David Alpert on Mar 7, 2011 1:29 pm • link • report

@Keep it simple, stupid and David Alpert —

Your sarcasm is unfortunate. MU is _three blocks_ from campus — three blocks! That is, quite literally, walking distance. It's nothing like (say) Vienna/Fairfax-GMU and Tenleytown-AU, where the campuses are much farther away.

by Matt on Mar 7, 2011 1:41 pm • link • report

MU is actually about 20 blocks from Ballston. One building in the Ballston neighborhood warrants to be appended to the station? By that logic it could be "Ballston-MU-NSF-Holiday Inn-Cosi-Panera-AMC" At least some of those are open beyond business hours...

by Keep it simple, stupid on Mar 7, 2011 1:54 pm • link • report

If we want to get technical, AU has buildings across the street from the Tenley metro station, to say nothing of the fact that folks going to/from AU likely account for a fair amount of the use. The National Zoo is 3 blocks and Adams Morgan is a half mile from Woodley Park and there certainly isn't a movement to remove Zoo from that name.

I mean why not name it Tenleytown-Wilson HS-Janney ES-Whole Foods? When did it become a requirement of Metro to use the nearest place of any interest as the station name?

by campuses on Mar 7, 2011 1:55 pm • link • report

I'm having a hard time figuring out what the imapact will be for those who ride the Blue line from Downtown stations (like Farragut West or Foggy Bottom) South to Pentagon or Crystal City in the morning, and the reverse in the evening. I suppose it will be the same 6 minute additional wait with more crowding, but I don't see any analysis done on this usage pattern.

by Jeremy M on Mar 7, 2011 2:53 pm • link • report

@campuses: AU has no building directly across the street, although it has multiple with a couple of blocks (WAMU, Tenley Circle Campus).

If I'm correct, local universities, such as AU, Howard, and UMD pay for the name changes. In this age of universal technology, why can't people find out which station to exit? Metro has a fairly accurate trip planner, and most colleges and many businesses say which station(s) they are closest to. Metro also publishes maps that are available in stations that say how to get to destinations (Ie: National Harbor: Take the Green Line to Branch Avenue and ride the NH1 to National Harbor or White House: ride the Blue/Orange lines to McPherson Sq.)

by thedofc on Mar 7, 2011 3:00 pm • link • report

@dan reed!:

Inbound outbound direction changes at Metro Center and Gallery place as those two station are the geographic centers of all of the line in the system.

WMATA defines direction internally as follows:

Red	To Shady Grove - To Glenmont
Blue	East - West
Orange	East - West
Green	North - South
Yellow	North - South

To put it simple terms for Blue Orange and Yellow and any future service crossing the River between Virginia and Washington DC:
All train passing through the Potomac River tunnel: East - West.
All train passing over the Fenwik Bridge: North - South.
Green pretty obvious: North - South.
Red being the exception: To Shady Grove - To Glenmont

by Sand Box John on Mar 7, 2011 3:06 pm • link • report

@Jeremy M: Right now there's 16 orange lines and 10 blue line trains during the maximum hour. After the switch, there will be 7 blue line trains and 19 Orange line trains. After the Silver Line opens, this will likely change to 10 silver, 10 Orange and 6 blue. Since the trains are more or less equally spaced, there might be 10 minutes between blue line trains sometimes.

by Michael Perkins on Mar 7, 2011 3:11 pm • link • report

@Jeremy M

The numbers are in the PDF presentation that's linked in the article. Currently, there are 89 passengers per car during rush hour on the blue line between Rosslyn and the Pentagon, compared to 106 passengers per car on the Orange line between Rosslyn and Courthouse, which is considered over-capacity. With this change, there will be an estimated 93 passengers per car on the blue line while decreasing orange line service to a much-more-manageable 90 passengers per car. While this may seem unfair to make the blue line more congested than the orange, there is also expected to be more growth on that line to make up the difference as well as increased service direct to downtown over the 14th street bridge.

by Adam L on Mar 7, 2011 3:36 pm • link • report

Sorry - I meant "decreasing orange line congestion" (not service)

by Adam L on Mar 7, 2011 3:36 pm • link • report

@ Adam L

Though I could be mistaken, I was assuming those numbers reflected Pentagon -> Rosslyn for morning peak and Rosslyn -> Pentagon for afternoon peak. That way they could be compared with the Oranage line trains heading in the same direction (into or out of DC) at peak times.

If "Between B/Y South and Downtown West" includes riders in both directions, than I have no problem with the analysis or conclussions. If, however, the analysis for people fraveling on the Blue line from Downtown West to B/Y South during AM peak were ignored, that would be a problem. It is not an insignificant number and should be factored into overall analysis.

by Jeremy M on Mar 7, 2011 4:12 pm • link • report

@Michael Perkins
I wouldn't bet the farm on there being an even split between Silver and Orange line trains operating between East Falls Church and Rosslyn. I will hazard a guess that when all is said and done the split will be 8 Silver and 12 Orange. Total number of trains per hour on the branch will remain same at 10 or greater with those trains terminating at Tysons West (WestGate) and returning to VA-772 (Ryan Road Ashburn).

by Sand Box John on Mar 7, 2011 4:30 pm • link • report

I am glad they didn't bother instituting a new line color, but I suspect this move will only exacerbate overcrowding at L'Enfant Plaza during peak hours as commuters traveling from south of Pentagon on the Yellow Line to stations along the Orange + Blue Line in Downtown might decide to do a one-transfer trip rather than wait longer for a Blue Line train.

by Reza on Mar 7, 2011 4:55 pm • link • report

Or, if their final destination is along the Red Line, this change could shift crowds from Metro Center to Gallery Place. It'd be interesting to see if Metro has done internal studies on the impacts of the switch within the three hub stations.

by Reza on Mar 7, 2011 4:58 pm • link • report

This plan is probably the best option, given than an additional Arlington<-->DC Potomac river crossing is not realistic.

I hate to bring up an old topic, but having routing information in Google Maps would go along way to easing any confusion.

by akg on Mar 7, 2011 6:35 pm • link • report

Keep the station names simple!

Waterfront should lose the SEU and that's it.

Navy Yard should stay as it is.

These new, long station names are extremely inelegant, and confusing. We don't need to name a subway station after every single, possible point of interest in the area! Arena Stage can do their own marketing and pay Metro for some ad space. Ditto for the real estate developers around the Navy Yard. Geez.

by nwdcguy on Mar 7, 2011 7:41 pm • link • report

we have lots of rivers in DC

Specifically, two.

Well, if we're in the season for renaming stations, we could pick one and call it Tiber Creek...try finding that body of water

by akg on Mar 7, 2011 10:20 pm • link • report

Bostonians must be smart -- they have had no trouble figuring out that "Kenmore" is the name of the subway station a few blocks from Fenway Park, or that "Airport" is the train stop for Logan International Airport. Something to emulate around here, perhaps?

by Greenbelt Gal on Mar 8, 2011 8:49 am • link • report

I'm with @Peak VT. No one cares where a train comes from--only where it's going. (Buses, too.)

Having two different destinations using the same color is confusing. (on the other hand, two different colors with the same destination is not).

Thus, traveling E-bound on an Orange Line train is confusing. It can go to two different places. Traveling W-bound is not--even if I board at Largo, because I know it's going through Arlington to Vienna.

Likewise, traveling S-bound on a Yellow-line train invites errors by riders ending up in the wrong place.

I'm sure WMATA could never get this operationally correct, but it would make sense to have the trains change color depending on direction of travel. That is, based on their destination. This makes the map difficult, I'll admit, although arrows such as are used to indicate one-way streets might help.

One option would be to call the E-bound train to Largo Silver right now; why wait? When it's W-bound, it can be Orange.

It's important to think about these things as though one is a passenger; a single passenger, making a single trip. Not a train driver, not a map maker, not an operations director. The best solution lies there. What will it be like to be a single passenger at a single point in the system? Do the colors/identities of the trains help me in my travel, or confuse me?

I don't know if my personal solutions are the best, but using the passenger perspective is the best way to search for them. Using this perspective, two destinations for one color is not a good solution.

(For a previous rant on the irrationality of bus numbers, click here)

by Steve O on Mar 8, 2011 10:58 am • link • report

This morning I waited twelve minutes during "rush" hour for a Blue Line train from Rosslyn to Crystal City.

And they want even fewer Blue Line trains on this route?

by Catoe No Mo' on Mar 8, 2011 3:51 pm • link • report

@Catoe No Mo':
No. Your wait of 12 minutes was abnormally low. The wait for a Blue Line train under the plan would not be more than 12 minutes under normal circumstances.

by Matt Johnson on Mar 8, 2011 3:53 pm • link • report

I understand that they're going to need to do this to handle the adding trains from the Silver line and because of the congestion on the orange line. However, as someone who commutes to Rosslyn on the blue line, I think it would be nice if they didn't continually overestimate the overall time savings of this change and try to gloss over the significant impact on many blue line riders.

Page 9 and 10 of the presentation are filled with errors, which makes the change sound much better for most riders than it really is. For example, they say 33,510 riders between B/Y south and DC/MD will benefit, but this clearly includes the 15,568 riders traveling to the west side of the orange line and "downtown west" who will actually see a service decrease from the change, as well as another ~3,000 who travel across the Potomac but originate at Huntington or Eisenhower and will see no service benefit.

They do the same thing with the orange line riders, including the 13,000 riders that board at Vienna and Dunn Loring and will not see a service improvement (although some of them will ultimately be on a less crowded train). And, only the ~2000 downtown orange line riders traveling west of Rosslyn will see any improvement in service, not the stated 12,497.

Somewhat surprisingly, the Green line number is about right (at least for number of passengers affected, we'll get to the time savings in a minute), leaving ~66,000 passengers benefiting, not 108,000.

They also undercount the number negatively affected, leaving out the ~5,000 passengers that travel south from Rosslyn on the blue line during the AM peak period.

The time savings/increase calculations are likewise inaccurate. 15% of the B/Y riders will save three minutes for a total savings of 110 hours, under 10% of the orange riders (assuming no one is unable to get on a train) will save about 2-3 minutes, for a total of 80 hours saved, the reverse orange riders will save about 10 hours combined, and Green Line riders will save about 130 hours, for 330 total hours saved. However, 30% of the blue line riders negatively affected will have to wait six additional minutes for a train, giving a total commute increase of ~600 hours for these riders. Some of these riders will be able to cut their losses by riding across the Potomac on the yellow route, but the total commute time lost throughout the system will still exceed the time gained, despite the greater number of total riders benefiting from the change.

Clearly this is a needed improvement for the orange crush riders, who will see significantly less crowding on 6 of the 19 trains now going through the system and less days where they have trouble getting on any train at all) and going forward for the Silver Line, but there's no need to misrepresent things. This is going to have a significant negative effect on many blue line commuters, both in longer waits and more crowded trains.

Sorry this post is so long (and late), hopefully at least one person reads it. I'd also like to check their estimate of how many riders will divert their routes to match the new service, as well as a more thorough look at how crowded the trains on each line will be under the new scenario.

by Tim G on Mar 8, 2011 11:30 pm • link • report

A couple of people seem very opposed to this change, on the grounds that it will hurt some Blue Line riders, which surprises me somewhat. If the plan leads to an overall increase in quality of service and average shorter trip times, it should be implemented. We can't just keep things static to avoid negatively impacting a subset of riders.

It also seems like Metro is now planning to run the Silver Line past Stadium-Armory, which is quite smart, since it means the dashed part of the Orange Line will be replaced with an extended regular line.

One issuse I do have is that Metro seems to still regard Mt. Vernon as one of the (three!) endpoints of the Yellow Line. Trains need to just run at least to Fort Totten at all hours, for simplicity's sake if nothing else.

by jakeod on Mar 9, 2011 2:36 am • link • report

Clarification: I meant to note that the Yellow Line has three different *northern* endpoints at different times - Mt. Vernon, Fort Totten, and Greenbelt. It of course has FIVE endpoints total under the new plan, counting Huntington and Franconia.

by jakeod on Mar 9, 2011 2:39 am • link • report

@jakeod:
The Yellow Line cannot terminate at Fort Totten during rush hour. Extending all Yellow Line trains to Greenbelt is not feasible either.
Here's why: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/6335/

by Matt Johnson on Mar 9, 2011 7:43 am • link • report

@jakeod
The problem I have is that Metro's statistics on how many people benefit and the time savings are inaccurate. On a daily basis, ~10,000 people will see a benefit, and 6,000 will be negatively affected, and the net result is actually an average increase in trip times over all riders.

I'm actually not totally opposed to the change since something needs to be done about the orange chokepoint through Rosslyn, but I don't like that Metro has continually given inaccurate perceptions about the effect of the changes and I'm not sure that the proposed solution is the best solution.

by Tim G on Mar 9, 2011 9:33 am • link • report

Why was the NY/FL Ave Station not named 2nd & M Street Station from the start. It is not the job of WMATA to make things easier for non locals or anyone not familiar with the area; that should be the job of the use to research beforehand.

If WMATA is going to change the destinations of some trains it needs to be done with thought and consideration. Fix all signs to mention appropriate info update next train and remind the operators to not make mistakes when listing destinations or next stations. Many of the bus routes that were changed in December still have the old destinations and times on nextbus, so I higly doubt WMATA will be able to do this without causing problems.

by kk on Mar 9, 2011 10:37 am • link • report

Regarding the names of stops, I can somewhat understand the rationale of adding the ballpark to Navy Yard if the concern is that people who seldom ride Metrorail might assume that "Stadium-Armory" refers to the baseball stadium. But the long names are definitely onerous. A better solution might be to redo the system map to include some way of indicating major points of interest of that sort (maybe a picture of a baseball near Navy Yard, a football near Morgan Boulevard, and a soccer ball near Stadium-Armory?). Of course, it's really the rider's responsibility to find out where he needs to go and how to get there!

Regarding "King Street/Miami," why stop there? Rename the airport stop to "Reagan Airport/Seattle" because Seattle is the furthest city with a nonstop.

by Rich on Mar 9, 2011 1:34 pm • link • report

@dan reed: Using cardinal directions could be confusing to a lot of people (especially when the lines don't always go in a straight line), and "inbound" and "outbound" are hard to define.

Nevertheless, "inbound" and "outbound" are very useful descriptions for non-local riders who aren't familiar with the stops but just want to get on a train going the right way.

by David desJardins on Mar 10, 2011 12:32 pm • link • report

Let's just keep it "Capitol Riverfront-Navy Yard." The ballpark should be implied as being part of the neighborhood, unless we want to change the other station to "Arena-Gallery Place-Chinatown"!

In the case of NoMa I'm not a fan of naming the station after the neighborhood, since it is an abbreviation and a marketing term rather than a geographical designation. "Florida Ave-Gallaudet U" would be a fine shortening of that station's name, but honestly, because New York Avenue is such a major thoroughfare responsible in part for the area's pre-Metro development, I don't have a problem with the name staying as it is.

by Omar on Mar 11, 2011 11:48 am • link • report

Booo. As someone who's moving to the DC area next month and likely planning on renting in Rosslyn, the reduced blue line service disappoints me. My office is located near the Eisenhower stop on the yellow line, meaning I planned on taking the blue line from Rosslyn to Pentagon and transferring to the yellow line to get to work. Now the blue line service to Pentagon in the morning will be significantly reduced, leaving me with the option of either taking one of the frequent orange line trains all the way through DC to L'Enfant Plaza to connect to the yellow line, or catching one of the few blue line trains from Rosslyn to Pentagon and therefore increasing the time I'm stuck waiting for a blue line train and also limiting my options on arrival times at work in the morning & getting home in the afternoon. *sigh*

by Aaron on Mar 11, 2011 1:19 pm • link • report

@AKG: I know exactly where to find Tiber Creek! It runs through my house when it rains!

by Basement Gnome on Mar 11, 2011 11:08 pm • link • report

One thing that hasn't been raised is that stations will have part-time service on certain lines and no way to indicate this fact. A simple solution, based on NYC's subway, is to use squares or diamonds on the signage within stations to indicate rush hour service (and non rush-hour on the Yellow Line to Ft. Totten). At the entrances to the stations affected, prominent signs showing the colored symbols with their hours of operation should be displayed.

by Chuck Coleman on Mar 13, 2011 9:09 pm • link • report

@Rich

+1 on using symbols to convey destination information.

by Chuck Coleman on Mar 13, 2011 9:10 pm • link • report

@Chuck Coleman:
You mean signs like this one at Fort Totten?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39017545@N02/4580148101/

by Matt Johnson on Mar 13, 2011 9:11 pm • link • report