The street car will surely bring in wealthy white people, as it will every other color. There's a lot of fear about the changing demographics for many old time black DC residents just as there was for many long time white residents back in the 50's, only then it was called racism. I think it's simply fear of the unknown and dosen't need to be made into a bigger deal than that. If the residents of Anacostia should really not want the streetcar (vote) then I'm sure there are many other areas in the city that would love to have it (ahhem, Georgia Ave). But before we go there, I agree with the last statement whole hartidly...
"Education and public trust are critical to the success of the project". Maybe if they start building all the routes at once the disruption (gentrification) could be mitigated by spreading out development preasures.

by Thayer-D on Mar 29, 2011 8:44 am • link • report

Why do we need a streetcar line at a cost of $50-$60 million when we could just run a circulator bus on a similar route and then put the money we save to a better use?

by Alan on Mar 29, 2011 8:47 am • link • report

The argument for streetcars is an economic one. Many studies have born out that the permenance of street cars encourages development (that otherwise would happen in an auto-dependant context). Also, studies show people would much rather ride a tram than a bus. It's about smart growth. That's not to say there couldn't be some coordination with minor routes on circulator buses.

by Thayer-D on Mar 29, 2011 8:52 am • link • report

Clearly, the only intelligent thing to do is run it down MLK.

The place looks like crap, and the sooner you can drive those business out and replace them with something useful you're money. Killing parking on the street should do the trick.

Oh, wait, is that block busting?

by charlie on Mar 29, 2011 9:04 am • link • report

How about keeping the streetcar east of the river and have it run from Minnesota Ave to Anacostia.

Hell cover the whole Ward 7-8.
Build a line that goes from Deanwood all the way down to Eastover. Don't make a connection across the river at all.
Then everyone should be happy.

But notice this, the majority east of the river probably wouldn't care one way or the over from a bus vs streetcar as long as it gets them from A to B. Don't streetcars have less seats? If its one thing I know about people over its that when one public transit they love their seats.

by Slick Pulla Ward 7 on Mar 29, 2011 9:16 am • link • report

>Why do we need a streetcar line at a cost of $50-$60 million when we could just run a circulator bus on a similar route and then put the money we save to a better use?

Streetcars and buses aren't the same. Here is a list of things streetcars do that buses don't.

by BeyondDC on Mar 29, 2011 9:22 am • link • report

I like the idea of having different putting each direction of the line of different streets. This is a good compromise with car traffic.
To the comment about why are we spending 50-60 million rather than a bus. That seems like a steal to me, and should improve the area considerably, whereas a circulator bus will have minimal impact on development. Also street cars should be less impacted by gas prices.

by Matt R on Mar 29, 2011 9:31 am • link • report

And just to provide some balance to beyondDC's points:

http://www.humantransit.org/2011/02/sorting-out-rail-bus-differences.html

http://www.humantransit.org/2009/07/streetcars-an-inconvenient-truth.html

And for lots of reading: http://www.humantransit.org/streetcars-trams/

Are the capacity, operating cost, and passenger attraction differences worth tens of millions of dollars? That's a question of priorities.

by EJ on Mar 29, 2011 9:42 am • link • report

As someone who is both for the streetcar and against the erosion of affordable housing (which relates directly to the very valid displacement concerns amongst longtime residents), perhaps these two issues could be tied together. Streetcar advocates could get together with affordable housing advocates and push for policy that incorporated both issues. Or at the very least, actively support each other. Both are ways to create sustainable communities.

If the streetcar brings new development to the area (which it will), but none of the people who will be working the new service jobs can afford to live nearby, are you really creating a more sustainable place?

Also, the city should be strategic about this. If there are communities that want a streetcar (and happen to be on the long range streetcar system plan), they should be the first to get one. I believe Portland, OR had conducted surveys of neighborhoods’ attitudes to determine where to lay tracks first. There is no better way to educate than to do it right somewhere else in the city. Then other communities will be asking for streetcars. On the other hand, if it is not done correctly and the streetcar leads to widespread displacement and gentrification, than that would be a different story.

by Lou on Mar 29, 2011 9:44 am • link • report

I'd vote or option 3 or 6 because they cover the largest ground. But, I do not know the area well.

Residents are still skeptical about DDOT's plan to build a streetcar there and many fear that it will displace the majority black community.

What? Black people are allergic to streetcars?

Some residents articulated fears that the streetcar will bring wealthier, white residents to Anacostia, ultimately displacing folks currently living in the community.

Apparently, nobody considers the fact that the urban development brought by the streetcar could benefit themselves.

It is funny how Washingtonians are supposed to be very progressive, but are in reality pretty much opposed to any change, and hence hard-core conservative. Whether it's poor students turning Georgetown into a ghetto, or rich white folks in Anacostia, Washingtonians don't no new intruders in their neighborhood.

Let's call it the redneck mentality of DC.

by Jasper on Mar 29, 2011 9:48 am • link • report

That argument about children's safety is just begging for an explanation. How, Mr. Lee, is streetcar construction any more dangerous to children than the dozens of street construction projects that happen every year in your district? How, Mr. Lee, is a streetcar more dangerous to children than the dozens of bus lines in your district? I spent my entire childhood living a block away from a streetcar line in Pittsburgh, and I assure you, even the most slow-footed of my friends knew how to avoid getting hit by one.

by tom veil on Mar 29, 2011 9:49 am • link • report

Are the capacity, operating cost, and passenger attraction differences worth tens of millions of dollars? That's a question of priorities.

It is absolutely without a doubt worth it if you can think more than 15 years into the future.

by MLD on Mar 29, 2011 9:54 am • link • report

@Slick Pulla Ward 7: Don't make a connection across the river at all. Then everyone should be happy.

LOL! You don't want gentrifiers to get a taste of the (well-kept secret) amenities. But sorry to say that word is leaking out, because the St Albans Hockey team practices at Fort DuPont, and DC Wave practices at Deanwood.

by goldfish on Mar 29, 2011 9:54 am • link • report

I'm guessing the $20M price tag for the CSX alignment doesn't count the cost of buying the land from CSX. Is there even any indication that they want to sell it, or if they do, that they can? The last time I talked to Gabe Klein about it, he said that CSX's position was that they might want to reactivate the line at some point. And I seem to recall a big to-do about the fact that CSX only owned easements, and that those easements might not be transferable to a transit line.

I think the CSX alignment is probably the best because it's cheap, doesn't impact traffic and will have no traffic to deal with - plus the original design included a parallel bike path, but I wonder what makes them think it's possible now - after claiming for years that it is not.

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 10:00 am • link • report

Regarding running the streetcar along MLK, I'd be concerned about how narrow the street already is, but not for the sake of parking - it's for the sake of congestion. If the streetcar is as successful as we hope it would be, it will drive development on the parking lots and empty lots around MLK. The resultant traffic increase (even if it's minor) will clog up that road, and therefore the streetcar, significantly. Better options go around at least some of MLK but stay on that side of the freeway. Putting it on the other side would be a waste.

by OctaviusIII on Mar 29, 2011 10:12 am • link • report

I'll bet the area had streetcars 50-60 years ago and thrived. I'd just go back to the old route, because it's likely that development patterns today aren't that much different from the ones that came with the first street cars. If all of the choices are narrow then go to where the streetcars would pose the least noise or annoyances which would be existing commercial areas. Congestion has not killed Georgetown, Adams Morgan, or U Street, all of which were struggling at one point or another. Takoma Park is a mess on the MD side, but that has not inhibited its vitality. There's a lot of distrust in Anacostia, but as Marion Barry illustrates, it's often been used to advance the careers of cynical petty despots rather getting redressed.

by Richq on Mar 29, 2011 10:19 am • link • report

Streetcar advocates could get together with affordable housing advocates and push for policy that incorporated both issues.

Is housing in Anacostia somehow unaffordable?

I keep pointing this out over and over again-- DC is biased against economic development in the way of business and commerce. Trying to sell people on the streetcar by pointing to the benefits it provides by way of economic development is a losing argument. Opening businesses is considered a "sketchy" activity in DC. If you want to help Anacostia and reduce displacement, spend those tens of millions of dollars on giving the residents jobs with the DC government, or use the money to fund some non-profit that provides social services and use the money to hire locals to provide those services.

The inevitable result of economic development is going to be to draw people in who want economic and commercial activity (outsiders) and alienate those who don't want it (the locals).

by JustMe on Mar 29, 2011 10:22 am • link • report

Out of all the options, I like 7, 8, and 9 best because ALL of them bypass running cars down MLK, which IMO is a nonstarter.

I doubt that wealthy residents of any race will travel EOTR just to use the streetcars. Why? When you can simply go to H street for a better experience.

Streetcars will have minimal if any impact on the 14k jobs @the new DHS. Likely, they'll have several shuttles between it and Anacostia metro. For others, they can literally walk across Congress Heights Metro's parking lot and bam! You're on campus.

by HogWash on Mar 29, 2011 10:29 am • link • report

It's a shame that Marion Barry has come out against this. The constituents of Ward 8 will believe anything he says so now no matter how hard you try to educate this community on the benefits of the streetcars and how it will improve their neighborhoods, it's not going to make a difference. Barry has spoken!

I really think DDOT would get a better return on their investment if they build the segments in the communities that are supportive and anxious for them.

by scott on Mar 29, 2011 10:29 am • link • report

@David C

I think the CSX alignment is probably the best because it's cheap, doesn't impact traffic and will have no traffic to deal with - plus the original design included a parallel bike path, but I wonder what makes them think it's possible now - after claiming for years that it is not.

Those restrictions may well still exist. Part of the process for the Environmental work DDOT is doing will be to collect all of those issues and compare the different alignments against each other. The initial push to use CSX was that it would be fast. Well, it is clearly not been that, CSX has not been a willing partner to date, and all of that should be documented by the EA.

That said, I generally agree - the CSX alignment and the MLK alignment are the two most attractive ones because they are the straightest shots and the simplest routings. The CSX alignment in my mind would rely heavily on plans for Poplar Point. Clark Realty's initial plan for the area included decking over a portion of the freeway and railroad tracks there to better connect Poplar Point to Historic Anacostia. I think that's a great idea if feasible, and the CSX alignment (running in a short subway segment) could help bridge that particular divide - but that's waaaay down the line.

by Alex B. on Mar 29, 2011 10:30 am • link • report

@Scott, it's a shame that you don't know what the heck you're talking about. I live in Ward 8, as do many of my friends. We do not believe everything ANYBODY says, whether it's Barry, Fenty, Gray or Obama.

Sounds like the education initiative should start with you and your completely erroneous characterization of Ward 8 residents.

BTW, when did Barry come out against streetcars? Do you have that link?

by HogWash on Mar 29, 2011 10:39 am • link • report

Ahhh...thee old streetcar debacle.

As has been said in perpetuity and as EJ linked above, Streetcars are nothing more than a shiny new transportation toy in a city that can't afford or operate the one that it has.

1. As purely a method of transportation, especially where dedicated ROW's are not mandated, buses solve the exact same transportation goals that street cars do at a minuscule fraction of the cost, in short, medium and long term time frames. The ~50 mil cost includes 3 streetcars that will run back and forth. For half the cost (25 mil) you can buy 50 top of the line articulated hybrid city buses. If there is a ROI, or even a break even point in regards to streetcar vs buses from a transportation point of view, it would be 50 years or greater.

There is a marginal and anecdotal benefit in terms of increased development and the resulting increased property tax and sales tax revenue that results, and while street car proponents are fast to wag this flag, no one has ever been able to numerically quantify the "generic" ROI, (i.e 50 million of street car investment equals X dollars of economic benefit over X number of years. Considering the number of streetcar systems in the US and the world, I find the inability to even take a rough stab at that number pretty telling.

At the end of the day, DC streetcar proponents need to admit that the 3 phase streetcar envisioned by a former DDOT that seemed unable to recognize that "things cost money" won't be happening, at least not in the next 40-50 years. So fans will have to pick and choose where to put it based on where it will do the most good and provide the most value per dollar. There are a few other areas in town that are screaming for it, are willing to be taxed to pay for it. Spending 50 million for this in Anacostia is no more effective than stacking those pallets of money in the middle of the street and setting on fire.

by freely on Mar 29, 2011 10:46 am • link • report

Bus advocates advocate buses for the purpose of preventing the installation of street cars and then advocate starving and eliminating the buses because they don't want to spend money on them. So screw them: the substitute-buses-for-streetcar advocates have no place in this conversation, since they're against public transit on principle.

by JustMe on Mar 29, 2011 10:49 am • link • report

freely, your analysis assumes the road is free. It is not, and buses do quite a number on them (in a way that streetcars do not). Where will you store those buses? Storage is included in the streetcar proposal. So, you're not comparing apples to apples, which is unfair.

Plus what BeyondDC wrote.

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 10:55 am • link • report

I think that sometimes people just use the "we weren't consulted enough!" line to try and simply block something. If you're against something from the start then no amount of community input is going to convince you otherwise. Its like during the Health Care debate when people claimed that a bill that was debated on for over a year was being rammed down our throats. And actually, my personal signal is that anytime someone uses the phrase "rammed down our throats" I know that they're not interested in actually coming up with a solution and just stopping whatever is happening.

by Canaan on Mar 29, 2011 11:01 am • link • report

National Housing Trust, a well-recognized advocate of preserving affordable housing is pro-transit development.

http://www.nhtinc.org/transit-connected_affordable_homes.php

by Rayful Edmond on Mar 29, 2011 11:01 am • link • report

@DavidC,

And your analysis assumes the track is free. You seem to be forgetting that the tracks need to be built and maintained and that since they are not being given their own ROW and will be sharing it with vehicles, that wear and tear by vehicles is already a given.

Storing buses as an argument? Have you really nothing else to offer as a legitimate argument other than the "cost of storing buses"..really?

WMATA currently has ~1500 buses in its fleet and more than half a dozen existing garage facilities with storage capacity of nearly 1650 buses, so no...we don't need to build additional garages for the 3 additional buses added to the fleet for Anacostia.

Any more strawmen arguments?

by freely on Mar 29, 2011 11:12 am • link • report

@freely,

Where does David C assume the track is free? That's what we're talking about here in the first place - the cost of the infrastructure.

by Alex B. on Mar 29, 2011 11:23 am • link • report

Freely, I'm saying the $50M includes 1) the streetcars 2) the tracks 3) the storage facility. Some designs include a new pedestrian bridge over 295. You are comparing all of that to the cost of buses, which is just part (1). Hence it is not apples to apples. The streercars themselves cost $3M.

Storing the streetcar costs $800,000. Why can we magically store a bus for free, but can't store the streetcar in the exact same place for free?

BTW, You did not propose 3 buses, you proposed 50. And 3 buses can't carry as many people as 3 streetcars.

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 11:25 am • link • report

Isn't the only traffic on this going to be from DIA to DHS to the Navy Yard?

by charlie on Mar 29, 2011 11:27 am • link • report

@JustMe:

If you want to help Anacostia and reduce displacement, spend those tens of millions of dollars on giving the residents jobs with the DC government, or use the money to fund some non-profit that provides social services and use the money to hire locals to provide those services.

Great thinking! It's the model for success that DC pursued during the 80s and 90s to such great effect. Bottom line is--if we want DC to become a thriving, diverse, economically balanced entity--eliminating displacement is no priority whatsoever. The days where DC's primary role was providing welfare services for the suburbs are in the past, and it's unlikely we'll see a return to that time.

by oboe on Mar 29, 2011 11:28 am • link • report

If you want to help Anacostia and reduce displacement, spend those tens of millions of dollars on giving the residents jobs with the DC government, or use the money to fund some non-profit that provides social services and use the money to hire locals to provide those services.

The problem with this is a "stock versus flow" issue. A government job is, effectively, a "flow." You spend a certain amount of money year after year, every single year. A construction project is a "stock." You spend the money now, once, and you're done.

Taxes are positive flows. You collect them every year, year after year. Assessments are positive stocks. You charge once and than not again (um, well sort of).

Aside from the corruption and other policy problems with non merit-based jobs, funding them tends to be more expensive because you owe salary every year. Thus, good policy dictates we do not fund "flows" with "stock" money.

by WRD on Mar 29, 2011 11:36 am • link • report

Why not replace one of the bus routes completely with the streetcar or bring back a old streetcar line exactly.

My ideas are to replace a bus route or add a second route to get from A to B for one of the existing bus routes. Anything else will get disapproval and there is no point to mention it.

Anacostia station up MLK then have it travel on 4th or South Capitol Streets to DC Line/Eastover

Anacostia Station up MLK to Alabama Ave then down Alabama Ave to Fairfax Village.

Anacostia Station down MLK to Good Hope Rd then up Good Hope Rd to the shopping center with the Safeway

Anacostia Station- Howard RD then Sheridan RD or Stanton RD then Alabama Ave then Good Hope Rd and back to Anacostia somewhat duplicating the W6/8 lines.

by kk on Mar 29, 2011 11:36 am • link • report

I'm just saying that there is little constituency in Anacostia for the sort of "economic development" that is promised with the installation of a streetcar line. I don't see why pointing this out is in any way controversial, and I don't understand why any of you think that this street car line is going to ever get "buy in" from the community.

EOTR priorities are two-fold: more available jobs for locals and a promise that their neighborhoods will remain stable. Combine this with an ingrained DC suspicion/hostility to the opening of local businesses (related to the "wanting the neighborhood to remain stable" issue), and pretty much the appeal of the streetcar is close to 0.

Saying, "Anacostia should support a streetcar for its own good" might be true, but doesn't really help. It's conceivable that DDOT might enact policies without the approval of local community "leaders," and that might be ok, but let's not fool ourselves into believing that they're ever going to make the "sale" to the locals.

by JustMe on Mar 29, 2011 12:07 pm • link • report

@David C

I can't help you if you aren't going to bother reading the links EJ posted above that refute, almost line by line the so called "benefits" of street cars linked by beyond dc. I suggest you do so before posting again because you are simply recycling the same propaganda refuted above.

DDOT was paying the Czech Republic 800K a year to store them (for 4 years, 3.2 million total or the cost of 6 top of the line hybrid articulated buses) because DDOT ridiculously decided to spend tens of millions of dollars on something it didn't yet have a plan for.

Does WMATA charge DDOT to store their streetcars now that they are here? I dunno, I certainly would if I were WMATA.

And I am not sure why "capacity" matters a damn when DDOT's own numbers show an expected ridership in anacostia of a whopping 150 people per day. You could run a cargo van up and down MLK all day to accomodate those pathetic ridership numbers.

And David, reading comp is key. I said you COULD buy 50 buses with half the money, not that they should right away. They only propose 3 street cars to run this alignment, hence my 3 bus number but what is shows is that you could buy 3 new buses for this anacostia alignment every 3 years for the next 50 years (WMATA average fleet age for their buses is more than twice that at 7 years) and still only spend half the money it costs to put 3 streetcars in anacostia today.

by freely on Mar 29, 2011 12:13 pm • link • report

freely, I think it is you who have not read the links. Allow me to cover this though. Below are each of BeyondDC's points and what Human Transit (HT) says about it.

1. Streetcars have higher passenger capacity - HT agrees
2. Streetcars are sturdier - HT does not address this
3. Streetcars are more comfortable - HT agrees
4. Streetcars are easier to understand - HT agrees but says that can be fixed, but cites only BRT as an example
5. Streetcars attract more riders - HT agrees
6. Streetcars help with economic development - HT does not address this
7. Streetcars use electricity not gas - HT agrees, but argues that it's not fair to compare an electric streetcar to gas powered bus. I disagree with HT, but it is moot as that's NOT what you're proposing.
8. Streetcars are quieter - HT says this is because they're gas powered. See above
9. Streetcars are iconic - HT agrees

So it's not quite the devastating take down you seem to think it is.

DDOT's own numbers show an expected ridership in anacostia of a whopping 150 people per day.

Where does that come from?

I said you COULD buy 50 buses with half the money, not that they should right away.

I guess I got confused when you labelled part of your tirade as "1." but then never got to "2." And then when you inexplicably cut the cost in half to do your comparison. Why mention 50 buses if that number was irrelevant? Reading comprehension involves your writing being comprehensible.

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 12:47 pm • link • report

if ward 8 doesnt want the street car then bring it to GA Ave.

by john on Mar 29, 2011 12:53 pm • link • report

So if local residents don't want the streetcar at all, should their views have any weight in the discussion? Or are they just going to be ignored by central planners who know best what's good for the residents?

Perhaps the residents aren't impressed with DDOT's line that "We're from the government, and we're here to help"?

by Fritz on Mar 29, 2011 1:16 pm • link • report

Um, ok. If these folks, and there elected representative, don't want streetcars, let's focus our energy elsewhere. Personally, I think it'd be a great investment and a sign that the rest of the city has faith in the potential of Ward 8 and its residents, but I don't see the need to force it down their throats. Let's move on a provide streetcars to neighborhoods who have a little more interest.

There's going to be opposition everywhere, but without neighborhood supporters to balance it out, why bother?

by TimK on Mar 29, 2011 1:29 pm • link • report

There is plenty of affordable housing in Ward 8. Too much in fact. The new building at the corner of Sheridan and MLK will be 352 units and half will be affordable housing.

I am sick of people always complaining. Get on board and be part of the solution instead of wanting an all black shit hole that is ward 8. SICK OF IT. I want a street car.

by Ward 8 resident on Mar 29, 2011 1:36 pm • link • report

There's going to be opposition everywhere, but without neighborhood supporters to balance it out, why bother?

The problem is that we've already built a streetcar line SW of Anacostia - and designed the 11th Street bridges to carry streetcars. To get the full value out of the money we've already spent we need to connect these two sections which means this 2 mile connector. That's why we need to bother.

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 1:39 pm • link • report

@HOGWAS READ PARAGRAPH 10 FOR WHAT BARRY SAID, BUT I LIVE IN WARD AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE BECUASE ALL BARRY WANTS TO DO IS KEEP THE WARD FOR THE POOR AND BY THE POOR RAN BY HIM, WARD 8 NEEDS REAL CHANGE AND SOME RESIDENTS ARE JUST LIKE BARRY, THE FEAR CHARGE AND DONT WANT TO HAVE ANY PART IN SAID CHANGES...I THINK BARRY IS AGAINST ANY DEVELPOMENT THAT GOOD FOR WARD 8 BECAUSE IF IT DONT HAPPEN OR ISN'T AS SUCCESSFUL AS PLANNED HE CAN SAY I TOLD MY PEOPLE SO

by Jerome on Mar 29, 2011 1:52 pm • link • report

@EJ, freely

I think you both need to read the Human Transit links again. If you want to compare apples to apples try comparing a streetcar to a bus that runs on overhead wires, has stations with off-board payment, and all the rest that the streetcar brings. Guess what? When you do all those things for a bus, the cost rapidly approaches what it costs to provide the same with a streetcar. And guess what? The streetcar provides STILL provides benefits over that type of bus, mainly capacity (holds more people) and permanence (rails make it harder to justify removing service).

But if you want to say that you can buy 50 buses for the price of the streetcar and then claim that they're exactly the same because they both take you from one place to another, please allow me to replace your car with a 50cc moped.

by MLD on Mar 29, 2011 2:04 pm • link • report

Only in a world where someone thinks a city spending 50 million dollars on something 150 people a day will ride (in the year 2030) does "it's iconic" pass for a supposed legitimate reason. Are you serious? And more comfortable? Says who? doesn't that depend on a seat material comparison between streetcars and buses?

As to the proposed ridership numbers, page 33 and the 150 a day...thats for the year 2030!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/39746647/Streetcar-System-Plan-Oct2010

So now we've shot down your reasons 1 and 2 (what difference does how sturdy it is matter when you can a steady supply of new buses every 3 years for the next 50 for half the price of the proposed system) and 3. 4 is beyond ridiculous as a reason to spend 50 million dollars on anything. 5 is moot because DDOT has already quantified the 150 people a year who will use it 19 years from now and it is laughable.

6 I agree on as I said above but the delta in increased economic development has never been quanitifed and certainly doesn't come any where near benefical at a cost of 50 million bucks. You could take 10 million of that, pass a blanket property and business tax exemption for all commercial properties along MKL Ave for 5 years and it would look like Clarendon in 3 years.

What difference does it make whether the buses are hybrid electrics (as I priced out above) or not? You realize that unless DDOT buys all its power from some solar array or windfarm, the power moving that street car is likely coal or
gas. Again, what does it matter when the price differential over 50 years is many tens of millions of dollars? Number 7 bites the dust.

They are quieter? Odd, I don't remember anyone complaining about the massive racket WMATA's buses make. Considering they have a fleet of 1500 of them responsible for hundreds of thousands of trips per day, I figure we would have heard something. There goes number 8.

We already dealt with 9. I am still laughing.

Ok, thats it. I am done doing your homework for you and laughing at the sheer lunacy of reasons used to support a City who has had more than 1.5 billion in budget deficits the past 4 budget years spending 50 million dollars on something 150 people a day will use in 19 years.

I'll end with this. As you are a supporter of the program you should be the one most critical of the Anacostia line.

Why? Because, as nearly impossible as it will be to build out the rest of the network, it will become 100% impossible for any future administration to spend money on the proposed streetcar plan once Anacostia is in, and it becomes the poster child for boondoggle transit spending. No future DC administration will touch it with a 10 foot pole when you have to spend 50 million dollars (already millions over budget) on something that no one uses (my bad...150 people a year in 2030) So the quickest way for a certain death is to screw up the initial segments which DDOT seems intent on doing.

by freely on Mar 29, 2011 2:06 pm • link • report

freely,

Reading comprehension: the 150 refers to the Anacostia Initial Line Segment. That is the segment SW of the Anacostia Metro station (the yellow line on the above pictures). We're discussing the Anacostia extension which is projected to have a ridership of 3200 people by 2030. Care to reassess?

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 2:11 pm • link • report

@MLD,

Where has anyone ever recommended to substitute buses with electrified ones running on overhead wires? Where?

And why in the world would anyone ever do such a ridiculous thing in the District? You would have to build all the infrastructure for it when a regular diesel or gas hybrid bus that patrols DC streets today by the thousands works just fine.

I am all for legitimate debate, but no one is recommending "street car buses" so lets keep the debate to the alternatives at hand.

by freely on Mar 29, 2011 2:12 pm • link • report

@DavidC: That logic is reminiscent of when I've gone to Atlantic City: If I only spend another $100 at the poker table, I'll recoup the previous $200 in losses. At some point, you have to just acknowledge it was a mistake and stop wasting additional money. Particularly when that money can be put to better use elsewhere.

At some point, we will look back on this fetishist obsession with streetcars and wonder what the heck were our urban planning elitists thinking? Streetcars will one day be viewed as the polyester bellbottom pants of urban planning.

by Fritz on Mar 29, 2011 2:16 pm • link • report

So if local residents don't want the streetcar at all, should their views have any weight in the discussion?

My initial instinct is, "no, they shouldn't have any weight," if only because what we hear from "local residents" are basically just annoying busybodies from the ANCs. And, second, because the interests of potential residents are important when building infrastructure, not just current residents. However, in the case of streetcars, part of the promise of them is that their presence will promote more economic development along that corridor, something the locals are also opposed to, and I have no faith that the laws are going to change to make it easier to open and run businesses in the area alongside ANC opposition to such development, so the money for streetcars will end up going to waste.

by JustMe on Mar 29, 2011 2:20 pm • link • report

"So if local residents don't want the streetcar at all, should their views have any weight in the discussion? Or are they just going to be ignored by central planners who know best what's good for the residents?
Perhaps the residents aren't impressed with DDOT's line that "We're from the government, and we're here to help"?"

It's not like there's a stellar history of good local governance decisions going on here. (See Elected Representative, Ward 8.)

But whatever. If residents are resolute that they don't want the streetcars, fine, they shouldn't be forced to have them. But then let's not hear any more complaints that the Ward has been left behind. As others have mentioned, more affordable housing and additional bus routes are unlikely to have much positive effect.

"We want things to change, but we want things to remain exactly the same" is not a tenable position. Pick one.

by dcd on Mar 29, 2011 2:22 pm • link • report

Freely,

You make the mistake (being generous) of thinking that because no single benefit of streetcars is worth $50M, the whole thing can not be worth $50M. But you have to add these benefits to see if the cumulative benefit is worth the money spent (i.e. do a cost-benefit analysis)

First of all, the average cost of the above 10 proposed systems is $46M not $50M. Let's use the right number.

The streetcars last 4 times as long as buses. Being generous and saying you only need 1 more buses than streetcars that means you'll need 16 busus over 40 years for $8M. So, the streetcar system is $38M more than the bus system at this point.

But it will cost more to opearte the buses. They'll use diesel or CNG which is more expensive than electricity (that's one reason why you care how it is powered) and over the years that will add up. You'll also need one more driver. That is several million dollars over the 40 year lifetime.

The streetcars are more comfortable because they're smoother. Is that worth $38M? Probably not. But it's not worht $0 either.

That it is electricity also means that it is cleaner. First of all, it is totally possible for WMATA to buy all of it;s electricity from a wind farm. I do, via Clean Currents. There's no reason why WMATA couldn't too (it's actually cheaper, and you lock in a price so there is better stability). Also, the amount of coal of gas you need to burn to move a streetcar via electricity is less than you need to move a bus via an ICE. And thirdly, even though much of our electricity is fossil based, not all of it is. So electricity is cleaner than gasoline. And electricity can be generated at a big power plant with scrubbers and cleaning technology, far from the crowds - while a bus spews its exhause at street level in places where there are lots of people. So electricity and its environmental and health benefits is a real benefit. Is that worth $38M? Possibly not. But it's not worht $0 either. Its probably millions over the 40 years.

Buses are louder. That no one complains is not a measure of whether they are loud or not. It is a measure of how acclimated people are to them. But it is very simple to show that they are loud. And very simple to show that there are negative impacts of noise pollution. Is that worth $38M? Probably not. But it's not worht $0 either.

You've already conceeded that the streetcars will lead to development and so that has a value.

And since the streetcar will induce ridership, it will reduce driving and congestion (especially if it runs on the CSX ROW).

So you need to add the value of the lower energy costs + lower personnel costs + personal comfort + reduced air pollution + reduced CO2 production + health benefits + reduced noise pollution + economic development + reduced congestion and then compare that to the $38M price tag. Once you have all of those numbers, let's talk.

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 2:43 pm • link • report

MLD, it is true that those are sunk costs. But the existence of the AILS increases the benefit of the Anacostia Extension. And the design of the 11th street bridge reduces the cost. So the real answer is that the cost-benefit ratio is so low that it is in the cities best interest to build this. That is why we should build it (unless of course it isn't. I'm waiting on freely to quantify the benefits for me).

freely,

I forgot. You have to add in the storage costs of the buses and the cost of the damage the buses will do to the road over the next 40 years.

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 2:47 pm • link • report

Frankly, I believe we should do what it takes to strengthen our city's infrastructure. Currently, there appears to be a (growing) majority that favors a streetcar network. Local detractors should be ignored in the same way that we would ignore local opponents of modernizing the sewage system, or erecting a network of community health clinics.

There's no reason to make our city objectively crappier in 2030 to placate a shrinking minority who are on the wrong side of history. If we've got the votes, install the streetcars.

by oboe on Mar 29, 2011 2:51 pm • link • report

@freely:
Where has anyone ever recommended to substitute buses with electrified ones running on overhead wires? Where?

Nobody has. That's why you're making a completely false comparison when you propose replacing a streetcar plan with just a regular bus. You could try actually reading the second paragraph of my comment instead of just making a knee-jerk reaction; you might have understood what I was saying.

There are many reasons to build a streetcar other than moving people from one place to another as cheaply as possible - your bus plan fails in every other comparison, as pointed out by David C.

by MLD on Mar 29, 2011 3:05 pm • link • report

@Jerome, if you're referring to this, "Those skeptics include Councilmember Marion Barry, who announced that he doesn't want the streetcar extended into the neighborhood from its starter segment to Barry Farm and South Capitol Street." I'm not sure I understand your point. Barry still didn't say he was opposed to streetcars.

To your other points, if you had anything to demonstrate how this particular project will "raise the income levels" or "economic disposition" of Ward 8 and it's residents, your points against Barry as a poverty pimp would have more merit. Ward 8 has had a few major developments since Barry as been councilman. I don't recall him being against any of those and the Ward has flourished.

@JustMe, local Ward 8 residents are against economic development along MLK? Really? Sounds like a lot of hyperbole there.

@Oboe, really dude. I'm not certain that opposition to streetcars is akin opposition to modernized water sewage systems. I fully understand the desire to dismiss any concern of ETOR residents (when they don't mesh well w/your own) but that's a stretch. Consistent with your previous positions but a stretch nonetheless.

by HogWash on Mar 29, 2011 3:24 pm • link • report

HogWash,

Two points: if every Ward 8 resident suddenly got $100k / year jobs this term would be Barry's last. If he's not a "poverty pimp" the phrase has no meaning. He gets paid to the exact degree that his constituents remain unemployed and without prospects.

Secondly, you're naive if you think there wouldn't be sizeable opposition to any public works project--especially one that has even a whiff of the dreaded SWPL.

by oboe on Mar 29, 2011 3:43 pm • link • report

@Oboe, I think your exhibiting an unfortunate ignorance on how politicians and their constituency works.

I have no absolute knowledge, but I'm assuming that the average US voter is an employed voter. That same assumption applies to Ward 8 residents. I don't see how these "employed" or "senior" residents will change their voting patterns and oust Barry just because they were given 100k jobs. Hell, that would likely put them more in Barry's corner because as councilmember he can credit himself with increasing the income levels of Ward 8 residents.

Secondly, I am not naive about the community I've lived in all these years. But as you posit, things like modernized sewage systems are stuff white people like and obviously, we black folk would be against it, just off of GP. Yeah ok. I guess.

by HogWash on Mar 29, 2011 4:12 pm • link • report

What a surprise...white urban planners are shocked that the negroes don't know what's good for them. If only they wised up and got on board. Really, all of these plans would be awesome if those damn people just got their act together.

Seriously...don't you realize this happens every time one of these dumb pet projects gets started?

When you ignore the wishes of your constituency, Vince Gray happens.

Have fun missing the forest for the trees.

by MPC on Mar 29, 2011 4:17 pm • link • report

Don't forget that this route will likely eventually supercede the 90-92-93 bus routes, which will have a fairly substantial impact west of the river, by reducing congestion and noise along the Florida Ave-U St corridor, which serves a lot more than 150 or 2300 passengers a day.

Whether this line gets built or not is an issue that reaches far beyond Anacostia.

by andrew on Mar 29, 2011 4:25 pm • link • report

Jobs? In my neighborhood? Hell no!

by JJJJJ on Mar 29, 2011 4:27 pm • link • report

Don't forget that this route will likely eventually supercede the 90-92-93 bus routes, which will have a fairly substantial impact west of the river, by reducing congestion and noise along the Florida Ave-U St corridor

In other words, it may do nothing to help Anacostia, but at least it will help out the white, affluent part of DC.

You should really consider going into public relations.

by MPC on Mar 29, 2011 4:28 pm • link • report

In other words, it may do nothing to help Anacostia, but at least it will help out the white, affluent part of DC.

Even if that were true (and it's not), wouldn't that be reason enough? Aren't we all in this together? If it were the other way around - a streetcar through Capitol Hill that didn't help Capitol Hill residents but did help out the black, poor part of DC, wouldn't that be something to support?

If it helps out some people, and harms none, isn't that something to support?

by David C on Mar 29, 2011 4:32 pm • link • report

@David C

Bike lanes and dog parks. When you have a pool of poor, underemployed voters, you will probably will want to tend not to use the reason of "it will shorten commute times for richer, whiter people" as one of your selling points for infrastructure investment.

And to answer your question:

If it helps out some people, and harms none, isn't that something to support?

Bike lanes and dog parks.

by MPC on Mar 29, 2011 4:43 pm • link • report

idk mpc. it sounds like you're arguing that everyone should have the quality of life of the person with the least means, otherwise "it's not fair".

The street car project is a 40 year city-wide (and hopefully region-wide) project. its for the whole city not just current EOTR residents. It had to start somehwere. As others have pointed out it started EOTR b/c there was a perception and/or reality of EOTR getting left out of this type of civic development (such as the spending on dog parks in Ward 1.)

by Tina on Mar 29, 2011 5:25 pm • link • report

I'm starting to wonder if #7 isn't such a bad idea. There's nothing there now, but this is prime land for development. If the streetcar can travel down what will become a new "main street" in Poplar Point, with high density buildings and retail on both sides and other residential in the blocks behind, the streetcar could make it very appealing.

It'd certainly make the neighborhood feel a lot more separate than historic Anacostia, and firm up the impression of the streetcar as the white people trolley, depending who lives in the new Poplar Point buildings, though.

by David Alpert on Mar 29, 2011 6:01 pm • link • report

@JustMe, local Ward 8 residents are against economic development along MLK? Really? Sounds like a lot of hyperbole there.

Are you kidding? Opening retail and restaurants is considered a major assault on the neighborhood in most places in DC, or at least something only allowed when sufficient deference and tribute is offered to the local community, if at all. For most DC residents, including Anacostia, saying, "this new amenity will cause a growth of commercial and retail development" sounds like a horror story.

by JustMe on Mar 29, 2011 6:10 pm • link • report

@David

I think the biggest problem with that approach is that the streetcar will likely be developed far sooner than Poplar Point will be. It's not even clear yet what Poplar Point's grid of streets will be - nor would this preclude future lines through Poplar Point (perhaps connecting to the Buzzard Point line across a new South Capitol Street bridge).

by Alex B. on Mar 29, 2011 6:13 pm • link • report

Alex: Why is that a problem? Streetcar lines were often built in advance of development in the past.

Leave the Anacostia starter line relatively dormant for now. Once a line reaches the 11th Street Bridge on the other side, go over the bridge, through Poplar Point, to Anacostia Metro and maybe to St. E's.

If there's still nothing at Poplar Point, it can be a very speedy trip for now, making it a quick connection from NoMa, H Street, Capitol Hill to Anacostia Metro and St. E's. As things get built at Poplar Point, add stops. By being a quick trolley ride from Barracks Row, the ballpark, H Street, etc. it'll be an appealing place to live.

by David Alpert on Mar 29, 2011 6:22 pm • link • report

Options 7, 8, 9, and 10 are painfully, screamingly horrible. If you are going to put it where nobody is, nobody is going to ride it. If that is what they want to do, they might as well build in in the middle of the Anacostia River. That way it won't affect car traffic at all. And after all that is the most important consideration. Isn't it? Not serving the community, serve the cars.
What they should do is run it down MLK Blvd. through Congress Heights, down South Capitol Street, and all the way down to Oxon Hill.

by Steve on Mar 29, 2011 11:26 pm • link • report

@David

Alex: Why is that a problem? Streetcar lines were often built in advance of development in the past.

Building a streetcar there isn't a problem. Building this particular segment there - a segment that's meant to connect several key links in the overall network - might be better suited on the most direct route possible, MLK Avenue.

This segment will connect at the north to lines going across the 11th St Bridge and up Minnesota Ave, and to the South going further along MLK towards St E's and Congress Heights, as well as the starter line along Firth Sterling. Making it a circuitous route won't serve that connection well.

That's not to say streetcars in Poplar Point is bad - quite the opposite, actually. But let's be clear on what this line segment is supposed to do. Also, let's be clear on the implications of option 7 - it won't serve historic Anacostia at all, unless you mitigate the massive freeway somehow.

by Alex B. on Mar 30, 2011 12:05 am • link • report

Will this line continue on past the big employers on 295? Bolling AFB, Anacostia Naval Station, Naval Research Laboratory, and DC Water?

by goldfish on Mar 30, 2011 9:24 am • link • report

idk mpc. it sounds like you're arguing that everyone should have the quality of life of the person with the least means, otherwise "it's not fair".

That's exactly the argument. Real talk: Life is always going to suck for poor folks more than for rich folks. The trick is to try to get those poor folks out of poverty, not to make sure that no one gets "left behind" by lowering the overall quality of life for everyone, as has been city policy for many, many decades.

No starker example of this than that MPC thinks "Bike lanes and dog parks" is a standalone argument. It's not; it's a cri de coeur of resentment. It's crabs in a pot, pulling each other down.

by oboe on Mar 30, 2011 9:31 am • link • report

@DAlp, #7's not too bad. It solves the issue that Barry et. al (including myself) would have with running the tracks through neighborhoods as well as down the busy, yet narrow MLK.

It seems as if many of those making H Street/Benning comparisons don't realize that MLK is not nearly as wide.

by HogWash on Mar 30, 2011 12:16 pm • link • report

Oboe, I don't think the city, by attempting to make sure no one gets left behind, lowered the quality of life for everyone else.

by HogWash on Mar 30, 2011 12:17 pm • link • report

HogWash: Let's say DC did #7, and then Poplar Point got developed into a lot of mid-rise condos.

Those mostly end up drawing more affluent, more likely white people who work on the Hill or at DHS and who don't go into Anacostia all that much or interact with Ward 8 all that much.

The revenue from this helps the DC budget, so the District can spend more on education, which is what Barry is saying he would like to see.

Do you think the overall view in the neighborhood would be hostile or happy about the streetcar? It's not going through residential areas, but it's also basically going around Anacostia and going through this new Poplar Point neighborhood instead.

Would people just end up seeing the streetcar as "the white people's trolley" and dislike it, or say, this thing is fine, it goes where we wanted it to go and we get more money for education"?

by David Alpert on Mar 30, 2011 12:24 pm • link • report

D, short answer: Yes.

But let me put that into context. There will be people who, instead of thinking for themselves, will allow others to think/frame discussions for them. These are the people most susceptible to antics of those against "Stuff White People Like" and "How Black People Act." These are the people most influenced by Fenty, Barry, Moten, Rhee or any other person seeking to mischaracterize motivations to suit their own purposes. They exist on both side of the "river."

But, I've found that those who scream the loudest aren't really representative of the majority - they just have the loudest voices. Barry's idea about diverting the money towards education is moot. At least I think I read somewhere that it's not possible.

I can't say that communication is the big challenge. Using the same "pimp tactic," Marion Barry could let it be known that "if we don't get these tracks laid on MLK, the white folk go come in and put it in Poplar Point." That's the scare tactic! But I don't think even that would increase support for it if for no other reason than the fact we're talking about "streetcars," turning what used to be four lanes, down to 2 and possibly run the lines through an area that takes all of 10-15 minutes to walk. It's a "need" argument.

That said, there are people WOTR whom, despite how many Veronica Davis' or Nikki Peetes(sp) or HogWash's or Vincent Grays they meet, will still lump them in with whatever's negative about EOTR. Perception doesn't always reflect reality.

So, if our community decides against it, then SOMEONE w/in our community should be willing to stand and say, "we voted against this and now we see the result." Personally, I don't think there will be much ire surrounding the streetcars going through Poplar Point. Heck, I would probably like them more because the cars would have "riverfront views" and would be a good addition to the development initially planned under the Anacostia Waterfront Initiative.

I also don't think that there will be a significant number of white affluents moving EOTR anytime soon. They're already building Sheridan Station (MUD), a stone's throw from the proposed streetcar line and a 5-minute walk to Anacostia metro. Chances are it, like the 450k homes on Miss. Ave, will be largely occupied by black middle class professionals.

Sorry for the length, but time will tell.

by HogWash on Mar 30, 2011 2:42 pm • link • report

DC should have had this discussion and come to some workable consensus and budget years before buying trolleys and puting steel in the ground. The DC government often acts first and plans later. Whatever you the think about trollies, the planning process led by DDOT has been too little too late citywide.

by AICP on Mar 30, 2011 11:21 pm • link • report

" If residents are resolute that they don't want the streetcars they shouldn't be forced to have them. But then let's not hear any more complaints that the Ward has been left behind."

I agree with this. If people don't want it, build it where people do, and... if it goes to Poplar, and not thru Anacostia - It's waht "the people" wanted. Then, it is not a race or class issue. People voted. End of story. Responsibility be done.

by greent on Mar 31, 2011 2:56 pm • link • report

I say do it right and go with alt one or go with nine so we waste the least money.

by Doug on Jun 27, 2011 10:17 pm • link • report