Greater Greater Washington

Posts about Bad Streets

Bicycling


Montgomery's fake cul-de-sacs don't solve traffic woes

Concerned about through traffic, many neighborhoods in Montgomery County have closed off their once-connected streets. But the costs of a quiet street might outweigh the benefits.


Sign on Ellsworth Drive outside downtown Silver Spring. Photo by the author.

Montgomery County neighborhoods, like many in North America, generally fall into two categories: those with cul-de-sacs, and those without. Before World War II, and for a little while afterwards, neighborhoods in Montgomery were built with streets in a grid, or at least in a connected network. As cars became more popular, these streets often became noisy and congested, so planners came up with an alternative.

With support from the Federal Housing Administration and prevailing design trends that turned their back on traditional urban street patterns, builders nationwide switched to cul-de-sacs. As a result, most Montgomery neighborhoods built since then have them. Just look at a map of the county and you can pick out older, gridded communities like Bethesda from newer ones with loopy, disconnected streets, like Germantown.


Disconnected cul-de-sacs in Germantown force everyone to use collector roads. Photo by Evan Glass.


Gridded streets in King Farm disperse traffic throughout the neighborhood. Photo by Evan Glass.

Of course, cul-de-sacs weren't the traffic panacea 20th-century planners thought they were, and there's since been a growing backlash against them. In some newer neighborhoods like Poplar Run in Glenmont, they're few and far between; in others, like Kentlands in Gaithersburg or King Farm in Rockville, they've been all but banished.

We've returned to appreciating a connected street network, which can diffuse congestion and make walking, biking and even driving safer and easier. They're also cheaper to maintain and easier for emergency vehicles to navigate, which are two of the reasons why Virginia banned cul-de-sacs in 2009.

Yet in many of Montgomery's oldest neighborhoods, which were built with grids to begin with, the cul-de-sac mindset remains. Prodded by residents sick of speeding drivers on their neighborhood streets, the county's Department of Transportation has found ways to keep through traffic at bay using a kind of "fake" cul-de-sac.

Sometimes, they'll restrict turns from arterial streets or ban cars from entering certain streets at rush hour. Occasionally, they'll take more drastic measures and cut off a through-street entirely, like Ellsworth Drive near downtown Silver Spring.

If you live on a street like Ellsworth, you're probably not complaining. You get all of the benefits of living next to one of the region's biggest jobs, shopping and entertainment districts, while enjoying quiet, peaceful streets undisturbed by people from outside the neighborhood.

Less amused, however, are your neighbors on adjacent streets, like Colesville Road, Wayne Avenue or Georgia Avenue, that have to pick up the slack. Breaking up the street grid means more local trips end up on what through streets remain, making them more congested.

Studies show that residents living on busy streets are not only exposed to higher pollution levels, but they have fewer friends and a weakened sense of community.


Cutting off through-streets in Silver Spring forces all traffic onto streets like Georgia Avenue, making them a barrier between neighborhoods. Photo by the author.

Sometimes access restrictions displace car traffic to another neighborhood entirely. In 2010, the Sligo Park Hills community in Silver Spring asked the county to restrict rush-hour commuters from using several streets there.

Neighbors in adjacent Takoma Park worried it would just send cars their way. "We will be impacted by moving your traffic over to us, and your neighborhood is no more important, your kids are no important and your convenience is no more important [than our own]," said Takoma Park resident Ellen Zavian.

However, one Sligo Park Hills resident was so tired of drivers using his street that he threatened violence against them. "If you guys drive through my neighborhood in the early morning hours and I perceive you to be a threat, I'm going to start walking around with a rock in my hand," Sean Gibbons told the Gazette.

As a result, the City of Takoma Park implemented their own traffic restrictions later that year. Mayor Bruce Williams said that if they didn't, they would "be essentially saying 'okay take all that traffic and send it through Mississippi Avenue and Ritchie Avenue."

We can't fault people for wanting to live on a safe, quiet street, but the streets in neighborhoods like Sligo Park Hills are owned by Montgomery County, meaning that all Montgomery County residents pay taxes to maintain them, and have a right to use them. Besides, telling drivers they can't use your street does nothing to solve the larger traffic problem.

If we're trying to discourage folks from driving through certain neighborhoods, we might as well finish the job and make it easier for them and the people living in these neighborhoods to get around without a car.

While Montgomery's older communities were built with interconnected streets, they didn't have sidewalks. Many residents want to keep it that way. However, the best way to reduce car traffic, at least for shorter trips, is to make it easier and safer to bike or walk. Many of the neighborhoods that currently have traffic restrictions are already within a short walk or bike ride of major shopping areas, job centers and public transit. If more people are out biking and walking on local streets, it'll be a cue that drivers should slow down.

Sidewalks are a start, though Montgomery County planners have also explored striping a "pedestrian lane" on streets where sidewalks are either impractical or too costly. While we're at it, we could stripe some more bike lanes as well.


Bike Boulevard in Berkeley, California. Photo by Artbandito on Flickr.

Or we could turn streets like Ellsworth Drive into "neighborhood greenways," also known as "bike boulevards," designed to give people on foot or bike priority over drivers. That's sort of what currently exists on Second Avenue between 16th and Spring streets in Silver Spring, which allows bikes and buses during rush hour, but not cars. And if we're going to turn a street into a dead-end, we should at least make it passable for pedestrians and bicyclists, like on Middleton Lane near downtown Bethesda.

A well-connected street network has many potential benefits: better access to local amenities, diffused traffic congestion, and even stronger social ties. The best way to reduce congestion on little streets and big streets alike is to give people choices, whether it's multiple routes for driving, the option of taking transit, or the ability to safely get around by foot or bike.

While residents shouldn't have to worry about speeding drivers or heavy traffic on small neighborhood streets, closing off public streets isn't a real solution.

Parking


Can a parking deck be "green"? New Glenmont garage isn't

County Executive Ike Leggett calls the new garage at the Glenmont Metro a "boon to transit and a boon to the environment." A truly "green" garage at a transit station would make room for people, not just cars.


The new Glenmont parking garage. Photo by Ben Schumin.

Last week, Montgomery County officials cut the ribbon on the new parking facility, located on the west side of Georgia Avenue at Glenallan Avenue. A press release notes that the garage, which earned LEED certification, was built from recycled materials and has energy-efficient light fixtures.

Meanwhile, WMATA cut down an acre of trees to build the 1,200 space, 80-foot high garage while violating the county's own plans for transit-oriented development.

Is there such a thing as a "green" parking garage?

Maybe if it's covered in plants, like this one in Miami Beach, Florida. While there's nothing wrong with accommodating drivers who'd otherwise drive all the way to work, just building more parking spaces won't help the environment - or Glenmont, for that matter.

How did this happen?

"Green" Glenmont Parking Garage
Site plan of new garage overlaid on the 1998 Glenmont Sector Plan, which proposed townhouses and retail along Georgia Avenue.

In 2006, WMATA proposed building a new parking garage on 10 acres of land they own along the west side of Georgia Avenue. The existing 1,700-space garage fills up often, they claimed. Neighbors didn't want a garage in their backyards, and county planners agreed, suggesting that it be built on the east side next to the old one.

However, WMATA staff estimated that it would cost nearly $23,000 a space to build a garage on the east side, compared to about $16,000 on the west. Seeing the potential for savings, the County Council voted to fund the construction of a garage on the west side of Georgia in 2007.

WMATA's design required tearing down an acre of forest the county wanted to preserve, but the Planning Board reluctantly approved it, arguing that sending them back to the drawing board would be a waste of time and public funds. Nonetheless, then-Chairman Royce Hanson called the garage "both an injury and an insult to the neighborhood."

The county and state of Maryland spent $24.7 million building this garage, or $20,312 a space. Not only did they spend more than originally planned, but they've wasted an opportunity to do the "green" thing: create revenue-generating, neighborhood-compatible development along Georgia Avenue.

What should they have done instead?

Hidden Parking Garage, Elm Street, Bethesda
This parking garage in Bethesda Row is partially hidden by other buildings.

In a presentation at Rail~Volution last fall, Jason Schrieber, principal at planning firm Nelson\Nygaard, noted that transit stations in town centers often have more riders than those served only by park-and-rides. In addition, placing other uses around transit creates both economic and public safety benefits for the surrounding community.

With about 5,800 riders each weekday in 2010, the Glenmont Metro station actually has more customers than neighboring Wheaton, which is in a town center. But it still pales in comparison to other Red Line stations in downtowns, like Bethesda (10,600) or Silver Spring (13,400). Meanwhile, just 17% of people living within a half-mile of Glenmont take the Metro to work, compared to 35% in Silver Spring. These are people who probably wouldn't drive to the station, so a new parking garage won't encourage them to use transit.

To truly increase transit ridership and help the environment, the new parking garage at Glenmont should have been designed to fit into a larger neighborhood scheme, like the one envisioned in the Glenmont Sector Plan nearly 15 years ago.

Parking Garage Over Shops, Clarendon At Fillmore
This parking garage in Clarendon is part of a neighborhood, not just a place to put cars.

For instance, the new garage could have included ground-floor retail, like this one in Clarendon, providing activity along Georgia Avenue and encouraging commuters to spend time and money in Glenmont. Or the garage could have been designed to allow other buildings around it, like at Bethesda Row, where a county parking garage is located in the center of a city block with housing, shops, and offices.

Though Glenmont struggles with disinvestment, it's one of the few Metro station areas in Montgomery County where private development is happening without public subsidiesAfter years of delays, local developer JBG is finally moving forward with Glenmont Metrocenter, which will turn a 1960's-era apartment complex into a mixed-use community with 1500 homes and 90,000 square feet of retail without a single dollar of county funds.

WMATA could have made money by selling the land around their new garage for future development from which the county could receive tax revenue. Meanwhile, the neighborhood would have more amenities, more residents or workers who could walk or bike to the Metro, and more "eyes on the street," making the area safer.

County planners are beginning to revise the 1997 plan for Glenmont, but a large chunk of the neighborhood's potential for revitalization is now be gone. There's only so much land next to Metro stations in Montgomery County and Greater Washington as a whole, and we have to use it wisely.

Hopefully, the mistakes made in Glenmont will serve as an example of what not to do elsewhere.

Arts


Music venues can and should engage the public realm

Music clubs can help revitalize neighborhoods, but too often, they do little to nothing to activate or engage street life, and instead wall themselves off from the activity around them.


Photo by Alan Bowser on Flickr.

The Fillmore Silver Spring opened last month, and local music venues are voicing concern that the Live Nation-owned music hall could threaten promoters in the District and even Baltimore. Already, the venue has beaten most local rock clubs on one aspect: it actually embraces the street, with big windows, bright lights, and even a couple of sidewalk benches.

Music halls don't necessarily need windows. They have shows at night and audiences come to watch the band, not the street. But these venues still are still part of their community fabric during the day, when the neighborhoods they reside in play host to other activities.

The 930 Club!
The 9:30 Club in Shaw. Photo by the author.

Having blank, featureless façades discourage street life and can send the wrong message. Last year, the Black Cat, which anchors the shopping and entertainment district along 14th Street NW, painted a mural of a cat on their boarded-up second-floor windows.

2010 07 01 - 1319 - Washington DC - Black Cat
The Black Cat in 2010. Photo by thisisbossi on Flickr.

Nonetheless, it doesn't look much different from the outside than it did as an abandoned shell in 1988. Clubs like the Black Cat and the 9:30 Club a few blocks away have helped revitalize their neighborhoods, but by looking like abandoned bunkers, their aesthetics can perpetuate a run-down image.

Venues outside of the District are no better. While in Baltimore last weekend, I took my friends to The Ottobar, a tiny club in the emerging Station North neighborhood. Judging from its completely blacked-out storefront, they thought it was abandoned. I can imagine someone walking up North Howard Street, assuming there's nothing there, and turning around, missing out on a wonderful coffee shop just a block away.


Left: Baltimore's Ottobar. Right: The Birchmere in Alexandria.

In Alexandria, the venerable Birchmere Music Hall is largely invisible from the street, despite being in a fairly dense, urban neighborhood. If it weren't for the murals on the side, this club would just look like a warehouse behind a parking lot.

One exception would be the Recher Theatre, located in the center of downtown Towson. I drove through Towson last weekend and was impressed at how busy the downtown is, despite being home to one of Maryland's largest shopping malls. With a big marquee left over from the theatre's days as a movie palace and an adjacent bar that's open every day, the Recher keeps the streets active in a way that other area clubs don't.


The Recher Theatre. Image from Google Streetview.

Of course, rock clubs thrive on an aura of obscurity, while windows suggest openness and transparency. But perhaps venues can create window displays that affirm their image while creating a more interesting streetscape. For example, the Trocadero, a rock club in Philadelphia, has engaging, albeit suggestive, Barbie Doll dioramas in their windows.

Great streets require the participation of all the buildings that front them, even rock clubs. By creating storefronts that are visually interesting, or by providing uses like cafes or bars that are visibly open when shows aren't going on, clubs can create safer, more vibrant neighborhoods.

Pedestrians


Renovated Safeway at Seven Corners dismisses pedestrians

The Safeway in the Willston Center near Seven Corners in Fairfax County recently underwent a major renovation. This renovation provides no access for pedestrians along the sidewalk in front of the store, forcing pedestrians to walk in the parking lot.


Photo by the author.

The new renovation is a vast improvement over the old Safeway store that was here. It's bigger, newer, cleaner and includes a Starbucks. Unfortunately, no one paid any attention to how the front of the store interacts with the parking lot and the sidewalk.

This Safeway is not a stand-alone store. It is in a strip that contains a dozen other establishments. It is also adjacent to and very near a large number of apartment buildings, and a significant number of users (myself included) can and do walk to this strip. So it is not a suburban, car-only type of place, even though it has a large parking lot in front.

Although many users come to the Safeway, many also come to the other establishments, and if they wish to visit any that require them to pass by the Safeway (which is in the middle), they must walk into the parking lot to pass in front of the store.

This is, in fact, a dangerous situation. Pedestrians are forced out not into a parking area, but into the moving traffic along the front of the store. The large columns are visual obstacles for both the pedestrians and the drivers. It is likely that at some point in timeprobably at night or in other lower visibility conditionssomeone will be struck.

Here are some photos:

The BB&T Bank is to the west (left) of the Safeway. To walk past the Safeway to stores on the right, one must walk out into the parking lot.

This narrow section of sidewalk is navigable without going into the parking lot, but there's not a lot of room.

The point where the trash can is located is the place where there is no sidewalk option available. All pedestrians must walk out into the parking lot in order to pass this section. Depending on where the cart storage is, pedestrians may also be forced out at the left of the photo where the leaning sign is located.

This is just past the trash can. The sidewalk is about 12 inches wide, but there is also a sign in the way.

Here's a look from the opposite angle. The sign and trash can are visible on the left side of the photo.

This photo is also taken from the east. The trash can is visible. The BB&T Bank is beyond the Safeway.

Fairfax County's zoning ordinance is hundreds and hundreds of pages. A search through the sections that deal with commercial retail properties like this shopping center resulted in virtually no mentions whatsoever of sidewalks or other pedestrian amenities.

The designers of this Safeway were therefore not required to give any consideration to pedestrians, which is obvious from the outcome. Only those who drive cars were considered in their design choices. Even those who drive here and may also want to go to the bank or to the dollar store nearby are forced to step out into the parking lot traffic in order to do so.

To his credit, when this problem was pointed out to the manager, he was surprised and concerned and expressed his opinion that this design would provide a disservice to his customers. Too bad they didn't ask him before they started.

Pedestrians


Jury finds Maryland liable for failing to include a sidewalk

A Prince George's County jury found the state of Maryland liable for the death of a pedestrian because they didn't install a sidewalk.


Missing sidewalk section on Pennsylvania Avenue. Photo from Google Street View.

A driver hit and killed Kelay Smith on Pennsylvania Avenue in District Heights in August 2008. There is a 200-foot gap in the sidewalk, forcing people to walk along the road with fast-moving traffic.

According to the Post, one of the officers investigating the crash said, "There shouldn't be any pedestrians walking alongside the road," but residents say they have no choice since nearby apartment complex have fences that prohibit walking anywhere else.

This is an all-too-common scene. In a suburban area with low rates of walking, state and local governments design roads for the maximum throughput and speed of motor vehicles with virtually no consideration to pedestrians (or bicyclists). Prince George's County even has an "adequate public facilities" law that requires developers to pay to widen intersections and roads around new developments, but makes no provision for safe pedestrian (or bicycle) facilities.


Bus stop on Pennsylvania Avenue. Photo from Google Street View.
Therefore, many areas are very unsafe to pedestrians. Along Pennsylvania Avenue and other major routes in many suburban jurisdictions, there are bus stops along the side of the road, but no crosswalks, or even much of any safe space for people to stand out of the way of speeding cars.

When someone gets hit crossing a street to reach stores, neighborhoods, or one of these bus stops, police simply dismiss the issue, saying the pedestrian was not in a crosswalk and is therefore at fault, case closed.

Maryland's road safety chief, Vernon Betkey, Jr., was the one who blamed distracted pedestrians and public policy encouraging outdoor activity for rising road deaths. Maybe this lawsuit will push Betkey and other state leaders to take the design of the state's major roads more seriously.

It's not ideal for public policy to be made through tort law, but if that's what it takes to make states pay attention to pedestrian safety, so be it. It's simply not acceptable to design areas that are massively hostile to pedestrians, provide no alternatives, and then just shrug when pedestrians die because of the poor design.

Public Spaces


Looks pretty, but try walking there

The new Chevy Chase Bank on Fairfax Boulevard and Warwick Avenue was approved by Fairfax City shortly after completion of the excellent Fairfax Boulevard Master Plan in 2007. The new building, on the site of one of the Boulevard's many foundering or former furniture showrooms, has several good features. There's a pocket park. A nice wide sidewalk with a bench and trees will, over time, provide shade. A well-designed wall buffer pedestrians from the front parking lot. And the building sports a handsome Neoclassical front.


Nice facade and sidewalk, but...

But these "human scale" features are just a tease. They make the site more welcome to someone who is actually present there rather than behind a windshield, but there is no pedestrian access from the sidewalk. A parking lot separates the building from the street. The building's two entrances front the parking lot and larger shopping plaza on one side, and the drive-through area on the other.


... there's a parking lot in the way.
The recently approved Fairfax Pointe project has similar hints at human-scale, pedestrian-oriented design, but also falls short in some important ways. This planned one-story retail building at the confluence of Fairfax Boulevard, Route 29, and Route 236, whose expected tenants include a restaurant and small grocery, will present a false front at Route 236 and have entrances on this street, but the main entrance will be from the parking lot on Fairfax Boulevard. Most of the site is taken up by surface parking.

Will people walk there? The planned uses are neighborhood-oriented, and the Fairchester and Warren Woods neighborhoods are within easy walking distance. But the design, as well as conditions on 236 and Fairfax Boulevard, are much less conducive to walking, bicycling, and shopping than they could be. The architects could have designed the prioject more intentionally to encourage walking trips and reduce traffic on these extremely clogged arterials.

Let's hope future projects on the Boulevard are more closely aligned with the creative vision of the master plan.

Public Spaces


North Capitol study plans "gateway", disappoints neighbors

The "North Capitol Street Urban Design & Transportation Study," sponsored by the Office of Planning, DDOT and NCPC, aims to to transform the freeway-like North Capitol street into an attractive gateway to DC from the north. At a public meeting last night, though, neighbors mostly heaped criticism OP for the narrow scope of the study and for their other frustrations with DC's land use and transportation decisionmaking.

The study focuses on the stretch of North Capitol Street between Hawaii Ave and Michigan Ave, where it passes by the Washington Hospital Center, the Armed Forces Retirement Home, and Catholic University. This stretch is currently a limited access freeway, with a prominent cloverleaf at the interchange between North Capitol and Irving Street. It's designed to funnel people downtown, but severely limits east-west connectivity. There are also no pedestrian, bicycle or transit facilities going north-south through this stretch. The freeway configuration is inhospitable to pedestrians and encourages unsafe driving. Traffic ought to move at city speeds rather than freeway speeds.

Further, the nearby institutions (AFRH, WHA and CUA) generally focus inwards. Even the condominium and apartment communities off Michigan Ave have a very suburban design removed from the street grid.


A wasteful use of land in the middle of DC. View larger map.

The study team from EEK Architects acknowledged these issues hopes to turn North Capitol into a symbolic entryway into the downtown core from the north. They talked about creating civic spaces, establishing a unique identity, exploring alternatives to the cloverleaf, and creating a more urban, pedestrian-oriented and transit-supportive North Capitol Street. They are looking to East Capitol Street and Rock Creek Parkway for examples. Both move a lot of traffic but also create character for the area. This is only the beginning a 12-week study, so the presentation was sparse on specific details.

After the presentation, the discussion quickly devolved into complaints, and outright anger in some cases. Many neighbors had high hopes, based on the meeting announcement, that the study was going to look at the area as a whole, including the Brookland/CUA and Georgia Ave/Petworth Metro stations, potential for cross-town light rail service, bicycle lanes, and more. After badgering the officials, attendees realized that the study focuses very narrowly on the cloverleaf and won't address many of these larger issues.

Area residents also expressed clear frustration at the lack of communication between the OP and elected ANCs. Brooklanders, in particular, complained about communication. Much of this stems from their ongoing struggle with government agencies to bury the power lines along 12th Street. There are also 6 million square feet of proposed development in the area, currently in various stages of the planning process. This includes including CUA South Campus, the Armed Forces Retirement Home, the McMillan Plant, and Washington Hospital Center, among others.

With traffic already heavy around North Capitol, residents wanted to see a more comprehensive approach to these current problems. Otherwise, they're sure to get worse as these developments break ground.

Pedestrians


Historic post preservation: "Ghost Town"

[Autoposted while I'm in France]


Photo by barxtux on Flickr.

While I'm not in Washington DC, let's see what an earlier incarnation of myself wrote when I visited Washington DC almost exactly three years ago:

I arrived in our nation's capital yesterday. It took significantly longer to get from Dulles Airport to my hotel (2 1/4 hours) than to fly all the way from Boston (1 1/2 hours). I had to wait for the shuttle bus from the concourse to the main terminal to arrive, then longer for it to leave, then in line for the SuperShuttle, then 15 minutes for the SuperShuttle to leave - and then after all that, you're way the heck out in Virginia and have to drive to DC!

But most striking about DC is the lack of people out on the streets. We met some folks at a bar near Dupont Circle, one of DC's hottest districts, and in the middle of a Sunday afternoon there were very few people walking around. Then, this morning, we rode the Metro to Downtown, and at 8:15 am, there were almost no people on the streets there either. Where are the people? In any neighborhood with bars and restaurants in New York or Boston or San Francisco, the sidewalks are pretty full on a Sunday afternoon, and in the business district of any of those cities, it's nonstop pedestrian dodging during rush hour on Monday morning.

Maybe all the people are at the Lincoln Memorial. That was packed, even at 11 pm on a Sunday night.

Have things changed, or not? I don't think I'd say Dupont is dead on a Sunday, at least not anymore. Downtown is still pretty quiet most of the time, unfortunately. And Dulles is still really damn far away!

Parking


Positive resident activism: Shell no!

Shell wants to build a new gas station at the corner of 12th 14th St and Maryland Avenue, NE, one block from the H Street corridor and the future streetcar. Residents are organizing to promote using that site for a business that better contributes to the walkable retail district they want for the areaa restaurant, daycare, flower shop, or almost anything else.


Shell station on Connecticut Avenue. Photo by M.V. Jantzen.

The "Great Streets" program is specifically trying to transform H Street into a lively, walkable retail and entertainment area. A gas station pushes the neighborhood the opposite way, creating a more suburban strip-mall feel. Besides, there are already three gas stations in the area.

Unfortunately, gas stations are a permitted use in that zone (hence the three already there), but this project requires a public space permit as well. In many if not most blocks in DC, the private property line is not at the sidewalk, but farther back. For example, my property line runs directly through the middle of my front stairs, making half my front yard private and half public. In many blocks, the bay window protrusions of the houses actually extend into the public space. (Here's more about public space from the Capitol Hill Restoration Society).

Shell plans to build the station on their property, but would use the substantial public space between their property and the street as paved area for cars to park and access the station. The public space is nearly as large as the property itself. By using it, they give DDOT the opportunity to oppose this auto-oriented use, just as they are with the Van Ness Walgreens.

The ANC asked the Deputy Mayor for Planning and Economic Development to support an alternate use here, but they declined, citing "the interest of encouraging new investments across the District from various business types." ANC Commissioner Bill Schultheiss replied:

What I don't understand is how your office sees a gas station at this corner lot fitting into the "Great Streets" initiative. I am troubled by the idea that any development is better than no development implied by Mr. Albert's response. That is a false choice. There are other interested buyers of this property which would be more than happy to build a project that meets the goals of the Great Streets program.
Opponents of the gas station have a very snazzy site, "Shell No!" The project will come before DDOT for public space review on September 24th and before the BZA on October 14th.
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