Comments on Hine project is opportunity too great to pass up - Greater Greater Washington

Comment by Trulee Pist

Tue, 19 Apr 2011 00:11:29 EDT

It's funny that the original author says the plaza on C Street graciously engages the Adolf Cluss-designed Market Hall in conversation. The development generally does not encourage views of Eastern Market, now visible and attractive to residents to the south and east through the Hine playgound. This development puts a 4-story building along the north side of C Street (that black blob on the left of the picture in the blog post captioned, "Weekend configuration for the plaza. Image from Stanton/Eastbanc.") That North Residential Building kind of screws up the conversation. Right now, someone approaching Eastern Market from the big Capitol Hill residential neighborhood to the east or north would cut through the alley from 8th to 7th and have Eastern Market framed in view for a whole block.

Now the black blob blocks views of Eastern Market, and you do not see the market until you have walked that whole block and gotten to the intersection of 7th and C.

Don't say the plaza generates views of Eastern Market. If it did, the developer would have shown that view in one of the 57 Power Point slides in the CHRS sales presentation. You'll find no representation of the view of Eastern Market in any of those slides.

Why doesn't this development do more to highlight Eastern Market, not hide it?

Comment by Naomi

Thu, 31 Mar 2011 21:56:02 EDT

I, for one, welcome more development in our Eastern Market neighborhood. We are first time home buyers who just purchased a small place near 11th and C SE, and I cannot wait for that abandoned Junior High to be torn down. We desperately need more retail in this area, imho.

Comment by b

Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:54:22 EDT

The earlier thread about the Eastern Market plaza being "dangerous" are dubious claims at best. What MPD data does Mr. Metzger have to support that assertion? In relation to low overall crime rates in this micro section of the Hill, the Crime Reports data shows even less criminal activity (violent and nv) than Barracks Row, which is not terribly significant either.

I'd agree with @TimK about Hines -- I witnessed plenty of bad after-school behavior at the Metro Plaza/bus transfer spot but not the kind of threats that should restrict open public space for this project. Even the current minimally used Hines property is safe to wander around after dark.

Comment by Larry Janezich

Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:27:17 EDT

EMMCA is drafting a statement for the ANC6b Special Call meeting on Hine as well as for the HPRB Hearing on April 28. A summary of the concerns voiced at their Wednesday night meeting can be viewed here. http://emmcablog.org/

Community input in the form of thoughtful comments endorsing or criticizing the current design concept would be both helpful and welcome.

Comment by Marcus

Fri, 18 Mar 2011 03:26:20 EDT

Mr. Pate,
What an excellent and considered response. We are all fortunate that you are involved in the process.

Comment by David C

Fri, 18 Mar 2011 00:09:47 EDT

Marcus,

I don't think striving for success is a "particularly high standard".

I don't either, which is why I never said that.

The current design, however unfinished, will be what the reality becomes if we don't use the opportunity given to us now by the ANC process to utilize our voices to make it the "best possible outcome".

But here's the thing. No one, and I mean no one is saying "OK looks like you boys have done a great job, no need to check back in with us, just build whatever you want." So why frame it that way? Everybody wants to see this design continue to evolve to something better - even Stanton.

I realize it is easier to make comments and satarical[sic] polls on a blog

It's actually quite difficult - if you're going to do it right.

than it is to put forth an actual effort towards the question at hand.

Why does it have to be either/or. Can't my satirical poll be an actual effort towards making Hine better, by mocking a poll that I think is destructive to the process?

How can the hine proposal be made better?

That's an excellent question. Perhaps you should answer it instead of attacking me.

Comment by Brian Pate

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:49:48 EDT

No need to be oblique, Ryan. I stand by my positions—feel free to call me out by name. I have a much longer response to your post at www.anc6b05.com. But, briefly, let the below redacted response correct a few assertions:

1) I started Googling at 3:00PM, not 5:00PM. I actually took a half-day off of my paying job to study the project in greater detail before the meeting, to include the developer’s original proposal, the ANC’s previous resolutions on the matter, USGBC documentation and any current thinking on reconciliation of smart growth and historic district principles.

2) Nope—I’m not a LEED AP, but I do have a functional knowledge of the rating system and its application. Correct—the open space criterion is not in LEED-ND, it’s in LEED New Construction (SS 5.2). And yes, it’s not a requirement. For the record, I don’t think I ever explicitly connected the open space requirement to LEED-ND, rather I cited the appropriately numbered LEED NC criterion and used it to lobby for preservation of the center courtyard as a public space. As to the appropriateness of the LEED ND rating, the development consists of three buildings, not one. The suggested standard is two buildings. Payton rightly points out that LEED ND integrates the sustainability of each individual building into its overall rating scheme, thus LEED NC for each building most likely would be incorporated.

3) This is a negotiation. The developers are seeking advantage, and so is the community. What will be considered a community benefit in the PUD? What will not? We’re staking out positions and determining parameters. Negotiations can be acrimonious, or they can be cordial. Kept commitments, transparency and forthrightness from all parties will go a long way toward ensuring the later.

4) Lastly, the post asserts that many new Commissioners are inherently anti-Stanton (or anti-development—it’s not clear). This is simply not true. Not a single current ANC 6B Commissioner, neither “old guard” nor “new guard,” has said a word about who the developers are, starting over or trying to kill the project. In fact, despite differences on many matters, internally we’ve committed to working with Stanton, to, in the words of Dave Alpert, “make it better.” However, that does not abrogate the Commission’s responsibility for due diligence, it does not mean we should be soft on the developers and it does not exempt me from a responsibility to listen to, consider and incorporate the concerns of my constituents.

I look forward to your continued commentary on the project. Indeed, I am looking to the broader GGW community for thoughtful considerations on the reconciliation I mentioned in point number one. There are plenty of shrill voices saying the development should be two stories high, and plenty that seem only able to say “it should be even bigger”. Both seem to be plucking numbers from the ether, to suit a limited agenda or dogmatically support a philosophy. Where are the logically based frames of reference, with scientific rationale to support them? How can we improve the architecture to make the project more visually appealing? In these down economic times, how can we reasonably hold the developer to their original commitments? Perhaps you and I can start that dialogue by taking a trip to AIA’s new Neighborhoods Go Green! Exhibit? I’ll even buy you a soda and a hot dog.

Fervently Googling,
Brian Pate
Freshman Commissioner, ANC 6B

Comment by Marcus

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 23:34:19 EDT

David C,
This project will outlive us, our kids, and will be a part of this city I love for many years to come so I don't think striving for success is a "particularly high standard".

I realize it is easier to make comments and satarical polls on a blog than it is to put forth an actual effort towards the question at hand.

How can the hine proposal be made better?

Since this is the time now to do so, not in 2 months or after the piles have been driven, that is what I will be doing.

Comment by David C

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:26:02 EDT

Marcus,

I'm just criticizing the poll, which is particularly loaded. The definition of success is "the best possible outcome". Don't you think that is a particularly high standard? And don't you think that asking if a project, which is still being worked, needs more work is sort of a pointless exercise? It is an unfinished design, of course it needs more work - that's what unfinished means? If the poll should be "tipped towards the side of making changes" (I thought we weren't focusing on us vs. them, for vs. against?) then what is the point of the poll? It's about as valuable as mine. Which is my point.

I think criticizing the poll as overtly biased is productive. Why don't you?

Comment by Marcus

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:50:30 EDT

David C,
I hope you didn't spend much time on your poll.

I think Dan is on to something that if we are going to discuss this issue why not be productive.

Instead of us vs. them, for vs. against, why not focus on the details of the proposal to improve it. In essence crowd source an improvement.

Ryan's article places the wedge I do not think you need to drive it the rest of the way.

And I for one find the poll fine and it shows the results. It may be tipped towards the side of making changes but shouldn't that be our focus now while we have the planners wanting our input?

Comment by David C

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 21:24:00 EDT

Frankly that poll sucks. There are two No responses and one Yes. And the Yes is so over-the-top that no one will choose it. And the third choice has this long, loaded response. See mu poll below about the poll

Is the hineschool poll fair:

1. Yes it is more fair than God
2. No, it could be mildly more fair
3. No, polls should respect all people and our American values the way that I do because I love my children and America's soldiers and the hineschool poll should uphold these same values.

Comment by Dan

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:58:00 EDT

Am I the only one who thinks we are FAR beyond referring to people as supporters of this project or not. It seems juvenile. What is being discussed is how to maximize the end-result. A development is going in the space that Hine now occupies-the question is how can the developers plan be improved.

I really doubt anyone thinks it's perfect, so if not, why not. And because I think it is helpful to the discussion I will link to the Hine Poll that is going around: http://hineschool.wordpress.com/

EVERYTHING is negotiable and this plan is not 'take it or leave it'-so lets move the discussion towards what extra benefits we can bring to the greater area. I for one, don't think an extra floor adds much community benefit and can certainly see the argument that doing 'to much' risks the fabric of what attracts many people to Eastern Market. Either to live there or to visit.

So, how can the plan be improved?

Comment by Ryan Velasco

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 19:48:47 EDT

Payton-Thank you for confirming what I suspected but, admittedly, hadn't the opportunity to confirm in my own research---that there is no 20% open space requirement under LEED-ND.

To address an earlier comment: No, I am not on the payroll at Stanton/Eastbanc. Not remotely connected.

Thanks to everyone for your analysis. I'm hoping to connect with supporters of this project and if you are interested in future updates, please e-mail me directly at ryanmatthewvelasco {at} gmail.com

Comment by Payton

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:48:39 EDT

LEED-ND has no open space requirement, and no minimum project size. Indeed, among the first developments certified under LEED-ND was a high-rise occupying a full quarter block of downtown Portland; that fed concerns that LEED-ND could be used to greenwash infill buildings that "should" be certifying under LEED-NC. (ND gives more credits for smart locations, whereas NC has a greater emphasis on building systems. That's a moot point now, since ND now requires that buildings be individually certified.) As Alex B mentions, there's a credit for "access to civic spaces," which this project would certainly achieve since it's next to a square.

The pedestrian passage idea is being tried at CityCenter and has similarities to Cady's Alley in Georgetown. I'm not convinced that it would necessarily prove a magnet for crime just because it's in SE.

Yes, a hotel at this site would probably do quite well and be quite an asset to the neighborhood -- particularly for supporting local restaurants -- but financing is easier for apartments than hotels right now.

@Thayer: it's "bris-de-soleil." Silly French.

Comment by Trulee Pist

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:26:47 EDT

Thx, TimK.

Comment by Wendy Blair

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:22:05 EDT

David Alpert,
Is Ryan Velasco on the Stanton/Eastbanc payroll? As he well knows, the Hine School development opportunity is in no danger of being passed up. Mr. Velasco has himself participated in many, many discussions about sale of public land, development of an RFP, evaluationof competing bids, City Council hearings, -- the process.
The discussion last night at St. Coletta School was just the beginning -- a first showing of architectural plans -- unveiled just days ago. Many citizens still have not seen these plans -- on Capitol Hill, and in other parts of the city. This is an enormous development, with wide economic impacts. Right now, because Capitol Hill is an Historic District, we are constrained to consider only issues that concern the Historic Preservation Review Board's hearing in April.
Now is exactly the time for neighbors to make suggestions about this initial set of detailed plans – as they have been asked, as is their duty, and as they have every right to do.
HPRB itself has said it may expect to see several sets of drawings over the coming months, as problems identified are resolved, for this very large project.
Neighbors’ comments will help guide HPRB, developers Stanton/Eastbanc, architect Weinstein, and the city's politicians and planners, in maximizing the potential of this public property and its potential for the city as a whole. Are Mr. Velaquez and GGW suggesting they should not?
Sincerely,
Wendy Blair

Comment by Alex B.

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:21:56 EDT

Capitol Hill is definitely urban.

Also, the premise of buying into a community and then hoping it will never change is a false one. Cities are dynamic places, they are constantly changing and evolving. When they don't, that's when they wither and die.

There's just no way that the proposed buildings overwhelm anything. We're talking about a 6-7 story building fronting on Penn Ave (with a 150'+ right of way) and the Eastern Market Metro plaza - hundreds of feet wide. Nothing is being overwhelmed or overshadowed here.

If anything, the project ought to be more dense than it is. It's smack dab in the middle of an urban neighborhood, practically on top of a Metro station.

Comment by David C

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:15:52 EDT

mikak, are you under the impression that Capitol Hill isn't an urban neighborhood? Because that isn't my opinion. It's very dense, served by transit, etc... What would you consider an urban neighborhood? I live on Capitol Hill and I consider it an urban neighborhood. Urban neighborhoods also have lots of open space, sky, charm, and character. If you don't want Capitol Hill to urbanize, you're about 150 years late.

Comment by TimK

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:12:30 EDT

@Trulee,

Certainly. At the time, my child was going to Tyler elem, and we would be walking to the Metro at that time. Fights broke out in the Plaza weekly, and it was a toxic environment. On one occaison, ten to twelve kids "just playing" slammed into my daughter and I so hard it knocked me off balance and her down.

On another, we stopped at Dunkin Donuts, and the inevitable fight broke out. I tapped the shoulder of a pair of MPD officers (yeah, yeah, insert donut/cop joke), and pointed it out to them. He responded, yeah, I know, it's why we're here every day. I'll get it in a second. He then grabbed his coffee and walked out and broke it up. Frankly, I don't blame him for his unhurried attitude. After all, it was fairly typical.

My personal favorite was when I was called "cracker" by several young men. While walking with my daughter.

These were the most memorable, and the occasions it most personally involved me. They aren't the only ones. Nor do I include the second hand ones I've heard about.

I don't miss Hine on that spot. At all. I'm saddened this behavior is acceptable here, especially as allowing it fails the kids involved more than anyone else.

Comment by mikak

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:39:36 EDT

It’s not surprising that urban-centric posters approve of building “big” on the Hine-Eastern Market block, but what surprises me is that they chose to live on Capitol Hill. Those of us who object to the height, scale, and density of the proposed development moved here because it is a walkable, primarily residential community of historic two-to three-story town homes and shops with lots of open space, sky, charm, and character. If we had wanted an urban neighborhood, we would have moved elsewhere. We are not, however, opposed to development, or more retail, or offices, apartments and condos. Far from it. We welcome it at appropriate places like Metro stops, but we feel it must respect--in scale, height, and design--the overall “character” of this community as earlier developments have done. Most of the Hill’s commercial buildings were themselves originally 2-3 story town homes, and those built as commercial buildings, mainly in the 20th century, have honored the general elevations on their blocks by limiting height to 3 and 4 stories. Few of these buildings add much to the aesthetics of our streetscapes, but they don’t overwhelm the streets either, and only a couple (named in earlier postings) are so self-assertive and idiosyncratic that they detract from the aesthetic of the block they’re in. It seems to me that a 4-story building with underground parking on the Hine site would serve everyone’s goals. It would provide ample space for new retail, offices, and apartments within a neighborhood-appropriate scale. Anything higher would be an obvious departure from the staggered roof-lines of the Eastern Market neighborhood; anything as massive as the proposed building would be a giant step toward urbanization; and anything as lacking in architectural coherence, restraint, modesty, and elegance as the proposed design is likely to be a massive eyesore just where the neighborhood most needs a beautiful, gracious, welcoming gateway. Let's be sure we want the Hill to urbanize before we approve a project like this, because once it starts there will be no way back.

Comment by Trulee Pist

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:20:27 EDT

@ Layman,

The Overbeck Tapes are your friend.

John Harrod started the Saturday flea market in the late 1970s, and with Tom Rall's help, extended that to a Sunday flea market in 1983.

Get it from the horse's mouth: http://bit.ly/eJrOdv

Comment by Trulee Pist

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:53:14 EDT

@ TimK

You tell Commissioner Metzger, "I'd be interested in knowing what type of crime you are referring to" around Eastern Market Metro. Good question!

I'd be interested in hearing more from you about how when Hine was in operation it certainly had a violent period from 3:15 to 5 pm. Care to elaborate?

Comment by Richard Layman

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:20:33 EDT

FWIW, the Old Naval Hospital rehab will provide access to community space. There is also the library. I think the issue is that the latter building closes.

FWIW/2, before this process, I had recommended programming the first two floors of this site as retail-community-arts space as part of an overall master plan. This wasn't done. See, North Hall should be converted to food related uses. And the Hine school auditorium was/is a great space comparatively speaking to anything in North Hall. I don't think it makes sense to have art in Eastern market, as the market needs to be able to have added food uses to remain competitive.

But because the city issued a broad RFP, rather than having conducted a more thorough site plan, that never could happen.

Note that I don't know when the flea market started, but it was in the early to mid 1990s, because that's when the crafts fair on Saturdays and Sundays started.

Comment by TimK

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:48:25 EDT

@Norman Metzger,

Are you really comparing the Ellen Wilson dwellings (which are far more analogous to the current Potomac Gardens) with this proposed design?

How is the current Eastern Market Metro Plaza a "crime spot"? There's some panhandling there, and when Hine was in operation it certainly had a violent period from 3:15 to 5 pm, but since Hine closed, I'm hard pressed to think of it as a criminal hang out. I walk through there every day, and see you there most mornings. It can't be that bad if you frequent it so often.

Perhaps you could elaborate on what you're basing this on. Your experience in the area is vast, and I'd be interested in knowing what type of crime you are referring to.

Comment by Hine School Poll

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:29:31 EDT

I was emailed this poll a few minutes ago, its trying to gauge where the greater community stands on the current proposal. Should be interesting to see where people stand.

Comment by goldfish

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:01:52 EDT

And another thing -- what the hill needs is small-tom-medium sized public meeting space. The North market is sometimes rented out for that purpose, as well as the Masonic Naval Lodge. But otherwise, public meeting space is expensive and hard to come by.

Public meeting space would be a nice complement to a hotel, and again, would generate vibrant foot traffic. And being close tot he Capital, I expect that there are some good opportunities there.

Comment by goldfish

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:54:31 EDT

The 7th Street residential building would be better if it were a hotel -- it would generate more evening foot traffic and better support the local businesses.

My guess is that a good quality, medium-size hotel so close to the Capital would do rather well.

Comment by M

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:51:06 EDT

All glass buildings, girded by steel or brick, are hideous and extravagantly expensive and inefficient to cool and heat. I'm disappointed.

Comment by Eric G

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:00:58 EDT

@andrew (Mar 16, 2011 1:23 pm): I totally agree with his post. My concern is that this architect has a history of pulling this trick before-- saying this design is derived from victorian influences -- yet there is nothing to support that notion. Just because someone says that doesn't make it a successful translation. I would urge the community to be more demanding in that regard. But let me be clear, I think there is plenty of room to bring in modern aspects and design. It just needs to be done in a way that harmonious-- and not so ugly.

Comment by Norman Metzger

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:53:18 EDT

I'm the "senior commissioner "who should know better" than to question the provision of an open courtyard as part of the plans. First, I'm not the "senior" commissioner, since others have had much longer tenure; surely the writer didn't mean I was old. But I indeed do "know better" or at least better than the writer. I know that the open Eastern Market plaza is a crime spot; more to the point, I remember how the open interior of the Ellen Wilson dwellings bedeviled the police and residents as an unremitting scene of problems. As I said at the meeting, the feel-good notion of an open courtyard may be an example of "hell paved by good intentions." Put more helpfully, if we indeed agree on a courtyard, better think hard about what to do with it, especially in the evenings. I kind of like a 24-hr Petanque Court, but there are of course many problems with that suggestion.

Comment by Charles W.

Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:42:09 EDT

Thank you for a reasoned analysis of this proposed project. As a neighborhood resident I agree with those who prefer as much density as possible in this space. The people of this city and region have invested many billions of dollars to build a subway system and this city-owned site should take full advantage of that investment. Specific objections to design can be addressed but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Comment by TimK

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:28:25 EDT

Trullee Pist,

Sorry, should have been clearer. I was referring to the 800 block of C.

Comment by David C

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:41:16 EDT

Whether the flea market predates Hine or not doesn't matter. The question is "Do we want to a flea market, and if so where to do we put it?" I think most people on the Hill want one and want it on this site. Maybe there is a better place for it, but that hasn't really been suggested.

This plaza is really not very large and will serve the flea market as well as allow for programmed space. So it isn't really open space as much as programmed community space.

Comment by retrostyleguy

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:37:05 EDT

Ditto what Richard Layman said re plenty of open space around the area for the flea market. I suppose this proposed piazza was included in the design to appease opponents of the development, but the flea market wasn't always there. A building stood there for most of the site's history, and I assume it grew out of the need to put something in that empty place of a surface parking lot after the building came down. Or does the flea market predate demolition? I would think that closer proximity to the metro entrance be better for the vendors, or are there WMATA prohibitions against that? Though there couldn't be, because the Clarendon metro stop has a market outside its entrance. Also, where is it going to be relocated during construction?

Comment by CUW

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:57:31 EDT

I'm not sure what the point of referencing all the neighborhood buildings is in their PDF plan when they don't borrow any influences from any of those buildings, aside from maybe 1 brick shape.

The renderings make it appear to be the biggest and tallest set of buildings on Pennsylvania in that area, and I'm not sure why it needs to be that way. The simplicity of Eastern Market is that it is not tall and overpowering...it's quaint stores in row houses and residential row houses with character. This plan is not victorian or anything else, it's just modern and ugly.

Comment by David C

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:25:25 EDT

I actually like most of the buildings. Are they OMG you have to go see them spectacular? No. But they're suitable for the area and use I think. I'd also like them to be a little taller, but I realize that's politically impossible.

Comment by norb

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:12:42 EDT

I wish they could add more floors. Despite some design flaws, I think this will be a greate development.I'm not aware of any 20 percent open space requirement in LEED-ND?? That is surely wrong. In any case, the site sits next to a park, so I'd say under ND it would get points for that, as well as the reopening of the street into a home zone.

Comment by Fritz

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:06:39 EDT

The building designs are just....ugly. They don't seem to fit in at all with most people's concepts of Capitol Hill, and seem to mirror the uglyish building across the street (where Le Pain Quotidian is housed).

That area already has lots of "open space". But is the point to have open space for the sake of open space? Or should it be to have open space so that it can be occupied by more than just pigeons and homeless people?

Comment by Larry Janezich

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:58:01 EDT

Regarding the lack of community engagement: I don't think this is the foundational argument of critics of the development. ("Opponents" seems to apply to those opposed to any development - and the project is well beyond that point. It seems to me there has been - and continues to be -plenty of opportunity for community involvement.) I would be hard pressed to characterize any of the active players concerned with this issue as "opponents."

What was lacking was the community voice in the decision regarding whether the Hine school should be closed and the community voice in what would happen to the site after it was closed. The process for the selection of a developer was deeply flawed in the case of at LEAST one important community organization. This point goes to one of the real foundtion arguments of critics - too many decisions about the community being made by too few people.

Many residents are dissappointed that what is being built is different from what was proposed: a largely residential project for high end condominiums, with no Shakespeare Theater, (apparently) no hotel, and no Tiger Woods Foundation. And further disappointed in the long delay occasioned by financing issues.

It seems to me that the three groups of active residents who live closest to the project are trying to ensure that the development takes their concerns into consideration. And their concerns regarding the impact on the community are felt to a lesser degree by those farther removed from the project. Being farther removed, they have less at stake and less reason to get involved.

There are many easy dismissals about the subjectivity of design. And that's true. But the early massing concepts do not inspire confidence regarding the "taste and grace" standard. I'd be interested in posters' opinions of the two other Weinstein projects adjacent to the Hine project: The Hospice Association Building across from Eastern Market, and the building on the corner of 7th and Pennsylvania, SE, housing Le Pain Quotidian. My own are not favorable.

Thanks for the detailed update.

Comment by Alex B.

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:38:30 EDT

LEED-ND is a LEED certification for Neighborhood Design. It is generally focused on larger redevelopment areas, not individual buildings like this project would essentially be. Given the contained nature of this site, I would assume that the developers would likely pursue something other than LEED-ND - but I could be wrong.

Also, as far as I know, there are no requirements for open space as a part of LEED-ND, merely potential credits that a project could aim for.

Comment by Trulee Pist

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:30:03 EDT

@TimK,

I am not aware of any curb cuts on the 300 block of 8th Street, other than the two alley entrances. Have you confused this with some other row of houses?

Comment by Thayer-D

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:17:59 EDT

On second thought, the twisted columned office building is a joke. It's never been done, so it's original, so it's good? Try ugly and trite. And the breeze-de-solei gone wild building facing Eastern Market!!! Epic fail. Breaking up the building is the right thing to do and the public space is nice enough, but some of those facades are grad school cool. Try again.

Comment by David

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:42:19 EDT

Is this publicly accessible interior courtyard designed to be defensible space? From the renderings it looks like a 24/7 pedestrian walking mall that won't have the kind of activity necessary to keep it safe. I can't think of any similar successful courtyard in DC with such an arrangement. People are accustomed to Eastern Market during the bustle of the weekend. It's a fairly sleepy place during the week.

Comment by Neil Flanagan

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:00:05 EDT

What is brutalism?

Comment by David Alpert

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:40:40 EDT

eb: The courtyard is not going to be fenced. The part of it that is in line with C Street will become a low-speed street during weekdays with parking. Then the whole thing will be switched to being pedestrians only on weekends.

Comment by eb

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:39:21 EDT

I meant the sunlight on 7th and C.

Comment by eb

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:37:35 EDT

I find it distractingly tall and modern in the images they present. In at least one case, they've compared to another building on 8th street that should be torn down rather than emulated. Having faux brick or 1/4" face brick does not make something Victorian. In fact, Victorian is in the tiny details and materials, something that I see nothing of in this image.

Given that this building (or a reasonable facsimile) is pretty much inevitable at this point, is the courtyard going to be gated or 100% accessible at all hours?

Overall I think this kind of detracts from the Market area (N Carolina and 8th) while only making Pennsylvania Ave look more like lower Connecticut Ave. Obviously, Penn Ave could use the uplift, but I'm disappointed that it brings down the Eastern Market side. It's definitely going to cut down on the sunlight at 8th and C and I'm sure we'll lose many of the vendors that use the parking lot.

Comment by TimK

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:33:51 EDT

@andrew,

Part of the reason the building fails to engage the street along 8th is that the residents specifically did not want street level retail there. That would have engaged that particular street a lot better than the current plan.

Far better than the curb cuts and 1970's houses across the street.

Comment by andrew

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:23:23 EDT

So, I like where the architect drew her influences from.

However, I cannot, for the life of me, see how those influences translate to the design of the new buildings. (They translated intricate Victorian brickwork into....two differently colored bricks and yellow concrete panels?)

Another concern I have is the number of access points to each building -- namely, they seem to span the entire block, and only have one door. They fail to interact with the street at even the most basic level (and if I'm looking at the plans correctly, it looks like a few of the buildings will even have a basement moat around part of their perimeter, which would be extremely anti-urban if true). This design pattern is foreign to this area.

The brick office building with the exposed beams already looks dated -- somehow reminiscent of a 1990s medical building. That said, it's still the best of the bunch, and although I quite like the overall site plan, I *loathe* the facades of the buildings contained within it. I cannot fathom how she thinks a neo-brutalist building can fit into Pennsylvania Ave SE, while maintaining architectural sensitivity to the surroundings.

I think a lot more people would be more excited about this project if the buildings were less ugly and flat.

Comment by Richard Layman

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:50:15 EDT

If LEED-ND prioritizes open space (and with that specific number) at a site located within 100 feet of a heavy rail transit stop, then the criteria for obtaining such a designation are incredibly suspect.

You make good points about the piazza. My only problem with it is that there is plenty of similar space all around this location, that is underutilized already (two pieces of EM Metro Plaza, North Hall plaza, the space in front of the Natatorium, the space in front of Port City Java, the pieces of Seward Square, and the pocket parks at Independence at 7th and at 8th Streets.

Comment by Thayer-D

Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:43:15 EDT

Very interesting. Nice mix of facades and styles. I agree with the poster that the neo-brutalist building leaves something to be desired, but beyond that some innovative takes on the neighborhood vocabulary.